michigan (45k) vs. chicago

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UnamSanctam
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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby UnamSanctam » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:06 pm

Stay on the UChi WL. I am a massive Michigan troll, but Chicago is worth it.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby dinamo88 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:28 pm

Thanks for the input everyone!

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 09042014 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:52 pm

Nobody wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Uchi has undergrad lingerie parties. That's a plus.


Full of Uchi undergrads.


The girls were surprisingly not ugly. The guys were ugly, weak looking children. I think a normal guy could clean up there.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 09042014 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:56 pm

Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:58 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


I'd agree. Chicago is slightly better but you need to figure out how much you're willing to pay for that edge. If you don't want to live in Chicago especially...

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 09042014 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:59 pm

blowhard wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


I'd agree. Chicago is slightly better but you need to figure out how much you're willing to pay for that edge. If you don't want to live in Chicago especially...


Hyde Park isn't actually in Chicago, it's in Gary, IN.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


I'd agree. Chicago is slightly better but you need to figure out how much you're willing to pay for that edge. If you don't want to live in Chicago especially...


Hyde Park isn't actually in Chicago, it's in Gary, IN.


I meant after graduation. I may be wrong but I feel like Chicago's edge is much greater in the Chicago area than if you want to move to other markets.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 09042014 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:17 pm

blowhard wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
blowhard wrote:
I'd agree. Chicago is slightly better but you need to figure out how much you're willing to pay for that edge. If you don't want to live in Chicago especially...


Hyde Park isn't actually in Chicago, it's in Gary, IN.


I meant after graduation. I may be wrong but I feel like Chicago's edge is much greater in the Chicago area than if you want to move to other markets.


I doubt it. If anything it feels like the edge is smaller in the city.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


The difference in placement is not "pretty modest." It's not gigantic, but I think it's absolutely worth an extra $55k (judging by all my conversations with people who did OCI at Michigan and people who did OCI at UChicago).

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:30 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


The difference in placement is not "pretty modest." It's not gigantic, but I think it's absolutely worth an extra $55k (judging by all my conversations with people who did OCI at Michigan and people who did OCI at UChicago).


Depends on what OP wants to do. If he wants PI, it's not worth $55K. Nor if he wants a secondary market. Even if he wants BigLaw...it depends on the market. Not sure who you were talking to here...but OCI wasn't that bad.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 09042014 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:31 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


The difference in placement is not "pretty modest." It's not gigantic, but I think it's absolutely worth an extra $55k (judging by all my conversations with people who did OCI at Michigan and people who did OCI at UChicago).


I can't estimate within anything more than +/- 20% of placement at my school, I doubt you can do it at two schools accurately.

What exactly do you mean it's worth an extra 55K. Do you think 10% more big law is worth 55K? 20%?

Based on historical data, the difference is fairly modest.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:34 pm

blowhard wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


The difference in placement is not "pretty modest." It's not gigantic, but I think it's absolutely worth an extra $55k (judging by all my conversations with people who did OCI at Michigan and people who did OCI at UChicago).


Depends on what OP wants to do. If he wants PI, it's not worth $55K. Nor if he wants a secondary market. Even if he wants BigLaw...it depends on the market. Not sure who you were talking to here...but OCI wasn't that bad.


It wasn't that bad, but I think there was a substantial difference.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:39 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


The difference in placement is not "pretty modest." It's not gigantic, but I think it's absolutely worth an extra $55k (judging by all my conversations with people who did OCI at Michigan and people who did OCI at UChicago).


I can't estimate within anything more than +/- 20% of placement at my school, I doubt you can do it at two schools accurately.

What exactly do you mean it's worth an extra 55K. Do you think 10% more big law is worth 55K? 20%?

Based on historical data, the difference is fairly modest.


It is not only a blanket X% shot at biglaw, but it's also a better shot at the more prestigious firms. I don't know how it was historically. All I can say is that, after extensive discussions with a ton of people at both schools, I would advise anybody to take UChicago over UMichigan with $55,000, especially if they wanted biglaw. And I think the insider OCI material provided by the difference OCS's backs that up.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:47 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Michigan is 10K cheaper than U of C over the 3 years just because tuition and living expenses are cheaper. That's 55K less. Assuming the difference in placement is pretty modest, I'm not sure why everyone is saying "OMG U OF CHICAGO!"

I'd probably go Michigan, but I think it's pretty much a tie in terms of cost/benefit.


The difference in placement is not "pretty modest." It's not gigantic, but I think it's absolutely worth an extra $55k (judging by all my conversations with people who did OCI at Michigan and people who did OCI at UChicago).


I can't estimate within anything more than +/- 20% of placement at my school, I doubt you can do it at two schools accurately.

What exactly do you mean it's worth an extra 55K. Do you think 10% more big law is worth 55K? 20%?

Based on historical data, the difference is fairly modest.


It is not only a blanket X% shot at biglaw, but it's also a better shot at the more prestigious firms. I don't know how it was historically. All I can say is that, after extensive discussions with a ton of people at both schools, I would advise anybody to take UChicago over UMichigan with $55,000, especially if they wanted biglaw. And I think the insider OCI material provided by the difference OCS's backs that up.


If you're a prestige whore sure. But, our BigLaw placement wasn't that far off Chicago's. Do they have more firms from Chicago? Sure, its easy to visit the OCI of a school in your back yard. How that translates to actual positions...we'll have to see when the data comes out. You're basing your assessment on a very small portion of the picture.

Not to mention, its not $55K. $55K in today's money is a lot different when you factor in the interest on that $55K and the loss of income that could have been generated on the $ going to pay that $55K off. I'm too lazy to do the math...but you're probably looking at $150-200K+ on a 30-year plan.

I'm not saying Michigan is the clear choice...but neither is Chicago. You're making a very broad declaration based largely on speculation and assumption.

Edit: Ok, I did some math. On a 30-year plan, that $55K is roughly $140K in total payments. Even at a 4% return, the loss of income on that $55K is another $178K. Granted, thats as if you had the full $55K to invest today...but clearly the numbers make the question much much larger than a mere $55K.
Last edited by 03121202698008 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:57 pm

blowhard wrote:If you're a prestige whore sure. You probably had a better shot at #s 1-5 after transferring. But, our BigLaw placement wasn't that far off Chicago's. Do they have more firms from Chicago? Sure, its easy to visit the OCI of a school in your back yard. How that translates to actual positions...we'll have to see when the data comes out. You're basing your assessment on a very small portion of the picture.

Not to mention, its not $55K. $55K in today's money is a lot different when you factor in the interest on that $55K and the loss of income that could have been generated on the $ going to pay that $55K off. I'm too lazy to do the math...but you're probably looking at $150-200K+ on a 30-year plan.

I'm not saying Michigan is the clear choice...but neither is Chicago. You're making a very broad declaration based largely on speculation and assumption.


You don't have to be a prestige whore to realize that some of the better exit options exist at the more prestigious firms. I think the latest data had the difference in biglaw placement at 16 to 17 percent, which is pretty significant. Unfortunately, I don't think UMich releases comprehensive data on where everybody is going, so it would be tough to compare vault ranges, etc. All I have to go on in that regard are my numerous conversations with people in terms of their offers, the fact that people at UChicago were able to secure more interview slots at OCI, etc. (And who the hell does a 30-year plan to pay back loans?)

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:01 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
blowhard wrote:If you're a prestige whore sure. But, our BigLaw placement wasn't that far off Chicago's. Do they have more firms from Chicago? Sure, its easy to visit the OCI of a school in your back yard. How that translates to actual positions...we'll have to see when the data comes out. You're basing your assessment on a very small portion of the picture.

Not to mention, its not $55K. $55K in today's money is a lot different when you factor in the interest on that $55K and the loss of income that could have been generated on the $ going to pay that $55K off. I'm too lazy to do the math...but you're probably looking at $150-200K+ on a 30-year plan.

I'm not saying Michigan is the clear choice...but neither is Chicago. You're making a very broad declaration based largely on speculation and assumption.


You don't have to be a prestige whore to realize that some of the better exit options exist at the more prestigious firms. I think the latest data had the difference in biglaw placement at 16 to 17 percent, which is pretty significant. Unfortunately, I don't think UMich releases comprehensive data on where everybody is going, so it would be tough to compare vault ranges, etc. All I have to go on in that regard are my numerous conversations with people in terms of their offers, the fact that people at UChicago were able to secure more interview slots at OCI, etc. (And who the hell does a 30-year plan to pay back loans?)


A large large number of people do 30 year plans...even in Big Law. I'm not sure I'd pay $55K for 16% better placement. Nor does that factor in self-selection of people who didn't want BigLaw. You're assuming an equal number at both schools bid in OCI. Do you have any idea how big the NoCI party was this year? I can think of like 25 people off the top of my head that didn't even do OCI.

Nor at the exit options that different from the #5 firm to the #50 firm. TLS perceptions are skewed.

Edit: Even on a 10 year plan, that $55K is really $85K in payments...without even factoring in the lost TVM.
Last edited by 03121202698008 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:03 pm

blowhard wrote:A large large number of people do 30 year plans...even in Big Law.


Really? Are they trying to maximize their short term disposable income so they can have a share of the models and bottles?

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:05 pm

bk1 wrote:
blowhard wrote:A large large number of people do 30 year plans...even in Big Law.


Really? Are they trying to maximize their short term disposable income so they can have a share of the models and bottles?


More like most people's CoL rises to match their increased income. Even at $160K...a lot of people don't have $2K a month to throw at loans. A lot of people assume they won't stay in BigLaw forever and they'd rather be sitting on exit-cash to pay loan payments and CoL instead of having no loan payment but nothing to cover CoL.

I didn't say it made fiscal sense...just that people did it.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 09042014 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:10 pm

I bet the V10 advantage at U of C is better. But you still need to have v10 grades at U of C to take advantage of it. From a transfer perspective, that's probably how you should look at it.

But if you talking about a 0L, you gotta assume median or worse. That V10 advantage ain't worth shit then.

And then you gotta talk about how much getting V10 over a V30 is even worth. I'm not sure how you quantify that.

55K is at least a year's net increase in worth of a big lawl associate in Man-Fucking-Hattan. And in big law you only get 3-5 years of that.

It's a tough call, but there is no clear answer. And michigan is giving 45K because they know they are competing with CCN. That's the market rate for pulling CCN students. That might give some indication of the value, but probably not.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby IAFG » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:14 pm

blowhard wrote:
bk1 wrote:
blowhard wrote:A large large number of people do 30 year plans...even in Big Law.


Really? Are they trying to maximize their short term disposable income so they can have a share of the models and bottles?


More like most people's CoL rises to match their increased income. Even at $160K...a lot of people don't have $2K a month to throw at loans. A lot of people assume they won't stay in BigLaw forever and they'd rather be sitting on exit-cash to pay loan payments and CoL instead of having no loan payment but nothing to cover CoL.

I didn't say it made fiscal sense...just that people did it.

Even if you have it, that might not be what you want to spend it on. It's been hashed out before on TLS, but it boils down to, people value risk and liquidity differently.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby skers » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:30 am

Since we have Mich students ITT, anyone (at least anonymously in the employment forum) want to supply OCI data from summer 2011 so we can compare placement between Mich and Chicago ITE?

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:05 am

TemporarySaint wrote:Since we have Mich students ITT, anyone (at least anonymously in the employment forum) want to supply OCI data from summer 2011 so we can compare placement between Mich and Chicago ITE?


Schools haven't released this information yet....it won't be updated until closer to OCI this year. The problem is, Michigan only provides information from the past 5 years combined...so there is no comparison of ITE. The information supplied also only shows # of offers...not number of acceptances or unique students offered. Finally, the information doesn't reflect how many students opted out of OCI altogether...which is a substantial # at Michigan.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby smokeylarue » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:17 am

Haven't read any of this thread, but UChicago is definitely worth an extra 50k, especially ITE. Their placement percentages are insane.

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby skers » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:02 pm

blowhard wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:Since we have Mich students ITT, anyone (at least anonymously in the employment forum) want to supply OCI data from summer 2011 so we can compare placement between Mich and Chicago ITE?


Schools haven't released this information yet....it won't be updated until closer to OCI this year. The problem is, Michigan only provides information from the past 5 years combined...so there is no comparison of ITE. The information supplied also only shows # of offers...not number of acceptances or unique students offered. Finally, the information doesn't reflect how many students opted out of OCI altogether...which is a substantial # at Michigan.


Summer 2011, OCI 2010, would still be available, but I forgot that Michigan's reporting method makes it relatively impossible to compare.

From last year's Chicago OCI data we have 72% of those eligible for OCI grabbing NLJ250 positions, with 93% of that being v100. I'm curious if Michigan is close to that. Historically, we have a 10-15% difference in nlj250 placement. That may not seem like a lot, but that's still 35-55 people.

Also, is self-selection at Michigan out of obi really that profound?

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Re: michigan (45k) vs. chicago

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:17 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
blowhard wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:Since we have Mich students ITT, anyone (at least anonymously in the employment forum) want to supply OCI data from summer 2011 so we can compare placement between Mich and Chicago ITE?


Schools haven't released this information yet....it won't be updated until closer to OCI this year. The problem is, Michigan only provides information from the past 5 years combined...so there is no comparison of ITE. The information supplied also only shows # of offers...not number of acceptances or unique students offered. Finally, the information doesn't reflect how many students opted out of OCI altogether...which is a substantial # at Michigan.


Summer 2011, OCI 2010, would still be available, but I forgot that Michigan's reporting method makes it relatively impossible to compare.

From last year's Chicago OCI data we have 72% of those eligible for OCI grabbing NLJ250 positions, with 93% of that being v100. I'm curious if Michigan is close to that. Historically, we have a 10-15% difference in nlj250 placement. That may not seem like a lot, but that's still 35-55 people.

Also, is self-selection at Michigan out of obi really that profound?


I can think of at least 10 of the 90 people in my section who didn't do OCI for one reason or another. (Mainly because they wanted PI, but also people who solely wanted secondary markets.) I can think of another 10-15 that didn't do OCI from other sections off the top of my head. If that number extrapolates...which it roughly should since sections are pretty balanced...that makes up most of the placement difference.

Anecdotally, I only know of one person who did OCI and doesn't have a job....and his grades put him roughly bottom 10%. I'm sure there are others I don't know of...

Edit: Thought of one more without a job...someone who is median but has a PI background and flat-out told firms he was only looking for a job for a few years to pay off loans. Not sure how you'd account for such lack of judgments from the PI people who still bid.

Edit2: I also love that the assumption is that OP wants BigLaw. He never clarified. If the difference is 10%, thats a lot, but still not necessarily worth an additional $55K for the chance. Whether it is or not depends a lot on OP's circumstances and goals. For example, if OP only wants BigLaw for a couple of years and then to do something else...that's at least an additional year you'd have to work BL. With interest and TVM, its actually much more $. $55K may not seem like a lot...but it actually is.




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