So, ummmm all things being equal...

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which looks better?

Washington and Lee
22
48%
Minnesota
24
52%
 
Total votes: 46

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ThreeRivers
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So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:01 am

Scholly offers are equal / I wouldn't mind living in VA or MN, but don't have connections at either

Which employment statistics look better for me?

http://www.law.umn.edu/careers/career-f ... stics.html

OR

http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Career%20 ... howPGF.pdf

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ThreeRivers
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:04 am

MN has 41% private to W&L 32.4%
Of those, 50% in MN end up in firm that is larger than 101, compared to 41% in W&L

BUT, W&L has slight edge on clerkships (19.8% to 16%), government (19.8% to 9%). and academia (9% to 2%)

MN has the edge in only 2% are unreported (W&L has 4.6%) unreported

I'm unsure on what I want for my career goals yet...

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johansantana21
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby johansantana21 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:06 am

lawschooltransparency.com

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ThreeRivers
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:10 am

johansantana21 wrote:lawschooltransparency.com

Thanks bro... except those are outdated, and both of these actually provide a ton of info (amount reporting / how many workers per firm, etc). These schools provide more info than LST

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johansantana21
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby johansantana21 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:12 am

ThreeRivers wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:lawschooltransparency.com

Thanks bro... except those are outdated, and both of these actually provide a ton of info (amount reporting / how many workers per firm, etc). More so than LST


Those stats seem inflated.

Private firm doesn't matter much. You want to know what the salary is for these jobs which LST provides.

Not to mention, clerkship #'s are way useless since only A3 clerkships are ones that really matter.

Not to mention, 9% into academia? That's gotta be some liberal interpretation of the word academia...

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ThreeRivers
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:19 am

Yea, the salaries are inflated in that most aren't reporting salaries (of course it says that in very small print)

I was under assumption that one can pretty much guess that umn does better in private sector since they're getting jobs from bigger firms than w&l, and have a high jd required to go with that... Is this assumption correct?

Yea, w&l's other numbers look more impressive, but might be too hard to believe (9% in academia)

Paul Campos
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby Paul Campos » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:06 am

When you see "academia" as a category in law school placement stats this means "hired on a short-term hourly basis by the graduates' own school for purposes of the NALP reporting window."*


*Statement does not apply to Yale Law School.

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Nelson
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:39 am

Are these both at sticker? Because they're terrible at sticker and relocating for either of them is not worth it even with a big scholarship.

Not sure why W&L keeps coming up on this forum lately. I guess they're throwing around money. Take a closer look at their employment stats and notice that 51/123 are "post-grad fellows" at graduation, meaning they're employed by W&L. Add the 8 people who are actually unemployed and almost 50% of the class doesn't have permanent employment at graduation.

Minnesota looks better based on employment stats, but I still don't think a school with no national reach that feeds into a small midwest market is a good deal either.

srfngdd6
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby srfngdd6 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:11 am

i chose Minnesota its primary market (Minny/St Paul) is largely dominated by UMN as opposed to W&L which has stiff competition and if you do really well UMN could get you to Chicago

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Nelson
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:15 am

srfngdd6 wrote:if you do really well UMN could get you to Chicago

I will defer to the resident Chicago experts, but I'm pretty sure that this is no longer the case. I've read that UMN sent only a couple people total to UChi biglaw in recent years.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby Doorkeeper » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:19 am

Nelson wrote:Are these both at sticker? Because they're terrible at sticker and relocating for either of them is not worth it even with a big scholarship.


.

"all things being equal..." needs to mean that both schools gave you 20-30k/year, or this is a completely different calculation.

srfngdd6
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby srfngdd6 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:27 am

Nelson wrote:
srfngdd6 wrote:if you do really well UMN could get you to Chicago

I will defer to the resident Chicago experts, but I'm pretty sure that this is no longer the case. I've read that UMN sent only a couple people total to UChi biglaw in recent years.


Probably credited however I would say mor UMN kids get to Chicago than W&L kids get to DC

keg411
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby keg411 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:36 am

Go to a school in a market where you have connections. "I don't think I'd mind working in x place" is really stupid.

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Grizz
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby Grizz » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:15 pm

keg411 wrote:Go to a school in a market where you have connections. "I don't think I'd mind working in x place" is really stupid.

Credited. Welcome to ITE, bro.

MrAnon
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:19 pm

Indeed, it sounds like you are going with the "best school I got into" choice and this is wrong wrong wrong at this level of school. You relocate for schools in the T14. You do not relocate for these schools. These are localish/regionalish schools with unclear employment prospects. Not destination schools.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:41 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:
Nelson wrote:Are these both at sticker? Because they're terrible at sticker and relocating for either of them is not worth it even with a big scholarship.


.

"all things being equal..." needs to mean that both schools gave you 20-30k/year, or this is a completely different calculation.

Which they both did... idk why this thread suddenly seemed to assume I was paying sticker when the OP made a statement about scholarship offers lol

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ThreeRivers
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:47 pm

I'm from Western PA, so I guess my market is Pittsburgh

Pitt gave me a really disappointing scholly offer, and even with in-state / smaller tuition it ends up costing me almost exactly the same to attend these 2 schools...I know its not all rankings, but that would mean a drop from a school ranked 20 to a school ranked somewhere in 71-76

Pitt's employment statistics are REALLY scary

Also I don't know anyone in the legal industry in Pittsburgh... I grew up in a small town about 50 minutes South of Pittsburgh in a HORRIBLE high school, etc.. Most of the people I know from growing up there didn't amount to anything in life, so I'm not so sure how good my "connections" are there either

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Nelson
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:56 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:I'm from Western PA, so I guess my market is Pittsburgh

Pitt gave me a really disappointing scholly offer, and even with in-state / smaller tuition it ends up costing me almost exactly the same to attend these 2 schools...I know its not all rankings, but that would mean a drop from a school ranked 20 to a school ranked somewhere in 71-76

Pitt's employment statistics are REALLY scary

Also I don't know anyone in the legal industry in Pittsburgh... I grew up in a small town about 50 minutes South of Pittsburgh in a HORRIBLE high school, etc.. Most of the people I know from growing up there didn't amount to anything in life, so I'm not so sure how good my "connections" are there either

Not sure what your numbers are but retake is TCR.

UMN isn't worth 100k and relocating, whatever it's USNWR rank.

MrAnon
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:58 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:I'm from Western PA, so I guess my market is Pittsburgh

Pitt gave me a really disappointing scholly offer, and even with in-state / smaller tuition it ends up costing me almost exactly the same to attend these 2 schools...I know its not all rankings, but that would mean a drop from a school ranked 20 to a school ranked somewhere in 71-76

Pitt's employment statistics are REALLY scary

Also I don't know anyone in the legal industry in Pittsburgh... I grew up in a small town about 50 minutes South of Pittsburgh in a HORRIBLE high school, etc.. Most of the people I know from growing up there didn't amount to anything in life, so I'm not so sure how good my "connections" are there either



Forget the rankings. You are comparing the best school in Minnesota to the best school in Southwestern Virginia to the best school in Western Pennsylvania. That is the only way you should organize these in your head. Has it always been your dream to go to the best law school in Minnesota?? I understand though. It doesn't sound like you have any inside track into Pittsburgh. However imagine yourself sitting in a strange judge's chambers interviewing for a clerkship job. You could be doing this in Pittsburgh or you could be doing this in Duluth. The Duluth judge is going to say "Why Minnesota". The Pittsburgh judge is going to say "What do you think about the Steelers chances". Which convo is easier? which one is a convo and which one sounds more like an interrogation? That's the future.

Maybe look at Ohio schools if you don't want to retake.

BeenDidThat
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby BeenDidThat » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:59 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:I'm from Western PA, so I guess my market is Pittsburgh

Pitt gave me a really disappointing scholly offer, and even with in-state / smaller tuition it ends up costing me almost exactly the same to attend these 2 schools...I know its not all rankings, but that would mean a drop from a school ranked 20 to a school ranked somewhere in 71-76

Pitt's employment statistics are REALLY scary

Also I don't know anyone in the legal industry in Pittsburgh... I grew up in a small town about 50 minutes South of Pittsburgh in a HORRIBLE high school, etc.. Most of the people I know from growing up there didn't amount to anything in life, so I'm not so sure how good my "connections" are there either


With any of those schools, you are gonna have to hustle to get any job. Biglaw, while possible, is a highly risky bet from any of them. Pitt isn't, in the abstract, as good a school as Minn or W&L, but all three of the schools are regional, not national, schools. I think you'll find your best employment opportunities would come from the Western PA area, even if you aren't from Pittsburgh and don't have much of a professional network in the area. Plenty of attorneys are former small-town folks, and they will have a real affinity for others from similar circumstances. On the other hand, Virginians and Minnesotans are more likely to wonder what the hell you're doing there (Virginians more so than Minnesotans). Pennsylvanians, especially of the Western variety, are more likely try to look out for someone they consider one of their own, which I think you qualify as.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:08 pm

Nelson wrote:
ThreeRivers wrote:I'm from Western PA, so I guess my market is Pittsburgh

Pitt gave me a really disappointing scholly offer, and even with in-state / smaller tuition it ends up costing me almost exactly the same to attend these 2 schools...I know its not all rankings, but that would mean a drop from a school ranked 20 to a school ranked somewhere in 71-76

Pitt's employment statistics are REALLY scary

Also I don't know anyone in the legal industry in Pittsburgh... I grew up in a small town about 50 minutes South of Pittsburgh in a HORRIBLE high school, etc.. Most of the people I know from growing up there didn't amount to anything in life, so I'm not so sure how good my "connections" are there either

Not sure what your numbers are but retake is TCR.

UMN isn't worth 100k and relocating, whatever it's USNWR rank.

UMN wouldn't cost me 100 k and

I had a 0.00 GPA one semester in my freshman year when my family experienced multiple deaths / I stopped going to any class without ever withdrawaling.. which permanently fucked my GPA

Obviously I wrote an addendum about this / wanted to say (look bro I have T14 numbers if you take away 1 semester that I didn't even really attend), but obviously lawschools are rankings whores so none of that matter lol

I appreciate all advice and I'm not trying to disagree just that it's hard to re-take a GPA lol (I also over-performed on my real LSAT somehow compared to all my many PT's

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20130312
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby 20130312 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:14 pm

For all of those that keep speculating about GPA, LSAT, scholarships, etc.:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/threerivers

Just go look at the LSN. Geez.

srfngdd6
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby srfngdd6 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:18 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:For all of those that keep speculating about GPA, LSAT, scholarships, etc.:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/threerivers

Just go look at the LSN. Geez.



Surprised you got no money from Temple if you could swing some that could be an option if you are open to practicing in philly

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ThreeRivers
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:24 pm

srfngdd6 wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:For all of those that keep speculating about GPA, LSAT, scholarships, etc.:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/threerivers

Just go look at the LSN. Geez.



Surprised you got no money from Temple if you could swing some that could be an option if you are open to practicing in philly

Just updated that one.. yea that's the only one not exact, but they gave 3.xxx (can't remember) k a year

Definitely surprised me

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Nelson
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Re: So, ummmm all things being equal...

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:04 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:
Nelson wrote:
ThreeRivers wrote:I'm from Western PA, so I guess my market is Pittsburgh

Pitt gave me a really disappointing scholly offer, and even with in-state / smaller tuition it ends up costing me almost exactly the same to attend these 2 schools...I know its not all rankings, but that would mean a drop from a school ranked 20 to a school ranked somewhere in 71-76

Pitt's employment statistics are REALLY scary

Also I don't know anyone in the legal industry in Pittsburgh... I grew up in a small town about 50 minutes South of Pittsburgh in a HORRIBLE high school, etc.. Most of the people I know from growing up there didn't amount to anything in life, so I'm not so sure how good my "connections" are there either

Not sure what your numbers are but retake is TCR.

UMN isn't worth 100k and relocating, whatever it's USNWR rank.

UMN wouldn't cost me 100 k and

I had a 0.00 GPA one semester in my freshman year when my family experienced multiple deaths / I stopped going to any class without ever withdrawaling.. which permanently fucked my GPA

Obviously I wrote an addendum about this / wanted to say (look bro I have T14 numbers if you take away 1 semester that I didn't even really attend), but obviously lawschools are rankings whores so none of that matter lol

I appreciate all advice and I'm not trying to disagree just that it's hard to re-take a GPA lol (I also over-performed on my real LSAT somehow compared to all my many PT's

What are your goals exactly? Given that you're from PA, I would take Pitt with the scholly+instate and live at home before relocating to Minnesota. Your COA with only the 69k is going to be close to 100k at UMN. If you keep your total debt low, I don't think Pitt is that bad a deal. Just recognize that you aren't getting biglaw.

If you have any interest in biglaw, then you need to retake the 167. Get 170+ and you're just another splitter. Your GPA isn't that bad.




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