Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

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iceicebaby
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Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:34 pm

My cycle isn't complete yet, but I figure I would get opinions on this. Please no generic "retake" answers.

My numbers are 3.11/158 and I got into both Seton Hall and Rutgers-Newark. I am not a NJ resident so the Rutgers-Newark would be $34k for the first year and then $22k for the next two years in tuition after establishing residency in NJ (ugh). I got a scholly for $15k/year with a top 50% stipulation at Seton Hall, which would bring the tuition there to $31k/year. The net difference would be about $15k total in tuition as I would probably be living in the same place(s) if I went to either.

My question is which one would you take and why? I am leaning toward Seton Hall currently because I think it's just a much better school and has better facilities, but I know they are very comparable employment-wise and wonder if the extra $15k (which could be $45k or less if I don't meet the stip) is worth it. Thoughts?

Thanks!!!

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby neeko » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:47 pm

iceicebaby wrote:My cycle isn't complete yet, but I figure I would get opinions on this. Please no generic "retake" answers.

My numbers are 3.11/158 and I got into both Seton Hall and Rutgers-Newark. I am not a NJ resident so the Rutgers-Newark would be $34k for the first year and then $22k for the next two years in tuition after establishing residency in NJ (ugh). I got a scholly for $15k/year with a top 50% stipulation at Seton Hall, which would bring the tuition there to $31k/year. The net difference would be about $15k total in tuition as I would probably be living in the same place(s) if I went to either.

My question is which one would you take and why? I am leaning toward Seton Hall currently because I think it's just a much better school and has better facilities, but I know they are very comparable employment-wise and wonder if the extra $15k (which could be $45k or less if I don't meet the stip) is worth it. Thoughts?

Thanks!!!


I don't know which you should choose, but you can get in state the 1st year for RU-N as long as you move there before classes start.

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iceicebaby
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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:50 pm

neeko wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:My cycle isn't complete yet, but I figure I would get opinions on this. Please no generic "retake" answers.

My numbers are 3.11/158 and I got into both Seton Hall and Rutgers-Newark. I am not a NJ resident so the Rutgers-Newark would be $34k for the first year and then $22k for the next two years in tuition after establishing residency in NJ (ugh). I got a scholly for $15k/year with a top 50% stipulation at Seton Hall, which would bring the tuition there to $31k/year. The net difference would be about $15k total in tuition as I would probably be living in the same place(s) if I went to either.

My question is which one would you take and why? I am leaning toward Seton Hall currently because I think it's just a much better school and has better facilities, but I know they are very comparable employment-wise and wonder if the extra $15k (which could be $45k or less if I don't meet the stip) is worth it. Thoughts?

Thanks!!!


I don't know which you should choose, but you can get in state the 1st year for RU-N as long as you move there before classes start.


Really? Are the requirements that easy? Okay well then, I guess the difference is now $24k between the two.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:53 pm

iceicebaby wrote:My cycle isn't complete yet, but I figure I would get opinions on this. Please no generic "retake" answers.

My numbers are 3.11/158 and I got into both Seton Hall and Rutgers-Newark. I am not a NJ resident so the Rutgers-Newark would be $34k for the first year and then $22k for the next two years in tuition after establishing residency in NJ (ugh). I got a scholly for $15k/year with a top 50% stipulation at Seton Hall, which would bring the tuition there to $31k/year. The net difference would be about $15k total in tuition as I would probably be living in the same place(s) if I went to either.

My question is which one would you take and why? I am leaning toward Seton Hall currently because I think it's just a much better school and has better facilities, but I know they are very comparable employment-wise and wonder if the extra $15k (which could be $45k or less if I don't meet the stip) is worth it. Thoughts?

Thanks!!!

Do you really expect to get useful responses from this thread? You have almost 700 posts on TLS.

The answer is Rutgers because of the horrid stip on Seton Hall. Establish residency before you start. Try to negotiate more money. You're going to need to be Federal IBRing that much debt so gun for PI and pray that NJ state govt. doesn't continue their current hiring freezes.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby 20130312 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:54 pm

Nelson wrote:The answer is Rutgers because of the horrid stip on Seton Hall.


Credited

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby neeko » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:56 pm

iceicebaby wrote:
neeko wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:My cycle isn't complete yet, but I figure I would get opinions on this. Please no generic "retake" answers.

My numbers are 3.11/158 and I got into both Seton Hall and Rutgers-Newark. I am not a NJ resident so the Rutgers-Newark would be $34k for the first year and then $22k for the next two years in tuition after establishing residency in NJ (ugh). I got a scholly for $15k/year with a top 50% stipulation at Seton Hall, which would bring the tuition there to $31k/year. The net difference would be about $15k total in tuition as I would probably be living in the same place(s) if I went to either.

My question is which one would you take and why? I am leaning toward Seton Hall currently because I think it's just a much better school and has better facilities, but I know they are very comparable employment-wise and wonder if the extra $15k (which could be $45k or less if I don't meet the stip) is worth it. Thoughts?

Thanks!!!


I don't know which you should choose, but you can get in state the 1st year for RU-N as long as you move there before classes start.


Really? Are the requirements that easy? Okay well then, I guess the difference is now $24k between the two.


Yes, here's what Dean Walton told me:

When you have made your decision to come to law school, you will have to move here before classes start. Once you have a 12-month lease for an apartment in NJ or purchase a home (some people are moving families and do purchase a home), then I can make the changes and you will be instate right from the start (i.e., as of the fall 2012 semester). You lease would have to start before the first day of class. Since you are a graduate student and considered independent, we can do this. This will also apply to moving into on-campus graduate housing – as long as you sign a 12-month contract with our residence halls, we can give you instate right away.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:01 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
Nelson wrote:The answer is Rutgers because of the horrid stip on Seton Hall.


Credited


Is top 50% really that bad of a stip? I mean, if I am bottom 50% there, I should /self.

Anyway, I did not realize that Rutgers would give you in-state for all 3 years if sign a 12-month NJ-based lease before classes begin. That makes this a bit easier, then.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:03 pm

Anyone considering either of these schools should seriously look into the state of the NJ small firm and govt. hiring market right now.

If you're paying anywhere near 6 figures, you're relying on federal IBR (unless you think you're NJ biglaw secure :roll: ) so you need to be in a PI job and there just aren't any. If you're not from the area, find an alum from your undergrad in NJ state govt. and talk to them. It's absolutely brutal.

NJ just hired 33 new DAGs after a 6 year freeze. You want to guess how many applicants they had? You're not just competing with all of the new JDs, you're competing with a ton of experienced lawyers looking to escape unemployment or the grind of small firms.
Last edited by Nelson on Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:04 pm

iceicebaby wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
Nelson wrote:The answer is Rutgers because of the horrid stip on Seton Hall.


Credited


Is top 50% really that bad of a stip? I mean, if I am bottom 50% there, I should /self.

Anyway, I did not realize that Rutgers would give you in-state for all 3 years if sign a 12-month NJ-based lease before classes begin. That makes this a bit easier, then.


Yes it is that bad. You are entering school with a class full of people who made the same grades and LSAT score you did. You are not smarter than any of them them except perhaps marginally so. Any better smarts you have could be outdone by someone who is slightly dumber working that much harder.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:05 pm

From a consumer-cost standpoint, law school in NJ is not a good idea right now. You could do other things with the money.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby 20130312 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:06 pm

Put it this way: there's a 50% chance you will lose your scholarship. If we wanted to do a decision tree economic analysis thingy, that knocks your scholarship down to $7500 a year [.5*15000+(1-.5)*0]. So total amounts would look more like this:

Rutgers = $66k
Seton Hall = $115.5k

For schools with similar job prospects, that is a scary thing.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:13 pm

Nelson wrote:Anyone considering either of these schools should seriously look into the state of the NJ small firm and govt. hiring market right now.

If you're paying anywhere near 6 figures, you're relying on federal IBR (unless you think you're NJ biglaw secure :roll: ) so you need to be in a PI job and there just aren't any. If you're not from the area, find an alum from your undergrad in NJ state govt. and talk to them. It's absolutely brutal.

NJ DAG just hired 33 new attorneys after a 6 year freeze. You want to guess how many applicants they had? You're not just competing with all of the new JDs, you're competing with a ton of experienced lawyers looking to escape unemployment or the grind of small firms.


A lot of this info is useful and certainly pertains to many applicants. However, I am lucky in that I won't have to really rely on conventional student loans or federal IBR and I also have a good deal of work experience and connections with some New York City firms (worked as a paralegal at an NLJ250, but probably have to be at least T14 to be a summer associate there these days). Mostly I just want to go to the best school for the money, which is why UConn is my #1 right now.

InGoodFaith wrote:Put it this way: there's a 50% chance you will lose your scholarship. If we wanted to do a decision tree economic analysis thingy, that knocks your scholarship down to $7500 a year [.5*15000+(1-.5)*0]. So total amounts would look more like this:

Rutgers = $66k
Seton Hall = $115.5k

For schools with similar job prospects, that is a scary thing.


Yeah, that makes total sense. The 50% stipulation is tough. I would never go to Seton Hall at sticker right now, so I suppose the same should be true if there is the chance that I have to. Rutgers looks a lot better to me knowing that I can get all three years at the in-state tuition rate.

MrAnon wrote:From a consumer-cost standpoint, law school in NJ is not a good idea right now. You could do other things with the money.


I would be aiming at the NYC market personally speaking, of course there will be obstacles in doing so coming from Rutgers or Seton Hall. Why do you say going to school in Northern NJ is a bad idea compared to other schools similarly ranked in the Northeast?

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby srfngdd6 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:16 pm

Going to either Rutgers or Seton Hall if you are aiming for NYC probably is not the best decision/investment

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:19 pm

srfngdd6 wrote:Going to either Rutgers or Seton Hall if you are aiming for NYC probably is not the best decision/investment


Why not? They are both on the NLJ's top 50 go-to law school list. They each place a decent number of students (11% to 12%, or about 40 graduates) every year at NLJ250 firms.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby srfngdd6 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:22 pm

iceicebaby wrote:
srfngdd6 wrote:Going to either Rutgers or Seton Hall if you are aiming for NYC probably is not the best decision/investment


Why not? They are both on the NLJ's top 50 go-to law school list. They each place a decent number of students (11% to 12%, or about 40 graduates) every year at NLJ250 firms.


nalp lists only 7-8 NY firms that visit seton hall and around 14 that visit rutgers but just because a firm visits does not mean they are hiring grads alot of the nlj jobs those schools get are in NJ

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:24 pm

iceicebaby wrote:I would be aiming at the NYC market personally speaking, of course there will be obstacles in doing so coming from Rutgers or Seton Hall. Why do you say going to school in Northern NJ is a bad idea compared to other schools similarly ranked in the Northeast?

Schools at this level are regional. Go to Rutgers if you want to work in NJ. Go to UConn if you want to work in CT. Don't go to either if you want to work in NYC. NYC is the most saturated market in the country and has a stable of TT/TTTs of its own, go to one of them if you want to work in NYC.
iceicebaby wrote:Why not? They are both on the NLJ's top 50 go-to law school list. They each place a decent number of students (11% to 12%, or about 40 graduates) every year at NLJ250 firms.

That is the definition of terrible placement and most of those jobs are probably in NJ, not NYC.

I guess you're just trolling or being willfully oblivious if you think Rutgers is a good choice for biglaw. Most Rutgers grads work in govt. or small firms in NJ. This means sticker debt is a bad idea, especially if your goal is NYC biglaw. If you have 100k saved up, there are better ways to spend it.

ETA: And I'm not saying this to bash Rutgers or act like "T14 or don't go" is the only option. Rutgers is a fine option if you want to work in NJ, especially if you're going PT or with a big scholarship.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby bobbyh1919 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:29 pm

Purely for the sake of reinforcement, pick Rutgers over Seton Hall. Those stips are brutal and even as you sit at your computer thinking that top half seems reasonable, every other student who attends will be thinking the exact same thing. Half of you are going to be wrong.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:33 pm

Nelson wrote:
iceicebaby wrote:I would be aiming at the NYC market personally speaking, of course there will be obstacles in doing so coming from Rutgers or Seton Hall. Why do you say going to school in Northern NJ is a bad idea compared to other schools similarly ranked in the Northeast?

Schools at this level are regional. Go to Rutgers if you want to work in NJ. Go to UConn if you want to work in CT. Don't go to either if you want to work in NYC. NYC is the most saturated market in the country and has a stable of TT/TTTs of its own, go to one of them if you want to work in NYC.
iceicebaby wrote:Why not? They are both on the NLJ's top 50 go-to law school list. They each place a decent number of students (11% to 12%, or about 40 graduates) every year at NLJ250 firms.

That is the definition of terrible placement and most of those jobs are probably in NJ, not NYC.

I guess you're just trolling or being willfully oblivious if you think Rutgers is a good choice for biglaw. Most Rutgers grads work in govt. or small firms in NJ. This means sticker debt is a bad idea, especially if your goal is NYC biglaw. If you have 100k saved up, there are better ways to spend it.


Not trolling, guess I'm just oblivious :roll:. The NYC schools are wayyyyy too expensive, especially for TT and TTT. I am not so hell-bent on the NYC legal market per se, but I have experience in it and feel comfortable with being able to get something decent in it. If I can get an NLJ250 job in NJ that pays me well, then so be it. Mostly I just am looking for the cheapest place that will have the best chance at catching me a solid $80k+/year job in CT, NY, NJ, MA, RI, PA, VA, DC, DE or MD.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby srfngdd6 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:47 pm

Not trolling, guess I'm just oblivious :roll:. The NYC schools are wayyyyy too expensive, especially for TT and TTT. I am not so hell-bent on the NYC legal market per se, but I have experience in it and feel comfortable with being able to get something decent in it. If I can get an NLJ250 job in NJ that pays me well, then so be it. Mostly I just am looking for the cheapest place that will have the best chance at catching me a solid $80k+/year job in CT, NY, NJ, MA, RI, PA, VA, DC, DE or MD.[/quote]


UCONN would probably be a better choice than either Rutegers or Seton Hall then although Rutgers in-state isnt a terrible deal

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:50 pm

iceicebaby wrote:
srfngdd6 wrote:Going to either Rutgers or Seton Hall if you are aiming for NYC probably is not the best decision/investment


Why not? They are both on the NLJ's top 50 go-to law school list. They each place a decent number of students (11% to 12%, or about 40 graduates) every year at NLJ250 firms.


Do you understand the concept of percentages? That also means they don't place 88% to 89% of their grads in NLJ250 firms.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby Mr. Somebody » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:52 pm

Why is re-taking not an option? These schools are not worth going to.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:55 pm

iceicebaby wrote:Not trolling, guess I'm just oblivious :roll:. The NYC schools are wayyyyy too expensive, especially for TT and TTT. I am not so hell-bent on the NYC legal market per se, but I have experience in it and feel comfortable with being able to get something decent in it. If I can get an NLJ250 job in NJ that pays me well, then so be it. Mostly I just am looking for the cheapest place that will have the best chance at catching me a solid $80k+/year job in CT, NY, NJ, MA, RI, PA, VA, DC, DE or MD.

If your goal is NLJ250, then the answer is none of the schools mentioned (or any other regional TT). I'm not sure why you're looking at these schools unless you have ties to the specific region and a specific goal for attending law school (beyond "a solid 80k+/year job). /thread

I don't understand what's hard to understand about the fact that regional schools place people in government work and small firms. Neither of those options pay 80k right out of law school. 80k is the salary of a mid-career state government lawyer.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby get it to x » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:10 pm

Recent RU grad (with gainful employment) here. They are essentially the same school as far your exit options for a run of the mill graduate (Median/maybe slightly below, secondary journal with maybe some clinical experience.) From what I've experienced Seton Hall does a better job packaging their graduates than Rutgers does and their alumni network is more cohesive. That's also probably a natural reaction to the absurd amount of debt most of their students are taking on though. Their career services office must be under more fire placement-wise than Rutgers - whose office is basically useless and whose graduates are tailored more towards public sector work.

Also Rutgers is not considered a NY metropolitan area law school within the legal community. The New York market operates on the hierarchy of T-14 + Fordham then local schools (read: St. John's and Brooklyn because they have most expansive and cohesive alumni networks) then everyone else. So you're on par ties-wise with schools that really have little or a weak connection to the market although you're only 20 minutes away.

The New Jersey market works slightly differently. T-14 graduates who have not been successful in getting what they want in New York look to Jersey for the best opportunities. "Prestigious" firms (Lowenstein Sandler, Sills Cummis, etc.) will poach these graduates before even dipping into the local law school pool. (And the amount of new rookie blood they bring in is small to begin with because they've dramatically cut their incoming classes because they've hired seasoned attorneys en masse that were shed from big NYC firms when the recession hit.) If they do dip into the local law school pool they usually pick up the top students in the class who are either on Law Review or Moot Court. Clerkships run the same way except on the Federal level the courts are undergoing a significant amount of turnover with judges who are RU/SHU graduates replacing the old guard Harvard, Yale, Duke judges. However, they are still looking for top students but are more amenable to picking a RU/SHU grad as their clerks.

And yes the number of firms that Rutgers lists on their website is dubious as to their commitment to actually hiring a Rutgers graduate. Some are only there to hire out of Rutgers' Minority Student Program and others will conduct interviews with absolutely no intention of hiring you. You will get a callback just not progress any further and wonder why until you find out later. The firms that usually play these smoke and mirrors games are ones that either have connections to the faculty or normally would pick up a graduate or two when the market was booming. Now it's more of a courtesy than anything else.

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:19 pm

get it to x wrote:Recent RU grad (with gainful employment) here.


Thanks for the info.

Are you working for a small firm or govt.? I'm assuming you have fairly limited debt. Would you say law school was worth it/would you do it again the same way?

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Re: Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $)

Postby tarp » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:32 pm

CUNY in New York is not that expensive. It's actually very cheap.




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