what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

[AreJay711]

IBR, LRAP, and extended graduated repayment is a wonderful thing.

[20160810]

Who doesn’t have debt―aside from trust fund babies and those with parents footing bills? Even with a tuition [scholarship] discount, you are stuck with tuition debt, plus books, moving (in some cases) and three years of living expenses. I would venture a guess that before taking the bar a low-ball debt estimate would be $125K, but probably more. Especially for those living in big expensive northeastern metropolises or anywhere in CA.

Going straight from UG to a $50K job probably works out OK (not living large, but decent). But with law debt piled on UG debt. . .how can you not aim for Big Law or firms where +$75K is entry-level or at least doable (with bonuses, if need be). If ITE continues to be an acronym that is still with us for much longer, the numbers will not add up for a fourth of those in class today. It is possible that, wherever you attend, this year's grad class (as in a third or more) are toast.

If you have a good scholarship and still graduate with $125,000 in debt you're doing something tragically wrong.

[beachbum]

Who doesn’t have debt―aside from trust fund babies and those with parents footing bills? Even with a tuition [scholarship] discount, you are stuck with tuition debt, plus books, moving (in some cases) and three years of living expenses. I would venture a guess that before taking the bar a low-ball debt estimate would be $125K, but probably more. Especially for those living in big expensive northeastern metropolises or anywhere in CA.

Going straight from UG to a $50K job probably works out OK (not living large, but decent). But with law debt piled on UG debt. . .how can you not aim for Big Law or firms where +$75K is entry-level or at least doable (with bonuses, if need be). If ITE continues to be an acronym that is still with us for much longer, the numbers will not add up for a fourth of those in class today. It is possible that, wherever you attend, this year's grad class (as in a third or more) are toast.

If you have a good scholarship and still graduate with $125,000 in debt you're doing something tragically wrong.

Hookers and blow aren't free, bro.

[Sandrew]

Who doesn’t have debt―aside from trust fund babies and those with parents footing bills?

Additional answers (feel free to mix n' match!): Those who worked and saved for several years before law school. Those with spouses (or equivalent) supporting them. Those with significant scholarships.

Wonder no more, grasshopper.

NB: "Trust fund babies" == "those with parents footing the bill," no? Or am I too old and unhip to cop to your newfangled young-speak?

[landla]

Who doesn’t have debt―aside from trust fund babies and those with parents footing bills?

Additional answers (feel free to mix n' match!): Those who worked and saved for several years before law school. Those with spouses (or equivalent) supporting them. Those with significant scholarships.

Wonder no more, grasshopper.

NB: "Trust fund babies" == "those with parents footing the bill," no? Or am I too old and unhip to cop to your newfangled young-speak?

Those with trust funds do not necessarily get that money from their parents. Those whose parents are footing the bill is literally that - their parents are paying, not coming out of the student's account. That was my understanding.

Also, this post made me smile. Thanks.

[landla]

Who doesn’t have debt―aside from trust fund babies and those with parents footing bills? Even with a tuition [scholarship] discount, you are stuck with tuition debt, plus books, moving (in some cases) and three years of living expenses. I would venture a guess that before taking the bar a low-ball debt estimate would be $125K, but probably more. Especially for those living in big expensive northeastern metropolises or anywhere in CA.

Going straight from UG to a $50K job probably works out OK (not living large, but decent). But with law debt piled on UG debt. . .how can you not aim for Big Law or firms where +$75K is entry-level or at least doable (with bonuses, if need be). If ITE continues to be an acronym that is still with us for much longer, the numbers will not add up for a fourth of those in class today. It is possible that, wherever you attend, this year's grad class (as in a third or more) are toast.

If you have a good scholarship and still graduate with $125,000 in debt you're doing something tragically wrong.

I've done the calculations for a few schools in the northeast, which I'm mentioning since it is referenced here. If you don't have to pay tuition, prices for everything increase pretty substantially over the next few years, you live a a decent place with a roommate or two (not rat-infested, not amazing), and you spend a comfortable amount (more than I have any other time I was in school), you will spend less than 60-80k (giving even more fluctuation). I suppose if you add on undergrad loans and/or don't have a full tuition scholarship, you can make it to 125k.

So while at first I was confounded by your number, I am now hoping/guessing that you were accounting for less than full tuition scholarship, undergrad debt, etc. and think that I get your point. Then, depending upon the person, that may make sense. (For instance, I have a school in the northeast that, with the scholarship offered currently, I will graduate from and - including my undergrad, moving, etc. and the previously mentioned cautiously computed numbers - should leave me in less than 125k. I'm sure there are others who are in better positions than myself.)

[Dale]

[I've done the calculations for a few schools in the northeast, which I'm mentioning since it is referenced here. If you don't have to pay tuition, prices for everything increase pretty substantially over the next few years, you live a a decent place with a roommate or two (not rat-infested, not amazing), and you spend a comfortable amount (more than I have any other time I was in school), you will spend less than 60-80k (giving even more fluctuation). I suppose if you add on undergrad loans and/or don't have a full tuition scholarship, you can make it to 125k.

So while at first I was confounded by your number, I am now hoping/guessing that you were accounting for less than full tuition scholarship, undergrad debt, etc. and think that I get your point. Then, depending upon the person, that may make sense. (For instance, I have a school in the northeast that, with the scholarship offered currently, I will graduate from and - including my undergrad, moving, etc. and the previously mentioned cautiously computed numbers - should leave me in less than 125k. I'm sure there are others who are in better positions than myself.)

We're close. Mine is half tuition, but frontloaded. Meaning if I walked tomorrow, the law school debt portion would be reduced to living expenses, moving, books, etc.

That said, half sticker runs $70K, I figure living (over three years) has to be $75K, so one-fiftyish should be my number. The hype―2L SA could produce a meaty income [est. $35K]―that certainly does not seem probable for my 1L summer.

[Veyron]

[I've done the calculations for a few schools in the northeast, which I'm mentioning since it is referenced here. If you don't have to pay tuition, prices for everything increase pretty substantially over the next few years, you live a a decent place with a roommate or two (not rat-infested, not amazing), and you spend a comfortable amount (more than I have any other time I was in school), you will spend less than 60-80k (giving even more fluctuation). I suppose if you add on undergrad loans and/or don't have a full tuition scholarship, you can make it to 125k.

So while at first I was confounded by your number, I am now hoping/guessing that you were accounting for less than full tuition scholarship, undergrad debt, etc. and think that I get your point. Then, depending upon the person, that may make sense. (For instance, I have a school in the northeast that, with the scholarship offered currently, I will graduate from and - including my undergrad, moving, etc. and the previously mentioned cautiously computed numbers - should leave me in less than 125k. I'm sure there are others who are in better positions than myself.)

We're close. Mine is half tuition, but frontloaded. Meaning if I walked tomorrow, the law school debt portion would be reduced to living expenses, moving, books, etc.

That said, half sticker runs $70K, I figure living (over three years) has to be $75K, so one-fiftyish should be my number. The hype―2L SA could produce a meaty income [est. $35K]―that certainly does not seem probable for my 1L summer.

35k if you get a 12 week program at a market paying firm and don't pay taxes what you make.

[Dale]

35k if you get a 12 week program at a market paying firm and don't pay taxes what you make.

Hard to believe they could take much out of $35K. But yeah, there are expenses if you have to commute, etc.

"It's always something."
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[Veyron]

35k if you get a 12 week program at a market paying firm and don't pay taxes what you make.

Hard to believe they could take much out of $35K. But yeah, there are expenses if you have to commute, etc.

"It's always something."
--ImageRemoved--

And if you have to live in MFH for the summer you can expect to take home 20 tops even in this ideal situation. Of course, most summer programs are now 8-10 weeks so ....

[20160810]

35k if you get a 12 week program at a market paying firm and don't pay taxes what you make.

Hard to believe they could take much out of $35K. But yeah, there are expenses if you have to commute, etc.

"It's always something."
--ImageRemoved--

Dude they withhold taxes from your SA paychecks as if you're making $160,000/yr. Granted you're getting most of that back at refund time, but you're not walking away from the summer with $35,000.

[dingbat]

Dude they withhold taxes from your SA paychecks as if you're making $160,000/yr. Granted you're getting most of that back at refund time, but you're not walking away from the summer with $35,000.

You can ask them to adjust your withholding

[Dale]

I wish my biggest problem was how to pay taxes and cover my 1L SA expenses . . . unfortunately a 1L SA is difficult to secure these days.

On topic, IMHO grades are paramount followed by school―or is it the other way around? In any case, Median grades at T-14 = fair shot. The further out from T-14, Median = no shot. This is partially why a "T14 or Don't Go" sentiment exists.

[spleenworship]

I go to a T2 state school. Every year at least half our grads end up working at midsize, boutique, small firms throughout the area. These jobs aren't impossible to get ITE... mostly, I think, because all y'all T14 people are so Biglaw and PI focused. If T14 grads started seriously competing at plaintiff's and crim defense firms in smaller metro areas my schoolmates would possibly be totally boned. Of course, if I was hiring at a small plaintiff's med-mal firm I would wonder why in the hell a Harvard grad wanted to work for me... so I guess that is a double edged sword.

I do think there is a on TLS tendency to conflate all nont14 schools' employment opportunities. It's not like solid T2s have the same fuckery as a Nova or Barry.

That said, what does the other half of the class do?

About 20% go into PI work. The remaining 5% with JD required jobs seem to either be clerking/working the rare biglaw job/or in-house. The other 25% of our class, however.... I don't know, and I hope not to have to find out.... ;p

[Geneva]

Whenever I have IRL conversations about this, someone will always start talking about how he "could've gotten a $60,000/yr. job straight out of undergrad," and usually no one is rude enough to tell him that he's a moron for thinking that. Kids who actually could land a $60K/yr. job out of UG (ChemE's, other engineers with good creds or from top schools, certain very high-end HYP'ers, etc.) would likely not be stupid enough to go to LS.

le sigh

[romothesavior]

Whenever I have IRL conversations about this, someone will always start talking about how he "could've gotten a $60,000/yr. job straight out of undergrad," and usually no one is rude enough to tell him that he's a moron for thinking that. Kids who actually could land a $60K/yr. job out of UG (ChemE's, other engineers with good creds or from top schools, certain very high-end HYP'ers, etc.) would likely not be stupid enough to go to LS.

le sigh

He's basically describing my gf (she makes 60k+ as an entry level programmer). And thank god she wasn't stupid enough to go to law school, because now I have someone to bankroll my dates and nights out.

[IAFG]

Whenever I have IRL conversations about this, someone will always start talking about how he "could've gotten a $60,000/yr. job straight out of undergrad," and usually no one is rude enough to tell him that he's a moron for thinking that. Kids who actually could land a $60K/yr. job out of UG (ChemE's, other engineers with good creds or from top schools, certain very high-end HYP'ers, etc.) would likely not be stupid enough to go to LS.

le sigh

He's basically describing my gf (she makes 60k+ as an entry level programmer). And thank god she wasn't stupid enough to go to law school, because now I have someone to bankroll my dates and nights out.

I had two $50k offers straight out of UG with a liberal arts major.

[CincinnatusND]

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[Tom Joad]

Whenever I have IRL conversations about this, someone will always start talking about how he "could've gotten a $60,000/yr. job straight out of undergrad," and usually no one is rude enough to tell him that he's a moron for thinking that. Kids who actually could land a $60K/yr. job out of UG (ChemE's, other engineers with good creds or from top schools, certain very high-end HYP'ers, etc.) would likely not be stupid enough to go to LS.

le sigh

He's basically describing my gf (she makes 60k+ as an entry level programmer). And thank god she wasn't stupid enough to go to law school, because now I have someone to bankroll my dates and nights out.

I had two $50k offers straight out of UG with a liberal arts major.

But that was 98.

[justicefishy]

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Gratz! Also, why am I posting at 4:30 AM...

[Tiago Splitter]

ad two $50k offers straight out of UG with a liberal arts major.

But that was 98.

Lol. I think iafg and I graduated in the same year, and things have certainly gotten more difficult for entry level people since then. But tuition has also gone way up.

[GameOfScores]

I feel like the 'T14 or bust' argument is rather circular.

[withoutapaddle]

T-14 or bust comments on this forum saved my life.

I didn't go to a T 20-30 range thinking that I would get big law after I graduated. Considering that some schools in that range have barely a 10% chance at big law, and you're staring down a 200K debt load before you even have a job.

If you get a job making less than 70K with that amount of debt, good luck moving out of your parents house.

[bk1]

This is a 2.5 year old thread.