what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment?? Forum

[romothesavior]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into.

I don't think this is true, and I haven't seen this sentiment on TLS. I don't think my school is worth anywhere near sticker. I also don't think DCNG are worth sticker in a lot of cases, and I would hesitate to go to one at sticker. I'm not sure where you draw this conclusion from, because I haven't noticed it at all.

DF, are you saying 80% of people at T13s can get biglaw if they hustle, do OCI, mass mail, etc? Is that ITE, or circa 2007? I don't think that's even close to accurate today.

[romothesavior]

What's a T-10?

A top 10 school, dingbat.

[IAFG]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into.

I don't think this is true, and I haven't seen this sentiment on TLS. I don't think my school is worth anywhere near sticker. I also don't think DCNG are worth sticker in a lot of cases, and I would hesitate to go to one at sticker. I'm not sure where you draw this conclusion from, because I haven't noticed it at all.

DF, are you saying 80% of people at T13s can get biglaw if they hustle, do OCI, mass mail, etc? Is that ITE, or circa 2007? I don't think that's even close to accurate today.

I think it's accurate, or even a low estimate.

[romothesavior]

I think it's accurate, or even a low estimate.

So why is that not reflected at all by NLJ 250 data? Even accounting for clerkships, PI/government folks, people who don't hustle, etc., it is hard to get 80% out of a number like 40%.''

[dingbat]

What's a T-10?

A top 10 school, dingbat.

Duh. I meant, since when is T-10 an actual category?
HYS, yes
T14, yes
but T10? How about T9? or T8? By that same token, how about T19, T32 or T67?

When do we stop making distictions and just say:
Y stands on its own, but HYS is pretty darn close
T-14 gives you plenty of opportunities
T-1 might not be as easy, but at least these are real law schools
T3/T4 has some legitimate schools, but a lot of also-rans and one should really consider his/her long-term goals before applying to any of these. (e.g. if one wishes to work in North Dakota, go to University of North Dakota)

I see a lot of terms like T10, T20, T25, etc. which I think is really people trying to make themselves feel better about themselves/their schools, rather than there being any clear distinctions.

Yes, there's a clear difference between HYS and T14, and between T14 and T-1 (not sure, but I'm receptive to arguments that T-30 might be a real category) but I've got to call B.S. on most of these other ones.

[beachbum]

T11 or don't go.

[20160810]

I think it's accurate, or even a low estimate.

So why is that not reflected at all by NLJ 250 data? Even accounting for clerkships, PI/government folks, people who don't hustle, etc., it is hard to get 80% out of a number like 40%.''

I don't have any difficulty believing that 80% of kids at lower-T14 schools could swing a firm job, but maybe not biglaw/NLJ250.

[IAFG]

I think it's accurate, or even a low estimate.

So why is that not reflected at all by NLJ 250 data? Even accounting for clerkships, PI/government folks, people who don't hustle, etc., it is hard to get 80% out of a number like 40%.''

I don't have any difficulty believing that 80% of kids at lower-T14 schools could swing a firm job, but maybe not biglaw/NLJ250.

Neither DF nor I is saying 80% of the class. We're saying 80% after you subtract off the JD-MBAs, JD-PhDs and public interest types.

ETA: I don't think either of us are contemplating transfers either. I don't think NU transfers do as well as even median kids. I bet that burns GULC hard on the NLJ250 stats.

[Flash]

I think it's accurate, or even a low estimate.

So why is that not reflected at all by NLJ 250 data? Even accounting for clerkships, PI/government folks, people who don't hustle, etc., it is hard to get 80% out of a number like 40%.''

I think Chicago was at like 75% for OCI 2010 and 2011 supposedly went even better.

[Dale]

In looking at the associate list at a number of top 20 law firms, many schools outside the T-14 are represented. More so if they have regional offices―not unusual to see regional Tier 2 schools represented.

Perhaps some of their regional offices pay slightly less than NYC, but COL is a lot less. Trust me if I had a choice between NYC for $160K or Tampa for $130K, no contest. Especially when lifestyle is factored in.

I am more on the “if it is not T-14, stay away” side, but nevertheless, one can certainly make a case that Tier 1 and 2 schools have numerous Big Law success stories.

[romothesavior]

In looking at the associate list at a number of top 20 law firms, many schools outside the T-14 are represented. More so if they have regional offices―not unusual to see regional Tier 2 schools represented.

Perhaps some of their regional offices pay slightly less than NYC, but COL is a lot less. Trust me if I had a choice between NYC for $160K or Tampa for $130K, no contest. Especially when lifestyle is factored in.

I am more on the “if it is not T-14, stay away” side, but nevertheless, one can certainly make a case that Tier 1 and 2 schools have numerous Big Law success stories.

Of course they do. I don't think anyone on TLS would ever argue that T2 students can't land biglaw. But it's a simple numbers game, and a few anecdotes shouldn't even come into the discussion if we're weighing schools against one another. If 10-20 people in a class of 200-300 get mid/biglaw, then it's a horrible investment. It's like sucking out on the river in poker; even if it works out for you, you made the wrong play (unless you didn't have to pay much for it).

[20160810]

In looking at the associate list at a number of top 20 law firms, many schools outside the T-14 are represented. More so if they have regional offices―not unusual to see regional Tier 2 schools represented.

Perhaps some of their regional offices pay slightly less than NYC, but COL is a lot less. Trust me if I had a choice between NYC for $160K or Tampa for $130K, no contest. Especially when lifestyle is factored in.

I am more on the “if it is not T-14, stay away” side, but nevertheless, one can certainly make a case that Tier 1 and 2 schools have numerous Big Law success stories.

You can make $160,000 coming from a T2 school, but there is about a 99% chance (seriously) that you won't. Do you really think a 1% shot is effectively different from no shot? Do you want to bet $200,000 in borrowed money on that shot?

[ahnhub]

Considering the reasons people go to law school, I think T-14 students should be able to have a reasonably good belief (at least 70-80% if they want it) that they will be able to land Biglaw. I mean, if getting into a T-10 school means you have a coin flip chance of success, then the whole thing really is kind of a scam and everyone should stay away.

[20160810]

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

[Dale]

IMHO: ITE there is nervousness among some in the T-14 that their median scores could be aced by a Top 10% score from a Tier 1 or 2 competitor. No idea if this is a valid concern.

But yes, on a simple numbers basis, Tier 1 & 2 students are rolling the dice against substantial odds, unless they have the benefit of strong ties.

[ahnhub]

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

You know, I've heard this from attorneys who worked 5 yrs in Biglaw and are much happier doing something else now, but if you're not interested in PI or gov't, isn't it sort of a requirement to have Biglaw on your resume before you move onto something more fulfilling/not as horrible?

[romothesavior]

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

So credited. I am stealing this quote and putting it another thread, because it is relevant.

[johansantana21]

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

Biglaw = exit options bro, tell me what good jobs you can find straight out of law school.

[keg411]

I think it's accurate, or even a low estimate.

So why is that not reflected at all by NLJ 250 data? Even accounting for clerkships, PI/government folks, people who don't hustle, etc., it is hard to get 80% out of a number like 40%.''

I don't have any difficulty believing that 80% of kids at lower-T14 schools could swing a firm job, but maybe not biglaw/NLJ250.

Neither DF nor I is saying 80% of the class. We're saying 80% after you subtract off the JD-MBAs, JD-PhDs and public interest types.

ETA: I don't think either of us are contemplating transfers either. I don't think NU transfers do as well as even median kids. I bet that burns GULC hard on the NLJ250 stats.

I don't think transfers are that much of a burn. The class at Michigan overall did really well. Maybe NU just had a particularly bad year?

[IAFG]

I don't think transfers are that much of a burn. The class at Michigan overall did really well. Maybe NU just had a particularly bad year?

I am not only looking at this year, and I heard GULC goes badly too. Really didn't even hint at other T14s.

[romothesavior]

I don't think transfers are that much of a burn. The class at Michigan overall did really well. Maybe NU just had a particularly bad year?

I am not only looking at this year, and I heard GULC goes badly too. Really didn't even hint at other T14s.

That's because most people who transfer to Michigan could have easily gotten biglaw at their old schools, and they usually wind up getting it at their new school. At a school like GULC, and especially a T20 like WUSTL, those transfers are a drag on our NLJ numbers. I think we have like 40-50 transfers this year, and the vast majority of them aren't getting NLJ 250 jobs. It probably pulls our NLJ numbers down a few percentage points. Not sure how much it hurts GULC, but I imagine it does at least a bit.

[ahnhub]

I don't think transfers are that much of a burn. The class at Michigan overall did really well. Maybe NU just had a particularly bad year?

I am not only looking at this year, and I heard GULC goes badly too. Really didn't even hint at other T14s.

That's because most people who transfer to Michigan could have easily gotten biglaw at their old schools, and they usually wind up getting it at their new school. At a school like GULC, and especially a T20 like WUSTL, those transfers are a drag on our NLJ numbers. I think we have like 40-50 transfers this year, and the vast majority of them aren't getting NLJ 250 jobs. It probably pulls our NLJ numbers down a few percentage points. Not sure how much it hurts GULC, but I imagine it does at least a bit.

But it's surprising a transfer would struggle at NU--they probably have very similar credentials to Michigan transfers.

[09042014]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into. When I had a 167 I thought T30s were worth sticker (and thought up justifications as to why they were). Now after retaking I think lower T14s are worth sticker. People who go to TTTs at sticker think that its worth it, people at T6's think T6 is worth it but not the rest of the T14, etc. I'm willing to bet that at the aggregate level, TLSers have stats to get into T14s (but not higher, although some individuals are able to obviously), hence the prevailing sentiment on TLS is that only the T14 is worth sticker.

There is a huge drop off in ability to get big law after T13. Over 70% (probably 80%) of people who put a good faith effort into getting a big law job (OCI + Mass mailing + hustlin') get it at even the lower T13. After the top 20 schools (Vandy, UCLA, USC, Tex, G-dub, Fordam) you are talking 20% or worse.

That's why TLS says T14 or bust.

I totally understand this statement, but I think people really underestimate the effects of self selection into PI and Gov that hurts GTown's employment numbers. Even with this self selection out of biglaw, it still places 37% into the NLJ250. Maybe I'm being naive but this is how I see it.

I think Gtown is only slightly worse than the rest of the T14, and it's almost entirely because their class size is just too fucking big. In order to equal the placement of a school like Michigan firms have to take twice as many Gtown people. That's just too big.

But I don't buy that Gtown has a huge different because of people taking PI or gov. Mostly because gov is barely hiring right now.

[09042014]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into.

I don't think this is true, and I haven't seen this sentiment on TLS. I don't think my school is worth anywhere near sticker. I also don't think DCNG are worth sticker in a lot of cases, and I would hesitate to go to one at sticker. I'm not sure where you draw this conclusion from, because I haven't noticed it at all.

DF, are you saying 80% of people at T13s can get biglaw if they hustle, do OCI, mass mail, etc? Is that ITE, or circa 2007? I don't think that's even close to accurate today.

I think in 2007 it must have been damn near to 100%. I've got data from 2008 that shows that even people with atrocious bottom 10% grades still had a median of 2 call backs from OCI.

In this one section that we have data from (quarter of the class, and since grades are curved by section it should be a decent sample size). Of the normal JD students 75% actually have a firm. If you take out the PI focused people (who joined the clubs, and really are dedicated, etc etc) you get over 80%. Nobody counted the JDMBAs. They mostly do MBA stuff because Kellogg >> NW.

Not all of this came from OCI.

And like IAFG says, this doesn't account for TTTransfers or AJDs.

[20160810]

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

Biglaw = exit options bro, tell me what good jobs you can find straight out of law school.

I mean, there's a lot to recommend it by. I'm just saying I could see why someone with no debt might not want to bother. Biglaw hours can be hell on relationships, health, you name it.