what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment?? Forum

[83947368]

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[iamrobk]

T13*

everybody loves to hate on georgetown UT...

T14 - (Georgetown and UT) = T13, since those schools are tied for 14th, effectively making it 15 schools in the T14.

Yeah, math.

Er, I don't think you got it haha.

[justinp]

To the extent that the T14 is a relevant thing, which it isn't, UT is not a T14 school. There's nothing magical about being ranked #14 that makes you special.

Disclaimer: 0L here.

Anyhow... it's a T14 school if the metric you are using is the US News rankings, which as far as I know are in fact the rankings that everyone is talking about.

I don't understand the anti-UT trolling around here... it isn't any more regional than e.g. Boalt, and isn't competing with nearly as many good schools for its home market, and it's in a home market that is both reasonably hot and notoriously difficult to crack into. The Texas Biglaw lawyers I've talked to have all told me that the preference order for people who know that they want to do Biglaw in Houston, Dallas, or Austin is something along the lines of Harvard=Top 10% at Texas>>>anything else above median at Texas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anywhere else in the T14>>>>Houston/Tech/whatever.

[Nelson]

I don't understand the anti-UT trolling around here... it isn't any more regional than e.g. Boalt, and isn't competing with nearly as many good schools for its home market, and it's in a home market that is both reasonably hot and notoriously difficult to crack into.

The "T14" is a stupid debate but LOL at the idea that Boalt is as regional as UT. Boalt is a national school that happens to be in California. UT places in Texas.

[dixiecupdrinking]

To the extent that the T14 is a relevant thing, which it isn't, UT is not a T14 school. There's nothing magical about being ranked #14 that makes you special.

Disclaimer: 0L here.

Anyhow... it's a T14 school if the metric you are using is the US News rankings, which as far as I know are in fact the rankings that everyone is talking about.

I don't understand the anti-UT trolling around here... it isn't any more regional than e.g. Boalt, and isn't competing with nearly as many good schools for its home market, and it's in a home market that is both reasonably hot and notoriously difficult to crack into. The Texas Biglaw lawyers I've talked to have all told me that the preference order for people who know that they want to do Biglaw in Houston, Dallas, or Austin is something along the lines of Harvard=Top 10% at Texas>>>anything else above median at Texas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anywhere else in the T14>>>>Houston/Tech/whatever.

Boalt is, I think, indisputably less regional than UT. But UT is a fine school, and I have nothing against it. It just isn't a T14 school.

The point is that the T14 is a group of schools that have not been ranked below the top 14 for the last 20+ years, and have each been in the top ten at some point. The significance of the group is not that there's anything special about being ranked in the top 14 (which would be a ridiculously arbitrary cut-off), but that it's a stable group of schools that have consistently been considered very prestigious and have national pull, while the schools below the T14 have shuffled around a lot in the rankings over the years and are generally considered very good regional schools rather than national ones. This conventional wisdom has changed in this economy, which is why I say the T14 isn't really that relevant as a concept. But regardless, the fact that UT is ranked #14 this year does not put it in the same category as those other schools. If anything it's just further evidence that the T14 isn't a meaningful entity anymore.

Anyway, this is all kind of obnoxious stuff, but as long as people are talking about T14 they should at least understand what they're talking about.

[Blessedassurance]

Er, I don't think you got it haha.

Shhh, don't ruin it. I'm trying to encourage him to make more silly statements for my entertainment. If a creature professing sanity or the semblance thereof, enters TLS and proceeds to explain to an informed audience that GULC and UT are actually tied for 14, it's safe to assume he has more no-shit statements to make.

[Grizz]

Oh my god everyone just shut the fuck up, will you?

[20130312]

Er, I don't think you got it haha.

Shhh, don't ruin it. I'm trying to encourage him to make more silly statements for my entertainment. If a creature professing sanity or the semblance thereof, enters TLS and proceeds to explain to an informed audience that GULC and UT are actually tied for 14, it's safe to assume he has more no-shit statements to make.

Was only talking about ranking

[Errzii]

I don't understand the anti-UT trolling around here... it isn't any more regional than e.g. Boalt

who's trolling now? lmfao

[chem]

Even though relatively few will get biglaw, does starting salary in any field except medicine even come close to biglaw? From what I understood, not even engineers break six figures starting out. What do investment bankers make with bonus?

Petroleum engineering. If you can handle boredom, you'll start out around 110. Then again, an engineering degree makes law school a much better investment.

Also, I don't know if its been said, but very few biglaw people work 80/wk. It probably averages to 55/wk. Some weeks you work 80, some weeks you work less. It all depends on the climate

[Veyron]

Even though relatively few will get biglaw, does starting salary in any field except medicine even come close to biglaw? From what I understood, not even engineers break six figures starting out. What do investment bankers make with bonus?

Petroleum engineering. If you can handle boredom, you'll start out around 110. Then again, an engineering degree makes law school a much better investment.

Also, I don't know if its been said, but very few biglaw people work 80/wk. It probably averages to 55/wk. Some weeks you work 80, some weeks you work less. It all depends on the climate

If you don't get biglaw, you usually don't get a six fig starting salary.

[SehMeSerrious]

Also, some computer and electrical engineers can pull 6 figures starting. And it's a little more objective - of course your school/degree can get you better interviews without even trying, but some people who have objectively shown their talent even at small, unknown schools have gotten hired by big companies or by ambitious startups for $100,000+ starting. There's a little more objectivity in the STEM majors and major companies since anyone could make their own projects/research on the side (it's not like making law review or getting published where you simply can't do it if you don't get chosen) and well-funded startups can get you $100,000+ or close to it even with a bachelor's.

[akronite08]

It was said earlier that it's an extremely personal decision that can't really be generalized - agreed. As a journalism student (no real job prospects outside of covering housefires and city council for 5 years) with no strings tying me down to the midwest, I feel like I'm T14 or bust. I wouldn't mind Biglaw for several years, and the lateral options are obviously much more generous with a T14 degree.

That being said, I'm looking at a few waitlists and not any money for the T14 schools to which I've applied. It's not the stats - it's the petty criminal record from when I was 18 (whoops). Now, I'm planning to volunteer and maybe work PR for a nonprofit oversees for few years, distance myself from my teen years, bump my LSAT a point or two and pursue T14 with monies.

When I first got into this, I never thought I'd ever turn down a full ride from a T30 or an offer from T14. Now, I see this is a monumental and deeply personal process that should be thought of in dollar signs and decades. To each his own.

[NJPitcher]

My advice is to pick law schools as if you were choosing sexual partners.

T14 = attractive virgin
T1 = less attractive person, but would still bang given the right conditions. Not 100% sure about sex history, use a condom.
TTT = ugly STD infected tranny, stay away from at all costs, unless you're into that sort of thing.

HTH.

I don't usually play feminist police but this was pretty offensive (not to mention unfunny and unhelpful).

After reading through 10+ pages, I still feel inclined to respond here:

I don't usually play anti-feminism police, but the original statement is entirely devoid of gender or sex. Even has "person" for the T1 description. In fact, if anything, it's kind of sexist that you read into it that the poster was referring to women here.

[laxbrah420]

yea women use condoms all the time

[laxbrah420]

i mean, the president only makes a shade over 250k.

the president of what country/company?

[westinghouse60]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into. When I had a 167 I thought T30s were worth sticker (and thought up justifications as to why they were). Now after retaking I think lower T14s are worth sticker. People who go to TTTs at sticker think that its worth it, people at T6's think T6 is worth it but not the rest of the T14, etc. I'm willing to bet that at the aggregate level, TLSers have stats to get into T14s (but not higher, although some individuals are able to obviously), hence the prevailing sentiment on TLS is that only the T14 is worth sticker.

[09042014]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into. When I had a 167 I thought T30s were worth sticker (and thought up justifications as to why they were). Now after retaking I think lower T14s are worth sticker. People who go to TTTs at sticker think that its worth it, people at T6's think T6 is worth it but not the rest of the T14, etc. I'm willing to bet that at the aggregate level, TLSers have stats to get into T14s (but not higher, although some individuals are able to obviously), hence the prevailing sentiment on TLS is that only the T14 is worth sticker.

There is a huge drop off in ability to get big law after T13. Over 70% (probably 80%) of people who put a good faith effort into getting a big law job (OCI + Mass mailing + hustlin') get it at even the lower T13. After the top 20 schools (Vandy, UCLA, USC, Tex, G-dub, Fordam) you are talking 20% or worse.

That's why TLS says T14 or bust.

[ColtsFan88]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into. When I had a 167 I thought T30s were worth sticker (and thought up justifications as to why they were). Now after retaking I think lower T14s are worth sticker. People who go to TTTs at sticker think that its worth it, people at T6's think T6 is worth it but not the rest of the T14, etc. I'm willing to bet that at the aggregate level, TLSers have stats to get into T14s (but not higher, although some individuals are able to obviously), hence the prevailing sentiment on TLS is that only the T14 is worth sticker.

There is a huge drop off in ability to get big law after T13. Over 70% (probably 80%) of people who put a good faith effort into getting a big law job (OCI + Mass mailing + hustlin') get it at even the lower T13. After the top 20 schools (Vandy, UCLA, USC, Tex, G-dub, Fordam) you are talking 20% or worse.

That's why TLS says T14 or bust.

I totally understand this statement, but I think people really underestimate the effects of self selection into PI and Gov that hurts GTown's employment numbers. Even with this self selection out of biglaw, it still places 37% into the NLJ250. Maybe I'm being naive but this is how I see it.

[IAFG]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into. When I had a 167 I thought T30s were worth sticker (and thought up justifications as to why they were). Now after retaking I think lower T14s are worth sticker. People who go to TTTs at sticker think that its worth it, people at T6's think T6 is worth it but not the rest of the T14, etc. I'm willing to bet that at the aggregate level, TLSers have stats to get into T14s (but not higher, although some individuals are able to obviously), hence the prevailing sentiment on TLS is that only the T14 is worth sticker.

Well I'd argue that being a lawyer isn't worth sticker, so then there's that.

[NJPitcher]

yea women use condoms all the time

Oo you're right brah, only the dudes gain anything from condom use. Sorry for my idiocy.

[laxbrah420]

yea women use condoms all the time

Oo you're right brah, only the dudes gain anything from condom use. Sorry for my idiocy.

what's with people on this site changing arguments so as to not lose. just shut the fuck up and go to a different thread

[Dale]

When I first started this adventure in 2011, I read that in 2012 there would be 25,000 law firm jobs available (no data on Big Law versus traffic-ticket-attorney). 45,000 lawyers would be competing for those jobs (no specific data, assumed mostly law students).

Given those stats a T-10 offering 50% scholarship money frontloaded (but not counting living, books, etc.) seemed like a better idea than a near full ride on at a Tier 1 or a solid full ride with an upper Tier-2.

Went the T-10 route. I optimistically calculated that if the top 50% of T-10 students were hired, that would roughly account for roughly 4,000 of the supposed 25,000 openings. Of course, if only 10% of those openings are top shelf, it is going to be challenging, even for T-10.

In theory (not particularly mine), the higher up the T-10 ladder one goes the harder the competition (competing against higher GPA, LSAT students). Somehow, I cannot buy into the notion that someone with a median T-10 GPA would have an “at the top” GPA attending a school outside the top 30 (it might be true, but I have never seen any data on the subject). Given a choice between having a median T-10 GPA or “top of the class” at a Tier-1 school, which would you take?

Here's hoping that by 2014 there will be brighter news on the job front and that the number of law students will significantly decline (dream-on) If not, TLS better upgrade their servers to handle all the “can’t find work” threads, because you cannot cram 45,000 into the 25,000 circle.

[dingbat]

yea women use condoms all the time

Oo you're right brah, only the dudes gain anything from condom use. Sorry for my idiocy.

This guy has enough deductive reasoning to score a 173 on the LSAT?
(no offense intended)

[dingbat]

When I first started this adventure in 2011, I read that in 2012 there would be 25,000 law firm jobs available (no data on Big Law versus traffic-ticket-attorney). 45,000 lawyers would be competing for those jobs (no specific data, assumed mostly law students).

Given those stats a T-10 offering 50% scholarship money frontloaded (but not counting living, books, etc.) seemed like a better idea than a near full ride on at a Tier 1 or a solid full ride with an upper Tier-2.

Went the T-10 route. I optimistically calculated that if the top 50% of T-10 students were hired, that would roughly account for roughly 4,000 of the supposed 25,000 openings. Of course, if only 10% of those openings are top shelf, it is going to be challenging, even for T-10.

In theory (not particularly mine), the higher up the T-10 ladder one goes the harder the competition (competing against higher GPA, LSAT students). Somehow, I cannot buy into the notion that someone with a median T-10 GPA would have an “at the top” GPA attending a school outside the top 30 (it might be true, but I have never seen any data on the subject). Given a choice between having a median T-10 GPA or “top of the class” at a Tier-1 school, which would you take?

Here's hoping that by 2014 there will be brighter news on the job front and that the number of law students will significantly decline (dream-on) If not, TLS better upgrade their servers to handle all the “can’t find work” threads, because you cannot cram 45,000 into the 25,000 circle.

What's a T-10?