what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

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Dr. Filth
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Dr. Filth » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:58 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
Dr. Filth wrote:I'm rocking a solid 3.02 degree GPA with a double poly sci and philosophy, and I'm about to graduate in May. Where is my 40k job?

1. go spurs
2. romney campaign? I have no idea what people who take those majors usually do? i suppose you have zero opportunity cost now b/c you chose those majors. but choosing those majors was surely quite costly

Don't get paying jobs

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby snehpets » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:58 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:
snehpets wrote:Just because someone is willing to take a job "beneath them" like at Mcdonalds or whatever doesn't mean they're making 40k a year. I live in a state with a great economy (relatively speaking), and yes, there are jobs. However, they're certainly not jobs making 40k, and I have multiple friends who are pretty much open to anything that can't find jobs at 20 or 30k a year, much less 40. They're not socially retarded and they had good GPAs. I can't imagine what it would be like if they were in a state with a truly crappy economy. It's ridiculous to claim that there are 40k a year jobs out there for anyone who wants them with a 3.0 and up.

also go mavs :wink: also again, lol at getting a paying job on a campaign straight out of school with a 3.0 and little or no relevant work experience. rick perry wasn't even paying most of his staff for a while (maybe still isn't, idk). Even a successful campaign like Romney isn't going to hire people with no experience when he can get volunteers for free.


This is overstating it. I can't speak for the Republican side, but the Democrats WILL hire people for field staff out of college if you at least have some filler on your resume and are good with people. It's not that hard to get one of these jobs if you are willing to relocate because you're basically sitting around making phone calls all day and working close to big law hours for very little pay.


I'm sure you're right. I shouldn't have exaggerated it. I suppose I was looking at it more from the point of view that, if you're even lucky enough to get one of these jobs (they're not unlimited), they probably don't want you to have a rough GPA, they would prefer someone with experience, and, most importantly, the cost of relocating/living would probably outweigh the amount you'd be making as you pointed out yourself (little to no pay).

So yes, I agree that it's possible, I suppose. I just get frustrated with the ridiculous mindset that a poli sci degree is a free ticket to a campaign job, a job on the hill, etc., and that these jobs are unlimited when I've watched plenty of people with normal social skills, gpas, etc., strike out with those. A lot of that is about connections, too, not just skill.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby keg411 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:02 pm

IAFG wrote:It's funny how 0Ls are so much more confident in the strength of their connections than 2Ls who are actually having to call those favors in.


The best part is NOT having to call the favors in.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:03 pm

Image
I guess I'm wrong :oops:
But I still contend that kids who are bright enough to get into the T14 albeit no scholarship would fare well in the job market, unless they have poor ambition/job hunting skills.

But holy fuck look at that gap between math/computer science and humanities. What a terrible investment that is to spend money on undergrad and major in philosophy.

I'm still curious what the distribution looks like from graduates of reasonable schools vs state satellites/city universities

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IAFG
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:05 pm

keg411 wrote:
IAFG wrote:It's funny how 0Ls are so much more confident in the strength of their connections than 2Ls who are actually having to call those favors in.


The best part is NOT having to call the favors in.

It feels a lot better to tell your connections that you have it figured out than to whine to them about being unemployed, but that said, I strongly suspect people over-estimate the strength of their ties.

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Mr. Somebody » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:06 pm

snehpets wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:
snehpets wrote:Just because someone is willing to take a job "beneath them" like at Mcdonalds or whatever doesn't mean they're making 40k a year. I live in a state with a great economy (relatively speaking), and yes, there are jobs. However, they're certainly not jobs making 40k, and I have multiple friends who are pretty much open to anything that can't find jobs at 20 or 30k a year, much less 40. They're not socially retarded and they had good GPAs. I can't imagine what it would be like if they were in a state with a truly crappy economy. It's ridiculous to claim that there are 40k a year jobs out there for anyone who wants them with a 3.0 and up.

also go mavs :wink: also again, lol at getting a paying job on a campaign straight out of school with a 3.0 and little or no relevant work experience. rick perry wasn't even paying most of his staff for a while (maybe still isn't, idk). Even a successful campaign like Romney isn't going to hire people with no experience when he can get volunteers for free.


This is overstating it. I can't speak for the Republican side, but the Democrats WILL hire people for field staff out of college if you at least have some filler on your resume and are good with people. It's not that hard to get one of these jobs if you are willing to relocate because you're basically sitting around making phone calls all day and working close to big law hours for very little pay.


I'm sure you're right. I shouldn't have exaggerated it. I suppose I was looking at it more from the point of view that, if you're even lucky enough to get one of these jobs (they're not unlimited), they probably don't want you to have a rough GPA, they would prefer someone with experience, and, most importantly, the cost of relocating/living would probably outweigh the amount you'd be making as you pointed out yourself (little to no pay).

So yes, I agree that it's possible, I suppose. I just get frustrated with the ridiculous mindset that a poli sci degree is a free ticket to a campaign job, a job on the hill, etc., and that these jobs are unlimited when I've watched plenty of people with normal social skills, gpas, etc., strike out with those. A lot of that is about connections, too, not just skill.


Lol, a job on the hill is basically impossible right now. Especially if you're a Democrat. I know way too many people interning on the hill and waiting tables on weekends, in the hopes their staff assistant gets promoted or leaves. Yeah connections are everything in DC. For campaigns, I think it's "easy" to get an entry-level position since it's almost the same as a sales job. It's much harder to move up from that to management or to policy positions that are actually interesting. But I guess it beats working at Trader Joe's

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby keg411 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:15 pm

IAFG wrote:
keg411 wrote:
IAFG wrote:It's funny how 0Ls are so much more confident in the strength of their connections than 2Ls who are actually having to call those favors in.


The best part is NOT having to call the favors in.

It feels a lot better to tell your connections that you have it figured out than to whine to them about being unemployed, but that said, I strongly suspect people over-estimate the strength of their ties.


I dunno. I'd be interested to see people with "connections" talk about it after/during law school then just 0L's. Especially those who don't have the grades/school for OCI and the connections are in non-BigLaw jobs.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:18 pm

keg411 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
keg411 wrote:
IAFG wrote:It's funny how 0Ls are so much more confident in the strength of their connections than 2Ls who are actually having to call those favors in.


The best part is NOT having to call the favors in.

It feels a lot better to tell your connections that you have it figured out than to whine to them about being unemployed, but that said, I strongly suspect people over-estimate the strength of their ties.


I dunno. I'd be interested to see people with "connections" talk about it after/during law school then just 0L's. Especially those who don't have the grades/school for OCI and the connections are in non-BigLaw jobs.

Of course, those who ended up successful are going to beat their drums loudest, and those who were totally sure their uncle in midlaw was going to get them a market-paying gig and then end up face-planting are going to zip it, so even a lot of anecdotal evidence isn't going to get us very far.

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BruceWayne
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:54 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:You're thinking wrong; let me give you a more realistic list of schools: Ohio State, Tennessee, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Temple, Michigan State, UC Irvine, George Mason, Auburn, Fresno State, Vilianova, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Georgia State, etc.

Trolling? UC Irvine is the only top-50 school on your list. Why not throw in Davis, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, and Merced too? Anyone familiar with the hierarchy of the UC system knows that Berkeley>UCLA>>UCSD>UCI/UCSB/UCD>UCSC>>>>UC Merced



Either you can't read particularly well, or you're just a WASP snob who got a hard on at the opportunity to comment on the hierarchy of undergrads. My guess is that it's a combination of both.

That post was made while quoting his comment that only people at Community colleges are struggling to find jobs straight out of undergrad; I was telling him that this is far from the truth and that graduates of most average colleges are struggling as well.
Simplicity wrote:Quote:
Not to mention the QOL is even worse than law firm work and you really ARE restricted to working in NYC, as opposed to just more likely to work there if you are going for biglaw.

It depends where you work. My friend doing IB in New York City worked 120 hours last week and pretty much hates life; however, my friend in Dallas says he usually works about 80 hour weeks.

I have no desire to do IB, but a few jobs are definitely out there.


By and large (really overwhelmingly) Ibanking jobs are located in NYC. And I'm still trying to figure out how your comment that you have a friend who works 80 hour work weeks contradicts my statement that QOL for Ibanking is terrible.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby TatteredDignity » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:14 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:Even though relatively few will get biglaw, does starting salary in any field except medicine even come close to biglaw? From what I understood, not even engineers break six figures starting out. What do investment bankers make with bonus?

I'm not sure I understand. Is your point "the risk may be high but the potential payout is bigger"? That's what it sounds like, and it means you're buying a $200,000 lottery ticket.


I don't know if it's because I'm a serious poker player, but I have no problem making a life decision that is a winning bet over many iterations, even though I obviously only get to play once in this situation. I'm doing T25 with $$, so the lottery ticket doesn't cost $200K. And for my discount, I got a 1 in 5 chance of winning instead of a 2 in 5. If I hadn't played at all, I would have had a 1 in 1000 chance of topping six figures any time in the next decade. To me, that was an easy decision.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby snehpets » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:16 pm

Mr. Somebody wrote:Lol, a job on the hill is basically impossible right now. Especially if you're a Democrat. I know way too many people interning on the hill and waiting tables on weekends, in the hopes their staff assistant gets promoted or leaves. Yeah connections are everything in DC. For campaigns, I think it's "easy" to get an entry-level position since it's almost the same as a sales job. It's much harder to move up from that to management or to policy positions that are actually interesting. But I guess it beats working at Trader Joe's


God I would hate being a staff assistant. 40 hours a week of being everyone else's bitch. However, it still manages to make most of them insanely self-important and absurd, so they must be getting something out of it.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Dr. Filth » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:21 pm

snehpets wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Lol, a job on the hill is basically impossible right now. Especially if you're a Democrat. I know way too many people interning on the hill and waiting tables on weekends, in the hopes their staff assistant gets promoted or leaves. Yeah connections are everything in DC. For campaigns, I think it's "easy" to get an entry-level position since it's almost the same as a sales job. It's much harder to move up from that to management or to policy positions that are actually interesting. But I guess it beats working at Trader Joe's


God I would hate being a staff assistant. 40 hours a week of being everyone else's bitch. However, it still manages to make most of them insanely self-important and absurd, so they must be getting something out of it.

yeah, no.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby snehpets » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:22 pm

Dr. Filth wrote:
snehpets wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:Lol, a job on the hill is basically impossible right now. Especially if you're a Democrat. I know way too many people interning on the hill and waiting tables on weekends, in the hopes their staff assistant gets promoted or leaves. Yeah connections are everything in DC. For campaigns, I think it's "easy" to get an entry-level position since it's almost the same as a sales job. It's much harder to move up from that to management or to policy positions that are actually interesting. But I guess it beats working at Trader Joe's


God I would hate being a staff assistant. 40 hours a week of being everyone else's bitch. However, it still manages to make most of them insanely self-important and absurd, so they must be getting something out of it.

yeah, no.


Dunno if the point of this is that a first year associate works like 100 hours a week and is everyone else's bitch, but at least there I'd be making 160k (in theory), not waiting tables or babysitting to make ends meet in my shitty apartment I share with 6 other people.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby blank403 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:24 am

laxbrah420 wrote:Image
I guess I'm wrong :oops:
But I still contend that kids who are bright enough to get into the T14 albeit no scholarship would fare well in the job market, unless they have poor ambition/job hunting skills.

But holy fuck look at that gap between math/computer science and humanities. What a terrible investment that is to spend money on undergrad and major in philosophy.

I'm still curious what the distribution looks like from graduates of reasonable schools vs state satellites/city universities


1) Glad you were able to admit your mistake. Unfortunate that you continue with this nonsense. Did you pay attention at all to what people were doing after graduation? There are plenty of ambitious people with good job hunting skills out there that are unemployed and underemployed.

2) Undergrad doesn't have to be an investment like law school. Hopefully you're not blowing 200k on undergrad. You could show me this graph and give me the option to go back in time four years ago and switch to Comp Sci or Math and I still wouldn't do it. Partly because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life with the kind of people that I get the impression you are.

3) You rub me as someone either very out of touch with reality, obnoxiously insensitive, lacking basic social skills/friends or all of the above. Yay for sweeping generalizations.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby nsbane » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:30 am

I got a job with the state government as an analyst right out of college. Only requirement was a BA. It could have been in basket weaving for all they cared.

Of course, this was September 2005, when the world was a much much different place.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:32 am

nsbane wrote:I got a job with the state government as an analyst right out of college. Only requirement was a BA. It could have been in basket weaving for all they cared.

Of course, this was September 2005, when the world was a much much different place.

I had a shit degree and multiple offers in 2006. Also I was probably the last generation to be able to actually put myself through school through working part time.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:42 am

laxbrah420 wrote:Image
I guess I'm wrong :oops:
But I still contend that kids who are bright enough to get into the T14 albeit no scholarship would fare well in the job market, unless they have poor ambition/job hunting skills.

But holy fuck look at that gap between math/computer science and humanities. What a terrible investment that is to spend money on undergrad and major in philosophy.

I'm still curious what the distribution looks like from graduates of reasonable schools vs state satellites/city universities

There is really nothing special about people who go to T14 schools. They're people who did at least reasonably well in college, have a particular aptitude for standardized tests, and took the LSAT seriously enough to max out their potential on it. That's it. These things have little to do with their ability to get jobs out of undergrad. There are definitely loads of people who cannot get jobs after college and who instead decide to go to law school—even at the top schools.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:33 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:There are definitely loads of people who cannot get jobs after college and who instead decide to go to law school—even at the top schools.


LOL you rang? This is one reason why I don't care for the argument that law school is almost always a waste, especially straight out of undergrad. To be honest, for the typical college grad, if they are able to get into a top 14 or very strong regional in the area they want to practice, with a large scholarship, it's a great idea. 100 percent commission job/retail/food services vs. a 50/50 shot at biglaw or a shot at a 40-60K a year legal job that will be covered by a school's LRAP or IBR. The latter is a much a better option.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:49 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:There are definitely loads of people who cannot get jobs after college and who instead decide to go to law school—even at the top schools.


LOL you rang? This is one reason why I don't care for the argument that law school is almost always a waste, especially straight out of undergrad. To be honest, for the typical college grad, if they are able to get into a top 14 or very strong regional in the area they want to practice, with a large scholarship, it's a great idea. 100 percent commission job/retail/food services vs. a 50/50 shot at biglaw or a shot at a 40-60K a year legal job that will be covered by a school's LRAP or IBR. The latter is a much a better option.

I agree. People who harp on the bad state of the legal economy are right, of course, but they tend to gloss over the fact that the economy sucks in most industries right now. I graduated a few years ago in a better economy, and all of my friends have or had decent paying jobs, but they were all dead ends with no room to grow, and just about everyone now feels like they have to go to grad school of some sort. Law is still a good option for many people relative to their other opportunities. If you're taking out massive debt to go, that's the elephant in the room, of course, and that's what may make it a poor choice.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby skers » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:26 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:There are definitely loads of people who cannot get jobs after college and who instead decide to go to law school—even at the top schools.


LOL you rang? This is one reason why I don't care for the argument that law school is almost always a waste, especially straight out of undergrad. To be honest, for the typical college grad, if they are able to get into a top 14 13 or very strong regional in the area they want to practice, with a large scholarship, it's a great idea. 100 percent commission job/retail/food services vs. a 50/50 shot at biglaw or a shot at a 40-60K a year legal job that will be covered by a school's LRAP or IBR. The latter is a much a better option.


Yeah. This.

Really, those going to top schools are looking at a ~65-75% chance at a good outcome (with aggragate big law, big regional law, clerkship, gov, and PI work) while those at T6s are looking at ~85% good outcome. While things are cetainly dicey for anyone (without IP, URM, legitimately solid connections, or good WE) below median I would say that a good percentage of those individuals do OK. There's no doubt there's a substantial proportion of T13 graduates end up jobless with ballcrushing debt, but I would say a decent majority end up in solid positions. The real question is whether the debt load (and the employment limiting options that come with 200k debt) is worth it compared with the reward is worth it. That's an entirely personal question.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby iamrobk » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:44 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:There are definitely loads of people who cannot get jobs after college and who instead decide to go to law school—even at the top schools.


LOL you rang? This is one reason why I don't care for the argument that law school is almost always a waste, especially straight out of undergrad. To be honest, for the typical college grad, if they are able to get into a top 14 or very strong regional in the area they want to practice, with a large scholarship, it's a great idea. 100 percent commission job/retail/food services vs. a 50/50 shot at biglaw or a shot at a 40-60K a year legal job that will be covered by a school's LRAP or IBR. The latter is a much a better option.

I agree. People who harp on the bad state of the legal economy are right, of course, but they tend to gloss over the fact that the economy sucks in most industries right now. I graduated a few years ago in a better economy, and all of my friends have or had decent paying jobs, but they were all dead ends with no room to grow, and just about everyone now feels like they have to go to grad school of some sort. Law is still a good option for many people relative to their other opportunities. If you're taking out massive debt to go, that's the elephant in the room, of course, and that's what may make it a poor choice.

Yeah. I think a lot of us are forgetting that the economy outside the legal industry is generally pretty poor as well.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Odd Future Wolf Gang » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:30 pm

Image

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby CincinnatusND » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:40 pm

Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:Image


Good thing you only pay law school debt off once while a prestigious law degree lasts a lifetime..

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:04 pm

iamrobk wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:There are definitely loads of people who cannot get jobs after college and who instead decide to go to law school—even at the top schools.


LOL you rang? This is one reason why I don't care for the argument that law school is almost always a waste, especially straight out of undergrad. To be honest, for the typical college grad, if they are able to get into a top 14 or very strong regional in the area they want to practice, with a large scholarship, it's a great idea. 100 percent commission job/retail/food services vs. a 50/50 shot at biglaw or a shot at a 40-60K a year legal job that will be covered by a school's LRAP or IBR. The latter is a much a better option.

I agree. People who harp on the bad state of the legal economy are right, of course, but they tend to gloss over the fact that the economy sucks in most industries right now. I graduated a few years ago in a better economy, and all of my friends have or had decent paying jobs, but they were all dead ends with no room to grow, and just about everyone now feels like they have to go to grad school of some sort. Law is still a good option for many people relative to their other opportunities. If you're taking out massive debt to go, that's the elephant in the room, of course, and that's what may make it a poor choice.

Yeah. I think a lot of us are forgetting that the economy outside the legal industry is generally pretty poor as well.

I hear what you guys are saying, but if anyone will hire you, it is a jumping off point. A starting salary is just that. A start. If you are a college senior planning to go to law school I have to suspect you haven't tried to get employed yet.

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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Odd Future Wolf Gang » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:07 pm

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