what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment?? Forum

[whitman]

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

Biglaw = exit options bro, tell me what good jobs you can find straight out of law school.

I mean, there's a lot to recommend it by. I'm just saying I could see why someone with no debt might not want to bother. Biglaw hours can be hell on relationships, health, you name it.

So what can you do with no debt straight out of law school?

[20160810]

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

Biglaw = exit options bro, tell me what good jobs you can find straight out of law school.

I mean, there's a lot to recommend it by. I'm just saying I could see why someone with no debt might not want to bother. Biglaw hours can be hell on relationships, health, you name it.

So what can you do with no debt straight out of law school?

Any other type of entry-level legal job you can get?

[beachbum]

Any other type of entry-level legal job you can get?

Like... what? Not to be a dick, but my 1L mind is having trouble considering the alternatives. You're probably not gonna get an in-house spot straight out of school (and your in-house options will be severely limited by not doing biglaw). Midlaw is gonna be tough to swing, and I'm not convinced that midlaw hours are appreciably better than many biglaw firms. Gov and PI are on the table, but those of us who were leaning towards biglaw/corporate might not be very enthusiastic about these types of options.

So, I dunno, what's left? For those of us who are interested in the career path that biglaw provides, I'm not sure we can get that same (or a similar) experience elsewhere.

[westinghouse60]

Everyone thinks that the worst schools that are worth sticker are the ones they can get into.

I don't think this is true, and I haven't seen this sentiment on TLS. I don't think my school is worth anywhere near sticker. I also don't think DCNG are worth sticker in a lot of cases, and I would hesitate to go to one at sticker. I'm not sure where you draw this conclusion from, because I haven't noticed it at all.

DF, are you saying 80% of people at T13s can get biglaw if they hustle, do OCI, mass mail, etc? Is that ITE, or circa 2007? I don't think that's even close to accurate today.

But if you attend a school on a scholly, you probably could have gone to a higher ranked school and paid sticker (there are plenty of reasons you might not, e.g. risk aversion) say at a T6 or wherever. You likely think that one of those schools are "worth sticker" (again, you might not choose to attend one because of personal preference).

Maybe this doesn't describe you personally, but I bet for a lot of people who don't choose to pay sticker and go for a scholly instead, think that the worst school their stats could get them into are worth sticker for some people. I might go to WUSTL on a scholly for example, over Cornell, but I think Cornell is worth sticker for some people at least.

Certainly the people who go to TTTs at sticker (although there aren't many who post frequently on TLS) think that their school is worth sticker, and think of ways to rationalize going there. My basic point is that people think of ways to rationalize the worst school they can get into at sticker as being worth it (even if they don't end up going there), and on average, TLSers (or at least frequent posters) have the stats to get into T14s, hence the T14 is whats worth sticker sentiment.

[20160810]

Any other type of entry-level legal job you can get?

Like... what? Not to be a dick, but my 1L mind is having trouble considering the alternatives. You're probably not gonna get an in-house spot straight out of school (and your in-house options will be severely limited by not doing biglaw). Midlaw is gonna be tough to swing, and I'm not convinced that midlaw hours are appreciably better than many biglaw firms. Gov and PI are on the table, but those of us who were leaning towards biglaw/corporate might not be very enthusiastic about these types of options.

So, I dunno, what's left? For those of us who are interested in the career path that biglaw provides, I'm not sure we can get that same (or a similar) experience elsewhere.

Dude what are you on about? Of course there are non-biglaw options for entry-level lawyers, you just said you were interested in biglaw, so obviously none of them are going to appeal to you.

[beachbum]

Any other type of entry-level legal job you can get?

Like... what? Not to be a dick, but my 1L mind is having trouble considering the alternatives. You're probably not gonna get an in-house spot straight out of school (and your in-house options will be severely limited by not doing biglaw). Midlaw is gonna be tough to swing, and I'm not convinced that midlaw hours are appreciably better than many biglaw firms. Gov and PI are on the table, but those of us who were leaning towards biglaw/corporate might not be very enthusiastic about these types of options.

So, I dunno, what's left? For those of us who are interested in the career path that biglaw provides, I'm not sure we can get that same (or a similar) experience elsewhere.

Dude what are you on about? Of course there are non-biglaw options for entry-level lawyers, you just said you were interested in biglaw, so obviously none of them are going to appeal to you.

Right, but that's my point. You're saying that biglaw is shitty (because of hours/demands), and that going to school for free will allow you the luxury of not having to go the biglaw route. But for those who don't want gov/PI, or who want to practice in corporate law or business litigation or some other area commonly associated with biglaw, there isn't really a good alternative to biglaw.

I dunno, am I reading you right? It seems you're saying that going to school for free will let you go straight into gov or PI (or small-law, I guess).

But if your goal is something associated with biglaw, then you're probably gonna have to go through biglaw to get it, which means you might want to maximize your chances at biglaw (as opposed to taking the free ride).

[whitman]

Yeah, so if the common paths (and paths which are facilitated by the school) are biglaw, government, public interest, and clerkships, it seems like you're saying that you should graduate deft free so you can go into government, public interest, or do a clerkship. Is that what you're saying, SBL? Or are you saying that there are these other entry-level jobs out there? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm asking for real. Do you mean find a boutique law firm that might have a better QOL but still pay well? I didn't think you could go in-house straight out unless you had years of business experience before law school. I guess law firms in secondary markets might have better QOL and lower pay. Are you saying that what TLSers usually call "shitlaw" is a better option, if you're not in debt?

[Mr. Somebody]

Yeah, so if the common paths (and paths which are facilitated by the school) are biglaw, government, public interest, and clerkships, it seems like you're saying that you should graduate deft free so you can go into government, public interest, or do a clerkship. Is that what you're saying, SBL? Or are you saying that there are these other entry-level jobs out there? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm asking for real. Do you mean find a boutique law firm that might have a better QOL but still pay well? I didn't think you could go in-house straight out unless you had years of business experience before law school. I guess law firms in secondary markets might have better QOL and lower pay. Are you saying that what TLSers usually call "shitlaw" is a better option, if you're not in debt?

I asked this question in the other thread and didn't get a response.

[romothesavior]

Right, but that's my point. You're saying that biglaw is shitty (because of hours/demands), and that going to school for free will allow you the luxury of not having to go the biglaw route. But for those who don't want gov/PI, or who want to practice in corporate law or business litigation or some other area commonly associated with biglaw, there isn't really a good alternative to biglaw.

The overwhelming number of lawyers do not work in large law firms. There are tons of jobs out there that you could do instead of biglaw... small/midsize firm, AG's office, prosecution, in-house counsel if you get extremely lucky, PI, plaintiff's firms, etc. I've found that the most truly enthusiastic lawyers I've met work at smaller firms and civil government offices (attorney general and city attorney's offices), with tons more control over their workloads and even hours.

Are these jobs difficult to get? Yes. Are there some really shitty small firm gigs out there? Yes (think the hours and stress of biglaw with crappy pay). But come on, good non-biglaw jobs exist in pretty healthy numbers. I know TLS is pretty biglaw oriented, but throwing our hands up and pretending that big law is all that's out there is just silly. Of course, these kinds of jobs are going to be lower pay than biglaw (maybe 40-60k), but 1) you have the luxury of making this choice because of having no debt, which is the point SBL and I are making, and 2) the pay for some small firms can jump up quite a bit two to three years in.

[Mr. Somebody]

Right, but that's my point. You're saying that biglaw is shitty (because of hours/demands), and that going to school for free will allow you the luxury of not having to go the biglaw route. But for those who don't want gov/PI, or who want to practice in corporate law or business litigation or some other area commonly associated with biglaw, there isn't really a good alternative to biglaw.

The overwhelming number of lawyers do not work in large law firms. There are tons of jobs out there that you could do instead of biglaw... small/midsize firm, AG's office, prosecution, in-house counsel if you get extremely lucky, PI, plaintiff's firms, etc. I've found that the most truly enthusiastic lawyers I've met work at smaller firms and civil government offices (attorney general and city attorney's offices), with tons more control over their workloads and even hours.

Are these jobs difficult to get? Yes. Are there some really shitty small firm gigs out there? Yes (think the hours and stress of biglaw with crappy pay). But come on, good non-biglaw jobs exist in pretty healthy numbers. I know TLS is pretty biglaw oriented, but throwing our hands up and pretending that big law is all that's out there is just silly. Of course, these kinds of jobs are going to be lower pay than biglaw (maybe 40-60k), but 1) you have the luxury of making this choice because of having no debt, which is the point SBL and I are making, and 2) the pay for some small firms can jump up quite a bit two to three years in.

You're naming a bunch of options that are probably even harder to get than a biglaw gig if you're coming from a T14, unless you have strong connections. The question though is what's a good alternative to biglaw if you want to do corporate law?

[romothesavior]

You're naming a bunch of options that are probably even harder to get than a biglaw gig if you're coming from a T14, unless you have strong connections. The question though is what's a good alternative to biglaw if you want to do corporate law?

Yeah, you might not be doing big corporate M&A deals or bet-the-house litigation for two Fortune 500 companies. If that's what you really want to do, then biglaw is pretty much it if you're just starting out. But a lot of people hate that kind of work, and most lawyers aren't doing it. They're no less of lawyers, and some of the stuff they get to do is pretty interesting.

To each their own I guess. But if you wind up in a biglaw firm and say, "You know what, this sucks and I think I'd like to do something else," (which ain't all that uncommon) you better hope you don't have a debt albatross around your neck.

[johansantana21]

Right, but that's my point. You're saying that biglaw is shitty (because of hours/demands), and that going to school for free will allow you the luxury of not having to go the biglaw route. But for those who don't want gov/PI, or who want to practice in corporate law or business litigation or some other area commonly associated with biglaw, there isn't really a good alternative to biglaw.

The overwhelming number of lawyers do not work in large law firms. There are tons of jobs out there that you could do instead of biglaw... small/midsize firm, AG's office, prosecution, in-house counsel if you get extremely lucky, PI, plaintiff's firms, etc. I've found that the most truly enthusiastic lawyers I've met work at smaller firms and civil government offices (attorney general and city attorney's offices), with tons more control over their workloads and even hours.

Are these jobs difficult to get? Yes. Are there some really shitty small firm gigs out there? Yes (think the hours and stress of biglaw with crappy pay). But come on, good non-biglaw jobs exist in pretty healthy numbers. I know TLS is pretty biglaw oriented, but throwing our hands up and pretending that big law is all that's out there is just silly. Of course, these kinds of jobs are going to be lower pay than biglaw (maybe 40-60k), but 1) you have the luxury of making this choice because of having no debt, which is the point SBL and I are making, and 2) the pay for some small firms can jump up quite a bit two to three years in.

Considering that even biglaw jobs don't exist in pretty healthy numbers, I think you are overestimating how many jobs there are or underestimating how many people are looking for such jobs.

[beachbum]

You're naming a bunch of options that are probably even harder to get than a biglaw gig if you're coming from a T14, unless you have strong connections. The question though is what's a good alternative to biglaw if you want to do corporate law?

Yeah, you might not be doing big corporate M&A deals or bet-the-house litigation for two Fortune 500 companies. If that's what you really want to do, then biglaw is pretty much it if you're just starting out. But a lot of people hate that kind of work, and most lawyers aren't doing it. They're no less of lawyers, and some of the stuff they get to do is pretty interesting.

To each their own I guess. But if you wind up in a biglaw firm and say, "You know what, this sucks and I think I'd like to do something else," (which ain't all that uncommon) you better hope you don't have a debt albatross around your neck.

Right, but that's what we're saying: if you want to work in a particular practice associated with biglaw (e.g., corporate, M&A, business litigation), or if you want the type of exit options commonly associated with biglaw (e.g., in-house at Fortune 500), then there isn't really an alternative career path outside of biglaw.

Of course, biglaw is a necessary evil for many. And for them, taking the free ride could make a lot of sense (although, if they're shooting for PI/gov, a strong LRAP might also be pretty helpful). But many also attend law school in hope of working in the big business-type environment, and dealing with the types of deals/cases that are typical in biglaw. And these people probably won't be able to find a similar experience outside of biglaw.

[skers]

Romo, I would think the type of jobs you're talking about are really hard to grab entry level ITE.

[20160810]

Right, but that's my point. You're saying that biglaw is shitty (because of hours/demands), and that going to school for free will allow you the luxury of not having to go the biglaw route. But for those who don't want gov/PI, or who want to practice in corporate law or business litigation or some other area commonly associated with biglaw, there isn't really a good alternative to biglaw.

The overwhelming number of lawyers do not work in large law firms. There are tons of jobs out there that you could do instead of biglaw... small/midsize firm, AG's office, prosecution, in-house counsel if you get extremely lucky, PI, plaintiff's firms, etc. I've found that the most truly enthusiastic lawyers I've met work at smaller firms and civil government offices (attorney general and city attorney's offices), with tons more control over their workloads and even hours.

Are these jobs difficult to get? Yes. Are there some really shitty small firm gigs out there? Yes (think the hours and stress of biglaw with crappy pay). But come on, good non-biglaw jobs exist in pretty healthy numbers. I know TLS is pretty biglaw oriented, but throwing our hands up and pretending that big law is all that's out there is just silly. Of course, these kinds of jobs are going to be lower pay than biglaw (maybe 40-60k), but 1) you have the luxury of making this choice because of having no debt, which is the point SBL and I are making, and 2) the pay for some small firms can jump up quite a bit two to three years in.

You're naming a bunch of options that are probably even harder to get than a biglaw gig if you're coming from a T14, unless you have strong connections. The question though is what's a good alternative to biglaw if you want to do corporate law?

I was never referring to people who want to do corporate litigation exclusively. I just meant that there is lawyering beyond biglaw, and if you don't mind starting out around $50-60K because you don't have debt to worry about, it's worth checking out things like public sector work.

[romothesavior]

^Agreed. Beachbum, I think you altered the scope of what SBL and I were talking about. You have a good point, its just not the one we were making. I agree if you are set on big M&A or corporate your options are more limited.

Johan you do understand the majority of jobs are non-biglaw, right?

[johansantana21]

^Agreed. Beachbum, I think you altered the scope of what SBL and I were talking about. You have a good point, its just not the one we were making. I agree if you are set on big M&A or corporate your options are more limited.

Johan you do understand the majority of jobs are non-biglaw, right?

Yes. But unless you are talking about PI/Gov/Midlaw/Boutique, all of which are almost as difficult as biglaw, if not more difficult to get...then the remaining jobs excluding the ones mentioned above are almost all objectively bad when it comes to paying off debt.

[skers]

^Agreed. Beachbum, I think you altered the scope of what SBL and I were talking about. You have a good point, its just not the one we were making. I agree if you are set on big M&A or corporate your options are more limited.

Johan you do understand the majority of jobs are non-biglaw, right?

Yeah, it's retarded to say those jobs don't exist, but they're difficult to get entry level ITE given the piles of experienced out of work attorneys and the cuts made in hiring across the board. Too many people at my local state school that dominates its market are jobless due to the massively increased competition.

[spleenworship]

Romo, I would think the type of jobs you're talking about are really hard to grab entry level ITE.

I go to a T2 state school. Every year at least half our grads end up working at midsize, boutique, small firms throughout the area. These jobs aren't impossible to get ITE... mostly, I think, because all y'all T14 people are so Biglaw and PI focused. If T14 grads started seriously competing at plaintiff's and crim defense firms in smaller metro areas my schoolmates would possibly be totally boned. Of course, if I was hiring at a small plaintiff's med-mal firm I would wonder why in the hell a Harvard grad wanted to work for me... so I guess that is a double edged sword.

[Simplicity]

Any other type of entry-level legal job you can get?

Like... what? Not to be a dick, but my 1L mind is having trouble considering the alternatives. You're probably not gonna get an in-house spot straight out of school (and your in-house options will be severely limited by not doing biglaw). Midlaw is gonna be tough to swing, and I'm not convinced that midlaw hours are appreciably better than many biglaw firms. Gov and PI are on the table, but those of us who were leaning towards biglaw/corporate might not be very enthusiastic about these types of options.

So, I dunno, what's left? For those of us who are interested in the career path that biglaw provides, I'm not sure we can get that same (or a similar) experience elsewhere.

McKinsey, Bain, BCG, etc. Your hours probably wouldn't be any better working at a management consulting firm, but I'm sure the work would be much more enjoyable.

You would probably have better exit opportunities working at any one of those three firms, tbh.

[AreJay711]

Any other type of entry-level legal job you can get?

Like... what? Not to be a dick, but my 1L mind is having trouble considering the alternatives. You're probably not gonna get an in-house spot straight out of school (and your in-house options will be severely limited by not doing biglaw). Midlaw is gonna be tough to swing, and I'm not convinced that midlaw hours are appreciably better than many biglaw firms. Gov and PI are on the table, but those of us who were leaning towards biglaw/corporate might not be very enthusiastic about these types of options.

So, I dunno, what's left? For those of us who are interested in the career path that biglaw provides, I'm not sure we can get that same (or a similar) experience elsewhere.

McKinsey, Bain, BCG, etc. Your hours probably wouldn't be any better working at a management consulting firm, but I'm sure the work would be much more enjoyable.

You would probably have better exit opportunities working at any one of those three firms, tbh.

I think it takes a special person to find those types of jobs enjoyable (not that the same isn't true of biglaw).

[Mr. Somebody]

Any other type of entry-level legal job you can get?

Like... what? Not to be a dick, but my 1L mind is having trouble considering the alternatives. You're probably not gonna get an in-house spot straight out of school (and your in-house options will be severely limited by not doing biglaw). Midlaw is gonna be tough to swing, and I'm not convinced that midlaw hours are appreciably better than many biglaw firms. Gov and PI are on the table, but those of us who were leaning towards biglaw/corporate might not be very enthusiastic about these types of options.

So, I dunno, what's left? For those of us who are interested in the career path that biglaw provides, I'm not sure we can get that same (or a similar) experience elsewhere.

McKinsey, Bain, BCG, etc. Your hours probably wouldn't be any better working at a management consulting firm, but I'm sure the work would be much more enjoyable.

You would probably have better exit opportunities working at any one of those three firms, tbh.

Again arent these just as hard to get as biglaw, probably harder?

[keg411]

Romo, I would think the type of jobs you're talking about are really hard to grab entry level ITE.

I go to a T2 state school. Every year at least half our grads end up working at midsize, boutique, small firms throughout the area. These jobs aren't impossible to get ITE... mostly, I think, because all y'all T14 people are so Biglaw and PI focused. If T14 grads started seriously competing at plaintiff's and crim defense firms in smaller metro areas my schoolmates would possibly be totally boned. Of course, if I was hiring at a small plaintiff's med-mal firm I would wonder why in the hell a Harvard grad wanted to work for me... so I guess that is a double edged sword.

I agree with this. There are small/midsized firms that start around $30-60k depending on market that are perfectly fine jobs. A lot of them are pushed aside as "shitlaw", but I think that's really overgeneralizing and all in all, it's far better then doing contract work or doc review.

I have a pretty decent amount of acquaintances and friends who have graduated non-T14 law schools in the past few years (T1's and T2's) and although some of them were unemployed for a while on graduation, they all have real, J.D. required jobs now. And these weren't people with crazy honors or anything like that.

[skers]

Romo, I would think the type of jobs you're talking about are really hard to grab entry level ITE.

I go to a T2 state school. Every year at least half our grads end up working at midsize, boutique, small firms throughout the area. These jobs aren't impossible to get ITE... mostly, I think, because all y'all T14 people are so Biglaw and PI focused. If T14 grads started seriously competing at plaintiff's and crim defense firms in smaller metro areas my schoolmates would possibly be totally boned. Of course, if I was hiring at a small plaintiff's med-mal firm I would wonder why in the hell a Harvard grad wanted to work for me... so I guess that is a double edged sword.

I do think there is a on TLS tendency to conflate all nont14 schools' employment opportunities. It's not like solid T2s have the same fuckery as a Nova or Barry.

That said, what does the other half of the class do?

[Dale]

Who doesn’t have debt―aside from trust fund babies and those with parents footing bills? Even with a tuition [scholarship] discount, you are stuck with tuition debt, plus books, moving (in some cases) and three years of living expenses. I would venture a guess that before taking the bar a low-ball debt estimate would be $125K, but probably more. Especially for those living in big expensive northeastern metropolises or anywhere in CA.

Going straight from UG to a $50K job probably works out OK (not living large, but decent). But with law debt piled on UG debt. . .how can you not aim for Big Law or firms where +$75K is entry-level or at least doable (with bonuses, if need be). If ITE continues to be an acronym that is still with us for much longer, the numbers will not add up for a fourth of those in class today. It is possible that, wherever you attend, this year's grad class (as in a third or more) are toast.