what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

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ypark87
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what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby ypark87 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:33 pm

I'm not for or against the statement, "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $10million debt, hate your life, and never have a chance to be happy ever again" but I was wondering what everybody's take on this was. It's just that on any opinion of anyone trying to get into law school that's not an Ivy or t14, there's at least 2+ posts that say, "It's not worth it you're making a huge mistake"

So is that truly the case?? t14 or bust??

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JamMasterJ
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby JamMasterJ » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:35 pm

People that echo that sentiment have several distinctions. The most general one being that you shouldn't go outside the T14 without a sizeable, guaranteed scholarship. The other schools just don't have the biglaw placement or LRAP that can make up for all that debt. It's not worth the risk, allegedly.

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ben4847
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby ben4847 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:40 pm

ypark87 wrote:I'm not for or against the statement, "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $10million debt, hate your life, and never have a chance to be happy ever again" but I was wondering what everybody's take on this was. It's just that on any opinion of anyone trying to get into law school that's not an Ivy or t14, there's at least 2+ posts that say, "It's not worth it you're making a huge mistake"

So is that truly the case?? t14 or bust??


There is no reason to exaggerate. The correct quote is: "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $200,000 debt, be unemployed or making 40-65, have little room for career advancement, and that had better be something that you will be happy with."

It is also true for about 1/3 or more of students at T14s.

ypark87
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby ypark87 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:42 pm

ben4847 wrote:
ypark87 wrote:I'm not for or against the statement, "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $10million debt, hate your life, and never have a chance to be happy ever again" but I was wondering what everybody's take on this was. It's just that on any opinion of anyone trying to get into law school that's not an Ivy or t14, there's at least 2+ posts that say, "It's not worth it you're making a huge mistake"

So is that truly the case?? t14 or bust??


There is no reason to exaggerate. The correct quote is: "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $200,000 debt, be unemployed or making 40-65, have little room for career advancement, and that had better be something that you will be happy with."

It is also true for about 1/3 or more of students at T14s.


Sorry I wasn't trying to exaggerate in order to be a jerk. Is the statement still true with scholarship money? Although, isn't scholly money (i.e. money you never have to pay back) pretty hard to come by for an average school? Or is that too much of a generalization.

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ben4847
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby ben4847 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:46 pm

ypark87 wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
ypark87 wrote:I'm not for or against the statement, "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $10million debt, hate your life, and never have a chance to be happy ever again" but I was wondering what everybody's take on this was. It's just that on any opinion of anyone trying to get into law school that's not an Ivy or t14, there's at least 2+ posts that say, "It's not worth it you're making a huge mistake"

So is that truly the case?? t14 or bust??


There is no reason to exaggerate. The correct quote is: "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $200,000 debt, be unemployed or making 40-65, have little room for career advancement, and that had better be something that you will be happy with."

It is also true for about 1/3 or more of students at T14s.


Sorry I wasn't trying to exaggerate in order to be a jerk. Is the statement still true with scholarship money? Although, isn't scholly money (i.e. money you never have to pay back) pretty hard to come by for an average school? Or is that too much of a generalization.


The statement is not an opinion issue. We law students are all quite aware of our employment prospects and debt levels. Many of us are much more aware than we were as 0L's (I will be summering at a V25, but would probably not have gone to school if I had been aware of the risk I was taking.). We are just trying to help the current batch of 0Ls to not make the dumb decisions we did, and to be informed of their decisions.

apollo2015
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby apollo2015 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:56 pm

It largely depends on how much you want to be a lawyer, and on what your other options are. If you are not interested as much in being a lawyer as you are in making money your optimal course of action is presumably different from someone who really wants to get his JD.

The debt of law school is (in my opinion) inconsiderable compared to the time investment you are putting into law school. 3 years of your life are priceless, so use them wisely.

mrloblaw
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby mrloblaw » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:20 pm

ypark87 wrote:I'm not for or against the statement, "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $10million debt, hate your life, and never have a chance to be happy ever again" but I was wondering what everybody's take on this was. It's just that on any opinion of anyone trying to get into law school that's not an Ivy or t14, there's at least 2+ posts that say, "It's not worth it you're making a huge mistake"

So is that truly the case?? t14 or bust??


The only thing I disagree with is the implication that those who do get into a T14 may have a chance to be happy.

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ganggreen
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby ganggreen » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:21 am

ypark87 wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
ypark87 wrote:I'm not for or against the statement, "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $10million debt, hate your life, and never have a chance to be happy ever again" but I was wondering what everybody's take on this was. It's just that on any opinion of anyone trying to get into law school that's not an Ivy or t14, there's at least 2+ posts that say, "It's not worth it you're making a huge mistake"

So is that truly the case?? t14 or bust??


There is no reason to exaggerate. The correct quote is: "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $200,000 debt, be unemployed or making 40-65, have little room for career advancement, and that had better be something that you will be happy with."

It is also true for about 1/3 or more of students at T14s.


Sorry I wasn't trying to exaggerate in order to be a jerk. Is the statement still true with scholarship money? Although, isn't scholly money (i.e. money you never have to pay back) pretty hard to come by for an average school? Or is that too much of a generalization.


This is exactly the problem I'm facing now: attend a good school (ranked somewhere between 20 and 30) with a huge scholarship, or pay sticker at a T14. I'm pretty risk-averse. I honestly have no idea what to do.

American_in_China
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby American_in_China » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:26 am

ganggreen wrote:
ypark87 wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
ypark87 wrote:I'm not for or against the statement, "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $10million debt, hate your life, and never have a chance to be happy ever again" but I was wondering what everybody's take on this was. It's just that on any opinion of anyone trying to get into law school that's not an Ivy or t14, there's at least 2+ posts that say, "It's not worth it you're making a huge mistake"

So is that truly the case?? t14 or bust??


There is no reason to exaggerate. The correct quote is: "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $200,000 debt, be unemployed or making 40-65, have little room for career advancement, and that had better be something that you will be happy with."


It is also true for about 1/3 or more of students at T14s.


Sorry I wasn't trying to exaggerate in order to be a jerk. Is the statement still true with scholarship money? Although, isn't scholly money (i.e. money you never have to pay back) pretty hard to come by for an average school? Or is that too much of a generalization.


This is exactly the problem I'm facing now: attend a good school (ranked somewhere between 20 and 30) with a huge scholarship, or pay sticker at a T14. I'm pretty risk-averse. I honestly have no idea what to do.


T20-30, if you have contacts where that school is, and you'd be happy working there. Otherwise, T14.

joebruin2.0
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby joebruin2.0 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:07 am

I'll choke the next 0L who says they just know they want to be a lawyer. Guess what - you don't know s*%t. I'll break down what a lawyer is - he/she isn't a free thinking legal philosopher, helping to bring light to the darkest of corners - he/she is at best, a cog in the machine of the corporate world, finding ways they can hose over the other corporation, or dump toxic sludge behind some small town in Iowa. At worst, they are litigation creators simply to line their own pockets, doing nothing to help society, but working actively to destroy it.

And yes, there are constitutional law attorneys... 3 of them, and they aren't about to give up their cushy jobs anytime soon.

Save your time, money, and soul, just go get a job, or start building, or inventing something. Going to law school is for the a%#holes who can't do anything else (trust me, I should know). And the cosmic joke, is that now, it's just a ticket to a life doing a horrific job, and getting owned with a mountain of non-dischargeable debt - and that's for the lucky ones.

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Errzii
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Errzii » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:29 am

My advice is to pick law schools as if you were choosing sexual partners.

T14 = attractive virgin
T1 = less attractive person, but would still bang given the right conditions. Not 100% sure about sex history, use a condom.
TTT = ugly STD infected [HI I'M THE WORD FILTER. THIS PERSON MIGHT BE A DICK.], stay away from at all costs, unless you're into that sort of thing.

HTH.

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Grizz
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Grizz » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:40 pm

T13 bro

apollo2015
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby apollo2015 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:00 pm

ganggreen wrote:This is exactly the problem I'm facing now: attend a good school (ranked somewhere between 20 and 30) with a huge scholarship, or pay sticker at a T14. I'm pretty risk-averse. I honestly have no idea what to do.


Consider where their alumni are. Is the T30 in the region you want to practice in? Is the T-14 in that region? Is the T-14 closer in prominence to Yale or University of Texas?

I would pick Yale without a scholarship as opposed to T-20 with one. Conversely, I wouldn't bet on Texas unless I live in Texas.

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BruceWayne
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:10 pm

apollo2015 wrote:
ganggreen wrote:This is exactly the problem I'm facing now: attend a good school (ranked somewhere between 20 and 30) with a huge scholarship, or pay sticker at a T14. I'm pretty risk-averse. I honestly have no idea what to do.


Consider where their alumni are. Is the T30 in the region you want to practice in? Is the T-14 in that region? Is the T-14 closer in prominence to Yale or University of Texas?

I would pick Yale without a scholarship as opposed to T-20 with one. Conversely, I wouldn't bet on Texas unless I live in Texas.


Texas is a really good school; probably tied with Vandy for the best non top 14. I can't think of any other non top 14 schools that give you as good a shot at a decent job as those two (UCLA and USC are in a very tough market). Outside of the top 14 Texas is by far the most respected school in its region (and the top 14 won't necessarily do you any better in that region if you don't have ties). Vandy is the most respected school in its region outside of HYS and UVA/Duke and because a most students at the latter two do not target the South a Vandy applicant is often at the top of the pile for jobs in the region.

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ganggreen
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby ganggreen » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:24 pm

apollo2015 wrote:
ganggreen wrote:This is exactly the problem I'm facing now: attend a good school (ranked somewhere between 20 and 30) with a huge scholarship, or pay sticker at a T14. I'm pretty risk-averse. I honestly have no idea what to do.


Consider where their alumni are. Is the T30 in the region you want to practice in? Is the T-14 in that region? Is the T-14 closer in prominence to Yale or University of Texas?

I would pick Yale without a scholarship as opposed to T-20 with one. Conversely, I wouldn't bet on Texas unless I live in Texas.


It's UVA, so I guess somewhere in between haha. I'm not too particular as to where I end up -- I could see myself in DC, NY, or Boston (in other words, East Coast. I'm not really familiar with the South at all). The T30s so far are W&L and W&M, plus BC and BU if I get money.

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Nelson
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Nelson » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:27 pm

ganggreen wrote:
apollo2015 wrote:
ganggreen wrote:This is exactly the problem I'm facing now: attend a good school (ranked somewhere between 20 and 30) with a huge scholarship, or pay sticker at a T14. I'm pretty risk-averse. I honestly have no idea what to do.


Consider where their alumni are. Is the T30 in the region you want to practice in? Is the T-14 in that region? Is the T-14 closer in prominence to Yale or University of Texas?

I would pick Yale without a scholarship as opposed to T-20 with one. Conversely, I wouldn't bet on Texas unless I live in Texas.


It's UVA, so I guess somewhere in between haha. I'm not too particular as to where I end up -- I could see myself in DC, NY, or Boston (in other words, East Coast. I'm not really familiar with the South at all). The T30s so far are W&L and W&M, plus BC and BU if I get money.

If it's UVA vs. W&L or W&M, UVA is a no brainer. I saw W&L's employment stats from last year in the thread from a few days ago. They're pretty grim.

BU/BC with a decent scholarship I think you could make an argument for if you want to practice in Boston, but I would personally still vote UVA for greater flexibility.

Eliyahu7
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Eliyahu7 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:33 pm

It all comes down to finding a job. As you get outside of the T14 the prospect get incrementally more bleak. That being said, a lower tiered school can be worth attending if you are (a) in a smaller regional market with less competition (think less populated states) or (b) well connected prior to enrollment. Otherwise, know what you are getting yourself into.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby whuts4lunch » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:34 pm

ganggreen wrote:This is exactly the problem I'm facing now: attend a good school (ranked somewhere between 20 and 30) with a huge scholarship, or pay sticker at a T14. I'm pretty risk-averse. I honestly have no idea what to do.


Take the scholarship. Think about it this way, would you rather go to the T14 for free or go to the T30 and be handed $150,000 (or even $75,000)? Also, think about how sick it would be if you could pull off landing a 160k starting job with a loan payment below $400, which is not a possibility at the T14 school but a very real possibility at the T30.

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Nelson
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Nelson » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:41 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
ganggreen wrote:This is exactly the problem I'm facing now: attend a good school (ranked somewhere between 20 and 30) with a huge scholarship, or pay sticker at a T14. I'm pretty risk-averse. I honestly have no idea what to do.


Take the scholarship. Think about it this way, would you rather go to the T14 for free or go to the T30 and be handed $150,000 (or even $75,000)? Also, think about how sick it would be if you could pull off landing a 160k starting job with a loan payment below $400, which is not a possibility at the T14 school but a very real possibility at the T30.

If the T30 is W&L, you should know that only 14 people got "biglaw" out of W&L last year.

http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Admission ... 0Month.pdf

W&M did slightly better, with 33 in the NLJ250. Still not good though.

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Veyron
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:45 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
ypark87 wrote:I'm not for or against the statement, "Unless you get into a T14, you are most likely going to be living in $10million debt, hate your life, and never have a chance to be happy ever again" but I was wondering what everybody's take on this was. It's just that on any opinion of anyone trying to get into law school that's not an Ivy or t14, there's at least 2+ posts that say, "It's not worth it you're making a huge mistake"

So is that truly the case?? t14 or bust??


The only thing I disagree with is the implication that those who do get into a T14 may have a chance to be happy.


Tragically underrated.

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Cupidity
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Cupidity » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:05 pm

It's because there are people like me at T30's in the top 10% still looking for a summer job as a 2l.

paradox
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby paradox » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:14 pm

Does anyone know:

1. what % of a T14 graduating class customarily get hired at a BigLaw firm? [yes, I know that not al14 schools have the same percent but there must be some overall average.]

2. what % of the associates hired at a BigLaw firm make partner?

The reason I ask is that I believe that I read a month or so ago that the number of associates making partner at a BigLaw firm is approximately 15% which percent is far less than a decade ago. Can anyone confirm.

IMO, if someone is in the path to attend law school and their sole interest is money, not a desire to practice law, then they should change course and get their MBA and pursue a position with a private equity company.

Good Luck.

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bk1
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby bk1 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:18 pm

paradox wrote:what % of a T14 graduating class customarily get hired at a BigLaw firm? [yes, I know that not al14 schools have the same percent but there must be some overall average.]


Roughly half, maybe slightly more maybe slightly less.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... OLS_REPORT
Last edited by bk1 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AreJay711
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:20 pm

It makes sense for 90% of people on here that do not actually know if they would like to work as an attorney. It isn't like T100 schools without a scholarship is bad for everyone, but those people who it makes sense for do not know who they are beforehand.

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Veyron
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Re: what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment??

Postby Veyron » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:11 pm

paradox wrote:Does anyone know:

1. what % of a T14 graduating class customarily get hired at a BigLaw firm? [yes, I know that not al14 schools have the same percent but there must be some overall average.]

2. what % of the associates hired at a BigLaw firm make partner?

The reason I ask is that I believe that I read a month or so ago that the number of associates making partner at a BigLaw firm is approximately 15% which percent is far less than a decade ago. Can anyone confirm.

IMO, if someone is in the path to attend law school and their sole interest is money, not a desire to practice law, then they should change course and get their MBA and pursue a position with a private equity company.

Good Luck.


1. Median across the T-14 is probably in the 50-60% ballpark (depending on what you consider biglaw etc).

2. Median firm is probably about 10% (depends on the firm, varies widely)

3. Averages are for M.D.s chump.




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