Florida Legal Market

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JuneLSATFail
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Florida Legal Market

Postby JuneLSATFail » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:42 pm

I don't hear about the Florida legal market much on this forum, is the Florida legal market dismal (more dismal than the norm)? What law schools place in the Florida market? Is it something like t-14 and then Florida regional schools or do schools like UGA, Emory, UNC, or Wake place there as well?

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mrtoren
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby mrtoren » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:13 pm

I've heard nothing but bad things about the Florida legal market on these forums. The order is usually:

T14 ------> UF or FSU --------------------> U Miami ------> Other FL schools

Out-of-state schools that are also outside of the T14 will not place nearly as well as those in Florida. This is true of nearly every market though. If you go to those schools, you'll probably have to do some legwork.

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pjo
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby pjo » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:23 pm

How about a T14 grad with only soft ties to the market? The problem I'm finding when I look more into FL is that there's just not too many big law firms in the state (excluding the very small branch offices of big firms). Does anyone have any insight into what types of law are in most demand in the FL market?

duckmoney
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby duckmoney » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:28 pm

mrtoren wrote:I've heard nothing but bad things about the Florida legal market on these forums. The order is usually:

T14 ------> UF or FSU --------------------> U Miami ------> Other FL schools

Out-of-state schools that are also outside of the T14 will not place nearly as well as those in Florida. This is true of nearly every market though. If you go to those schools, you'll probably have to do some legwork.


Vanderbilt places very well in Florida, as well as the lower T14 schools. Texas would probably be better than UF, and so would Emory, to a lessor extent. Otherwise, this is correct. UF or FSU is better than almost any other out of state school, including nearby ones and highly ranked ones (UCLA, BU, UGA).

Also, if you don't have ties, and don't go to a Florida school, don't even bother applying.

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romothesavior
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:50 pm

duckmoney wrote:
mrtoren wrote:I've heard nothing but bad things about the Florida legal market on these forums. The order is usually:

T14 ------> UF or FSU --------------------> U Miami ------> Other FL schools

Out-of-state schools that are also outside of the T14 will not place nearly as well as those in Florida. This is true of nearly every market though. If you go to those schools, you'll probably have to do some legwork.


Vanderbilt places very well in Florida, as well as the lower T14 schools. Texas would probably be better than UF, and so would Emory, to a lessor extent. Otherwise, this is correct. UF or FSU is better than almost any other out of state school, including nearby ones and highly ranked ones (UCLA, BU, UGA).

Also, if you don't have ties, and don't go to a Florida school, don't even bother applying.

I agree re: Vanderbilt with ties. But I'd be surprised if Texas was better for Florida than UF, and I'd be shocked if Emory was better than UF.

OP, you'll want to talk to rad lulz. He knows a lot about the market.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:10 pm

What is wrong with this picture?

Ave Maria School of Law
Barry University Dwayne O. Andreas School of Law
Florida A&M University College of Law
Florida Coastal School of Law
University of Florida, Fredric G. Levin College of Law
Florida International University College of Law
The Florida State University College of Law
University of Miami School of Law University of Miami School of Law
Nova Southeastern University—Shepard Broad Law Center
St. Thomas University School of Law
Stetson University College of Law

Don't worry though, Cooley is building a campus down in Florida too.

RodneyBoonfield
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby RodneyBoonfield » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:00 pm

UF dominates the legal market. UM is comparable in Miami. FSU and Stetson both do well. Stetson is strong in the Tampa area. You can't really go wrong with any of these schools for FL, although I think that UF is definitely the best. Other strong regional schools that were mentioned are good, but they (mostly) can't compete with UF Alum loyalty. That said, good schools with strong alum bases in FL can increase your odds of cracking the market. For me, it was strong Alum base + ties.

duckmoney
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby duckmoney » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:06 pm

RodneyBoonfield wrote:UF dominates the legal market. UM is comparable in Miami. FSU and Stetson both do well. Stetson is strong in the Tampa area. You can't really go wrong with any of these schools for FL, although I think that UF is definitely the best. Other strong regional schools that were mentioned are good, but they (mostly) can't compete with UF Alum loyalty. That said, good schools with strong alum bases in FL can increase your odds of cracking the market. For me, it was strong Alum base + ties.


You can absolutely go wrong with all of these schools. The Florida market is garbage. There's a good chance that you will be unemployed when you graduate from any of these schools. The chance is much lower than say, Florida Coastal, but a large percentage of grads even at schools like UF and FSU can't find work these days.

I wouldn't take on much debt to go to any of these schools, even UF, which is the best school listed. Also note that UF has been ramping up its tuition lately, so it's no longer the super cheap option.

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pjo
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby pjo » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:08 pm

What about from the T14? If you don't have ties are you basically still screwed for the market? Anything you can do to overcome lack of ties (other than have top grades)?

arigoldwannabe
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby arigoldwannabe » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:15 pm

1L @ FSU. Top 6%.

Anyone have any information at my odds for the larger firms in the state (Carlton Fields, Akerman, H&K, GT, GrayRobinson...) or the Vault firm's satellite offices in MIA??

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caputlupinum
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby caputlupinum » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:57 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:What is wrong with this picture?

Ave Maria School of Law
Barry University Dwayne O. Andreas School of Law
Florida A&M University College of Law
Florida Coastal School of Law
University of Florida, Fredric G. Levin College of Law
Florida International University College of Law
The Florida State University College of Law
University of Miami School of Law University of Miami School of Law
Nova Southeastern University—Shepard Broad Law Center
St. Thomas University School of Law
Stetson University College of Law

Don't worry though, Cooley is building a campus down in Florida too.



Not to discount this but you do realize that Florida is bigger than Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island combined?

duckmoney
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby duckmoney » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:48 pm

arigoldwannabe wrote:1L @ FSU. Top 6%.

Anyone have any information at my odds for the larger firms in the state (Carlton Fields, Akerman, H&K, GT, GrayRobinson...) or the Vault firm's satellite offices in MIA??


Probably solidly in the running, especially in markets you have strong ties to. The huge firms like H&K, GT, Foley, and the NYC satellite offices tend to favor T14. The smaller and more local firms (GrayRobinson, Gunster, Fowler White, Broad and Cassel) are more likely to hire from FL schools.

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romothesavior
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:38 am

duckmoney wrote:
RodneyBoonfield wrote:UF dominates the legal market. UM is comparable in Miami. FSU and Stetson both do well. Stetson is strong in the Tampa area. You can't really go wrong with any of these schools for FL, although I think that UF is definitely the best. Other strong regional schools that were mentioned are good, but they (mostly) can't compete with UF Alum loyalty. That said, good schools with strong alum bases in FL can increase your odds of cracking the market. For me, it was strong Alum base + ties.


You can absolutely go wrong with all of these schools. The Florida market is garbage. There's a good chance that you will be unemployed when you graduate from any of these schools. The chance is much lower than say, Florida Coastal, but a large percentage of grads even at schools like UF and FSU can't find work these days.

I wouldn't take on much debt to go to any of these schools, even UF, which is the best school listed. Also note that UF has been ramping up its tuition lately, so it's no longer the super cheap option.

+1. I mean, even if "Stetson is strong in the Tampa area," what does that mean in terms of real numbers? They put a handful of their students into the few big firms there, and others get jobs in small firms, government, and PI? Okay, I can buy that. But Stetson has over 1,000 students. Even if 100 Stetson graduates have good outcomes each year (which is probably a generous estimate given how small the Tampa market is), what in the hell are the other 200+ students supposed to do?

The same can be said for Florida, FSU, and Miami. Yeah they may "dominate" their market, but even if every job in the state went to these four schools (which they don't), you'd still have a lot of unemployed and underemployed graduates in the state of Florida. So yes, you absolutely can go wrong at these schols.

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caputlupinum
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby caputlupinum » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:54 am

romothesavior wrote:
duckmoney wrote:
RodneyBoonfield wrote:UF dominates the legal market. UM is comparable in Miami. FSU and Stetson both do well. Stetson is strong in the Tampa area. You can't really go wrong with any of these schools for FL, although I think that UF is definitely the best. Other strong regional schools that were mentioned are good, but they (mostly) can't compete with UF Alum loyalty. That said, good schools with strong alum bases in FL can increase your odds of cracking the market. For me, it was strong Alum base + ties.


You can absolutely go wrong with all of these schools. The Florida market is garbage. There's a good chance that you will be unemployed when you graduate from any of these schools. The chance is much lower than say, Florida Coastal, but a large percentage of grads even at schools like UF and FSU can't find work these days.

I wouldn't take on much debt to go to any of these schools, even UF, which is the best school listed. Also note that UF has been ramping up its tuition lately, so it's no longer the super cheap option.

+1. I mean, even if "Stetson is strong in the Tampa area," what does that mean in terms of real numbers? They put a handful of their students into the few big firms there, and others get jobs in small firms, government, and PI? Okay, I can buy that. But Stetson has over 1,000 students. Even if 100 Stetson graduates have good outcomes each year (which is probably a generous estimate given how small the Tampa market is), what in the hell are the other 200+ students supposed to do?

The same can be said for Florida, FSU, and Miami. Yeah they may "dominate" their market, but even if every job in the state went to these four schools (which they don't), you'd still have a lot of unemployed and underemployed graduates in the state of Florida. So yes, you absolutely can go wrong at these schols.


So if you have no ties to Florida whatsoever besides visiting the place a lot where would you go to school if you wanted to work in non-south florida areas of Florida?


edit - barring HYS

ralph_pootawn
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby ralph_pootawn » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:33 am

Will ccn with strong ties get u FloridA?

timbs4339
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:55 am

ralph_pootawn wrote:Will ccn with strong ties get u FloridA?


Probably, provided you work there during 1L summer and you conduct your own mass mailing and networking campaign- which includes visiting with local attorneys over break and applying to all biglaw firms as a 1L even if you know you will get rejected.

Secondary markets are not a picnic even at CCN. A lot of top students use them as fallbacks during OCI which means you will be competing for very few callback slots against people who are likely to do DC/NYC anyway. You really need to bust ass to establish that you are serious about going back there and you only get a year to do it.

arigoldwannabe
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby arigoldwannabe » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:01 pm

duckmoney wrote:
arigoldwannabe wrote:1L @ FSU. Top 6%.

Anyone have any information at my odds for the larger firms in the state (Carlton Fields, Akerman, H&K, GT, GrayRobinson...) or the Vault firm's satellite offices in MIA??


Probably solidly in the running, especially in markets you have strong ties to. The huge firms like H&K, GT, Foley, and the NYC satellite offices tend to favor T14. The smaller and more local firms (GrayRobinson, Gunster, Fowler White, Broad and Cassel) are more likely to hire from FL schools.


So would I be in a better spot staying where I am or attempting to transfer to the T-14?

FYI: I have significant ties throughout S. Florida.

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20130312
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:09 pm

caputlupinum wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:What is wrong with this picture?

Ave Maria School of Law
Barry University Dwayne O. Andreas School of Law
Florida A&M University College of Law
Florida Coastal School of Law
University of Florida, Fredric G. Levin College of Law
Florida International University College of Law
The Florida State University College of Law
University of Miami School of Law University of Miami School of Law
Nova Southeastern University—Shepard Broad Law Center
St. Thomas University School of Law
Stetson University College of Law

Don't worry though, Cooley is building a campus down in Florida too.



Not to discount this but you do realize that Florida is bigger than Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island combined?


I don't see how square mileage of a state matters, in this context. Even if it did, Florida has more law schools than Texas (a considerably larger state).

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caputlupinum
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby caputlupinum » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:02 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
caputlupinum wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:What is wrong with this picture?

Ave Maria School of Law
Barry University Dwayne O. Andreas School of Law
Florida A&M University College of Law
Florida Coastal School of Law
University of Florida, Fredric G. Levin College of Law
Florida International University College of Law
The Florida State University College of Law
University of Miami School of Law University of Miami School of Law
Nova Southeastern University—Shepard Broad Law Center
St. Thomas University School of Law
Stetson University College of Law

Don't worry though, Cooley is building a campus down in Florida too.



Not to discount this but you do realize that Florida is bigger than Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island combined?


I don't see how square mileage of a state matters, in this context. Even if it did, Florida has more law schools than Texas (a considerably larger state).

I am not saying it matters much at all but with a state that size you would expect it to have more law schools than say Massachusetts. Though obviously population should be the driving factor which I would guess is not.
Sort of population does equate
MA 6,587,536
VT 626,431
NH 1,318,194
CT 3,580,709
RI 1,051,302
DE 907,135
NJ 8,821,155

Totaling around 23 million

to

Fl 19,057,542

edit: Also while Florida is only 20% the size of Texas, Florida has a population 75% the size of Texas's population

edit again: just to look at the law schools in these states:
MA - 7
VT - 1
NH - 1
CT - 3
RI - 1
DE - 1
NJ - 3
Total: 17

to

FL - 11

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20130312
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:21 pm

NJ is the single most densely populated state in the US, and it does just fine with three schools. Florida has too many.

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caputlupinum
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby caputlupinum » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:23 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:NJ is the single most densely populated state in the US, and it does just fine with three schools. Florida has too many.


NJ has 8.8 mil people to serve FL has 19?? they should have 3 law schools?

Also I don't agree they have too many but I don't think the problem is a big as people make it out to be it is all relative...

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20130312
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:24 pm

caputlupinum wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:NJ is the single most densely populated state in the US, and it does just fine with three schools. Florida has too many.


NJ has 8.8 mil people to serve FL has 19?? they should have 3 law schools?


Yes, because saying they have too many is the same as saying they should only have three.

They'd do fine with about half of what they have now.

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caputlupinum
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby caputlupinum » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:26 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
caputlupinum wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:NJ is the single most densely populated state in the US, and it does just fine with three schools. Florida has too many.


NJ has 8.8 mil people to serve FL has 19?? they should have 3 law schools?


Yes, because saying they have too many is the same as saying they should only have three.

They'd do fine with about half of what they have now.


I agree I just don't think people realize how much bigger in size and population FL is than New England states...

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Cupidity
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby Cupidity » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:33 pm

Florida has a large but decentralized legal market. Aside from a few 100-150 attorney biglaw offices in Miami and Tampa, the typical Florida law firm is 25-50, with salaries around 75k starting (which, adjusted for COL, is easily worth 160k in NYC/DC). There is a very substantial mid-law market, with many purely Floridian firms with a handful of offices in Jax, Orlando, Miami, West Palm Beach, and Tampa.

The key to doing well in Florida is to become a specialist, as you see very few big firms that hire "litigation associates." More often you need to develop an interest such as, real estate law, employment law, products liability, construction law, etc., and then target mid-sized firms specializing in that practice.

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20130312
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Re: Florida Legal Market

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:34 pm

Estates. All those old people are going away eventually.




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