W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

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gpnm
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W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby gpnm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:01 pm

Before I start my stats are 161/3.75 (might be able to get it to 3.8 by the end of my last semester).

W&L: Offered 15k with 3.15 GPA stipulation; allegedly, 70% of students maintain this.
Buffalo: 7k with 3.0 GPA stipulation
Rutgers: 8k
Dozo: Accepted but no scholly offer yet.
Hofstra: Accepted but no scholly offer yet.

Waiting:
Northwestern (obviously not realistic; applied b/c of fee waiver)
BLS
W&M

I'm possibly interested in biglaw or securities law, and Dozo seems to place slightly better than W&L. I'm from NYC, but no real geographic preference. Maybe I can negotiate a scholly from Dozo leveraging W&L which is ranked 30. Or maybe W&L is a better choice? The COL is dirt cheap and so far, their admission process has really impressed me - very quick and efficient.

Comments? Opinions? Suggestions?

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Nelson
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby Nelson » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:03 pm

gpnm wrote:Before I start my stats are 161/3.75 (might be able to get it to 3.8 by the end of my last semester).

W&L: Offered 15k with 3.15 GPA stipulation; allegedly, 70% of students maintain this.
Buffalo: 7k with 3.0 GPA stipulation
Rutgers: 8k
Dozo: Accepted but no scholly offer yet.
Hofstra: Accepted but no scholly offer yet.

Waiting:
Northwestern (obviously not realistic; applied b/c of fee waiver)
BLS
W&M

I'm possibly interested in biglaw or securities law, and Dozo seems to place slightly better than W&L. I'm from NYC, but no real geographic preference. Maybe I can negotiate a scholly from Dozo leveraging W&L which is ranked 30. Or maybe W&L is a better choice? The COL is dirt cheap and so far, their admission process has really impressed me - very quick and efficient.

Comments? Opinions? Suggestions?

Rutgers with 8k and instate is the least financially ruinous option. Otherwise, retake and don't go K-JD.

law2015
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby law2015 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:06 pm

If you want biglaw, retake the lsat and reapply next year. Biglaw is highly unlikely at any of the schools you listed above.

gpnm
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby gpnm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:09 pm

Like I said, biglaw is an interest, but by no means am I wedded to it. I wouldn't be opposed to a gov job for instance.

Retake isn't really an option now for a variety of reasons.

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Nelson
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby Nelson » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:21 pm

gpnm wrote:Like I said, biglaw is an interest, but by no means am I wedded to it. I wouldn't be opposed to a gov job for instance.

No one on TLS is going to endorse those schools at anywhere near sticker. You should go somewhere in your home market and keep your tuition and COL debt as low as possible.
gpnm wrote:Retake isn't really an option now for a variety of reasons.

If those reasons are that you don't want to look for a job or that your parents expect you to go to law school next year, you should reconsider.

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Grizz
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:30 pm

gpnm wrote:Like I said, biglaw is an interest, but by no means am I wedded to it. I wouldn't be opposed to a gov job for instance.

Retake isn't really an option now for a variety of reasons.

Dawg big fed isn't hiring, most state govts. are subject to a lulzy level of budget cuts.

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danielhay11
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby danielhay11 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:30 pm

law2015 wrote:If you want biglaw, retake the lsat and reapply next year. Biglaw is highly unlikely at any of the schools you listed above.


Even Dozo's location in NYC won't get you a leg-up in biglaw - remember, it's only the fifth best law school in the market, and most of the T14/30 floods NYC as well.
gpnm wrote:Like I said, biglaw is an interest, but by no means am I wedded to it. I wouldn't be opposed to a gov job for instance.

law2015 wrote:Retake isn't really an option now for a variety of reasons.


I'm with Nelson: I can't think of a good reason not to retake, and I like to think I have less of a retake bias than TLS at large. You have a very strong GPA; with just five more points on the LSAT and a year of WE, Northwestern goes from no shot to a fair shot.

gpnm
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby gpnm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:32 pm

Nelson wrote:No one on TLS is going to endorse those schools at anywhere near sticker. You should go somewhere in your home market and keep your tuition and COL debt as low as possible.


Of course. And that's why I posed the question about negotiating a scholarship from Dozo (for instance). Is that realistic? Rutgers seems like a poor choice given that according to LST, about 50% of salary info is unknown. Since that data is a bit old, I'd imagine that it's even worse now. I'm obviously concerned with keeping total debt down, but balancing that with job prospects is also important.

Nelson wrote:If those reasons are that you don't want to look for a job or that your parents expect you to go to law school next year, you should reconsider.


Far from the truth. I'm still keeping my options open on other fronts (applying to jobs etc.). No expectations from parents, either. They'd be happier if I stayed in NYC. I've already taken the LSAT twice (improved slightly on the second take) but expended an insane amount of time and energy studying. I'm just not willing to put that time and energy into it again. Also, can't really be undecided by the end of the year. Need to either be working or in school.

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Grizz
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:34 pm

Just get a job bro

gpnm
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby gpnm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:36 pm

Grizz wrote:Just get a job bro

Easier said than done. Polsc and Econ major from CUNY isn't very competitive. Been applying for the past month though.

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Grizz
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:40 pm

gpnm wrote:
Grizz wrote:Just get a job bro

Easier said than done. Polsc and Econ major from CUNY isn't very competitive. Been applying for the past month though.

Well Rutgers is probably the least financially ruinous option. But I'd still do job if possible.

ran12
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby ran12 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:48 pm

Even if you can't find a job soon, it's better to wait. The debt from these schools can't be justified. Cardozo only does well b/c there's a bunch of Jews with connections (not to be anti-Semetic or anything like that). W&L is great but the scholly is too low and DC is a tough market to break into for biglaw and govt. You'll prob hate Buffalo b/c upstate NY isn't that great for most of the year and Rutgers isn't worth it.

You don't want to waste your GPA. Work a couple of years and get your score up 10 pts which will make a tremendous difference. Since you have an econ degree, if you can find a finance job, it would help you a lot when OCI comes around. People might say WE doesn't matter that much but having a business background def helps.

MrAnon
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:49 pm

Its nice that you are not wedded to biglaw and could settle for gov, but the most likely outcome from all of these schools is small firm work, answering the court calendar. Do you understand what that kind of career entails?

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YourCaptain
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby YourCaptain » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:04 pm

gpnm wrote:
Grizz wrote:Just get a job bro

Easier said than done. Polsc and Econ major from CUNY isn't very competitive. Been applying for the past month though.


you think getting a degree from any of the above schools will make you more competitive for any job? not a chance
Last edited by YourCaptain on Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paul Campos
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby Paul Campos » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:17 pm

Just wanted to say I'm becoming increasingly impressed by the quality of advice people are getting in these kinds of threads, especially compared to what people were posting even a year ago.

MrAnon
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:21 pm

gpnm wrote:
Grizz wrote:Just get a job bro

Easier said than done. Polsc and Econ major from CUNY isn't very competitive. Been applying for the past month though.


You have identified your problem, yet you are now planning to get even more buried in the same problem by pursuing another degree that employers don't really care about. You want to stand out? A law degree from one of these schools is not the answer.

gpnm
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby gpnm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:27 pm

YourCaptain wrote:
gpnm wrote:
Grizz wrote:Just get a job bro

Easier said than done. Polsc and Econ major from CUNY isn't very competitive. Been applying for the past month though.


you think getting a job from any of the above schools will make you more competitive for any job? not a chance


You definitely have a point. A J.D. is more narrow in general though. Since biglaw is pretty much out of the question, I guess I should ask - does midlaw even exist? Chances from these schools? What about corporate positions? I've heard different opinions on this.

Thank you all for the advice.

RodneyBoonfield
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby RodneyBoonfield » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:35 pm

retake

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YourCaptain
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby YourCaptain » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:37 pm

gpnm wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:
gpnm wrote:
Grizz wrote:Just get a job bro

Easier said than done. Polsc and Econ major from CUNY isn't very competitive. Been applying for the past month though.


you think getting a job from any of the above schools will make you more competitive for any job? not a chance


You definitely have a point. A J.D. is more narrow in general though. Since biglaw is pretty much out of the question, I guess I should ask - does midlaw even exist? Chances from these schools? What about corporate positions? I've heard different opinions on this.

Thank you all for the advice.

inhouse doesnt like to hire straight out.

MrAnon
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:16 pm

These schools are simply not impressive to employers. They don't offer anything special.

gpnm
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby gpnm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:30 pm

MrAnon wrote:These schools are simply not impressive to employers. They don't offer anything special.


So what are the majority of grads out of W&L for instance, doing?

According to --LinkRemoved-- salary range isn't bad; neither is amount employed after graduation (especially given that W&L seems to report better than similar schools).

MrAnon
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby MrAnon » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:39 pm

gpnm wrote:
MrAnon wrote:These schools are simply not impressive to employers. They don't offer anything special.


So what are the majority of grads out of W&L for instance, doing?

According to --LinkRemoved-- salary range isn't bad; neither is amount employed after graduation (especially given that W&L seems to report better than similar schools).


You are looking at selected salary information. A full one-third of the class isn't reported. I would assume they did not find jobs, or they are working for free. Its easy to make the salary numbers look nice when only selected groups are included in salary reporting.

gpnm
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby gpnm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:52 pm

MrAnon wrote:
gpnm wrote:
MrAnon wrote:These schools are simply not impressive to employers. They don't offer anything special.


So what are the majority of grads out of W&L for instance, doing?

According to --LinkRemoved-- salary range isn't bad; neither is amount employed after graduation (especially given that W&L seems to report better than similar schools).


You are looking at selected salary information. A full one-third of the class isn't reported. I would assume they did not find jobs, or they are working for free. Its easy to make the salary numbers look nice when only selected groups are included in salary reporting.


Out of the 68.9% in the private sector, 85% are reporting their salaries. 119/138 grads (86.2%) are employed in total. 12.3% are unemployed or pursuing grad degree. Those aren't terrible numbers.

Looking at the most recent stats for 2010 class: http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Admission ... 0Month.pdf

About half are making 70k or less, but that includes a large number of clerkships as well. Much better reporting for class of 2010 also.

EDIT: NOT trying to be combative FYI. I'm very grateful for all the advice, but it can't simply be as black and white as "T14 or bust".

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Nelson
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby Nelson » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:17 pm

gpnm wrote:Looking at the most recent stats for 2010 class: http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Admission ... 0Month.pdf

So on those numbers, almost half the class is employed by W&L at graduation (51/115 are post-grad fellows). 14 people report making 6 figure salaries 9 months out. Those numbers look like a pretty bad deal at sticker to me. Given that you're paying 2/3 tuition and COL, you don't just need a job, you need one that can service a 1000+/month loan payment.

If you are bound and determined to go this year, go to Rutgers and keep your debt around 50k or less. That would keep your monthly payment at a more doable $600/month.

gpnm
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Re: W&L vs Buffalo vs Rutgers vs Dozo vs others?

Postby gpnm » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:27 pm

Nelson wrote:
gpnm wrote:Looking at the most recent stats for 2010 class: http://law.wlu.edu/deptimages/Admission ... 0Month.pdf

So on those numbers, almost half the class is employed by W&L at graduation (51/115 are post-grad fellows). 14 people report making 6 figure salaries 9 months out. Those numbers look like a pretty bad deal at sticker to me. Given that you're paying 2/3 tuition and COL, you don't just need a job, you need one that can service a 1000+/month loan payment.


Sure, but 98 are employed 9 months out. 23 are making 90k+ which is roughly 20% of the 111 that are employed. Also, out of the grads employed at law firms, 41% are at firms with 100+ employees. Granted, 36.1% are at small firms. I did some loan calculations using a loan calculator posted on TLS, and I should be graduating with a 140k debt burden give or take assuming a 7-ish percent interest rate on loans.

It's a risk, no doubt. But with NYC-level COL, taking a 40k job out of undergrad is also a risk.

On another note, any chance I could leverage the scholarship from W&L with Dozo or Rutgers?




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