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BruceWayne
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:46 pm

Flappy Scribbleneck wrote:If Silenttimer is not from UVA, and is working is Richmond Biglaw, and he graduated in one of the worst legal hiring years in recent history, then that is evidence against your original comment. Unless you consider top third "sky high"?
FWIW, I am not sure either of you are totally correct. I am trying to get closer to the truth because I am interested in W&M, W&L


Let me give you a reality check. Having to be top 30 percent of your class to land a firm job is, for all intents and purposes, "sky high" grades. Beating out 70 percent of the people in your class, who have a similar intellectual aptitude as you do, is absurd. A lot of people will tell you it's not, but it is. You do not want to attend a school where you need to be top 1/3 to land biglaw if biglaw is the only goal that you are satisfied with. Now if you are open to other areas that's a different story. But if you aren't you're making a terrible decision going to a school where you need to beat out 70 percent of your classmates to have a shot at biglaw.

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Flappy Scribbleneck
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby Flappy Scribbleneck » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:41 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Flappy Scribbleneck wrote:If Silenttimer is not from UVA, and is working is Richmond Biglaw, and he graduated in one of the worst legal hiring years in recent history, then that is evidence against your original comment. Unless you consider top third "sky high"?
FWIW, I am not sure either of you are totally correct. I am trying to get closer to the truth because I am interested in W&M, W&L


Let me give you a reality check. Having to be top 30 percent of your class to land a firm job is, for all intents and purposes, "sky high" grades. Beating out 70 percent of the people in your class, who have a similar intellectual aptitude as you do, is absurd. A lot of people will tell you it's not, but it is. You do not want to attend a school where you need to be top 1/3 to land biglaw if biglaw is the only goal that you are satisfied with. Now if you are open to other areas that's a different story. But if you aren't you're making a terrible decision going to a school where you need to beat out 70 percent of your classmates to have a shot at biglaw.


I am going to apologize in advance for the tl;dr
Another great feature of TLS, everyone assumes that every poster needs advice and that everyone but them is a total dumbass.
YourCaptain - W&M and W&L appear to be very similar in every way. Why do you feel that W&M is so much better than W&L that you would accept sticker at W&M over, say, 75% scholarship at W&L
BruceWayne - I get it, you used hyperbole when you said "skyhigh". I appreciate you coming down from Mount Olympus to talk to those of us who may be considering a school below the T14. I also understand that from your lofty position that it may be difficult to understand how the unwashed masses get by on a daily basis. I recognize that I am very lucky to have your attention, so please, let me take advantage of this once in a lifetime opportunity and ask a couple of questions. Is it possible that Richmond Biglaw and UVA have a relationship similar to the one I have heard about Philly Biglaw and Penn: where the biglaw houses actually avoid the local T14 or at least view students from the T14 with suspicion because students from the local T14 view the home market as a backwater and have their sights set on NYC/DC? Is it also possible that maybe, just maybe, once in awhile someone from a T30 with somewhere between just "skyhigh" grades and stratopheric grades outperforms a student from a T14 because of superior networking, hustle, luck, etc? I don't want you to think I believe that I can network, hustle or luck my way to a biglaw job. I am well aware that I am not a unique snowflake. My only goal is to better understand the Virginia Legal Market because I once had a dream to be a lawyer in Virgina. Even if it was just defending drunk driving tickets in Virgina Beach. Please excuse my ignorance in advance. Far be it from me to wonder at the answers to these questions. Maybe you can shine the golden glow of enlightenment on these issues and help a poor looser understand.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:49 pm

Flappy Scribbleneck wrote:BruceWayne - I get it, you used hyperbole when you said "skyhigh". I appreciate you coming down from Mount Olympus to talk to those of us who may be considering a school below the T14. I also understand that from your lofty position that it may be difficult to understand how the unwashed masses get by on a daily basis. I recognize that I am very lucky to have your attention, so please, let me take advantage of this once in a lifetime opportunity and ask a couple of questions. Is it possible that Richmond Biglaw and UVA have a relationship similar to the one I have heard about Philly Biglaw and Penn: where the biglaw houses actually avoid the local T14 or at least view students from the T14 with suspicion because students from the local T14 view the home market as a backwater and have their sights set on NYC/DC? Is it also possible that maybe, just maybe, once in awhile someone from a T30 with somewhere between just "skyhigh" grades and stratopheric grades outperforms a student from a T14 because of superior networking, hustle, luck, etc? I don't want you to think I believe that I can network, hustle or luck my way to a biglaw job. I am well aware that I am not a unique snowflake. My only goal is to better understand the Virginia Legal Market because I once had a dream to be a lawyer in Virgina. Even if it was just defending drunk driving tickets in Virgina Beach. Please excuse my ignorance in advance. Far be it from me to wonder at the answers to these questions. Maybe you can shine the golden glow of enlightenment on these issues and help a poor looser understand.


You're missing the point because you are very angry at the idea that it's not easy to get a biglaw job right now; I understand that everyone is. You also believe, because you read this website, that anyone "worth their salt" or "smart" can achieve top 30 percent. That it's not big deal. That is clouding your judgment, and that tends to happen to a lot of people when they realize just how bad the economy is. But if you read my post, one of the things that I said is that what I was saying about grades applied to ALL schools in Virginia---including UVA. Just that at UVA they aren't quite as bad. I quickly pointed out that it is hard to get a firm job in Richmond even from UVA--hell I told you that many people were rejected at the preselect stage (including myself). Do you realize what that means? It means that they were rejected based on grades and almost nothing else. They were not even given a chance interview well etc.

What's worse about your response is that I specified that the grades comment applied to big firm jobs only. Of course you don't need sky high grades from a school like Washington and Lee or William and Mary to get a good legal job in Richmond. That's absurd. But because you are irritated at the idea that it's hard to get a big firm job in Richmond you got agitated and started bursting out with hyperbole about how I'm saying "no one" from "lowly Washington and Lee who isn't top 1/3" can get a legal job. I'm sorry you don't like to hear about what's going on out there in the hiring world but that's just the way it is. I do see now why a lot of people don't like 0L's posting employment comments. Many of you are, understandably, ignorant of the hiring setup right now, but when you hear the truth you start backlashing when it turns out that the picture isn't rosy.


And FYI no Richmond firms do not view UVA grads with suspicion for wanting to work in Richmond. Firms are aware that the economy is bad, and that MANY UVA grads would jump at the opportunity to work for six figures in a low cost of living city like Richmond. They have their pick of students in this economy. Sorry but things are bad.

MrAnon
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby MrAnon » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:56 pm

Look at Hunton Williams website. they have a large Richmond office and they don't hire that much from W&L period. they have one of the largest biglaw presences in town

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YourCaptain
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby YourCaptain » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:59 pm

Flappy Scribbleneck wrote:YourCaptain - W&M and W&L appear to be very similar in every way. Why do you feel that W&M is so much better than W&L that you would accept sticker at W&M over, say, 75% scholarship at W&L because w&m is public (so tuition might be cheaper) and historically places much better than w&l. w&l got murdered this oci season, where schools like Fordham, w&m, ND, BC, and BU arent exactly back at 2007 but better than c/o 2012. either way though, youre going to need solid ties. if you think law school is enough, hope youre top 15% or get out

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Flappy Scribbleneck
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby Flappy Scribbleneck » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:41 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Flappy Scribbleneck wrote:BruceWayne - I get it, you used hyperbole when you said "skyhigh". I appreciate you coming down from Mount Olympus to talk to those of us who may be considering a school below the T14. I also understand that from your lofty position that it may be difficult to understand how the unwashed masses get by on a daily basis. I recognize that I am very lucky to have your attention, so please, let me take advantage of this once in a lifetime opportunity and ask a couple of questions. Is it possible that Richmond Biglaw and UVA have a relationship similar to the one I have heard about Philly Biglaw and Penn: where the biglaw houses actually avoid the local T14 or at least view students from the T14 with suspicion because students from the local T14 view the home market as a backwater and have their sights set on NYC/DC? Is it also possible that maybe, just maybe, once in awhile someone from a T30 with somewhere between just "skyhigh" grades and stratopheric grades outperforms a student from a T14 because of superior networking, hustle, luck, etc? I don't want you to think I believe that I can network, hustle or luck my way to a biglaw job. I am well aware that I am not a unique snowflake. My only goal is to better understand the Virginia Legal Market because I once had a dream to be a lawyer in Virgina. Even if it was just defending drunk driving tickets in Virgina Beach. Please excuse my ignorance in advance. Far be it from me to wonder at the answers to these questions. Maybe you can shine the golden glow of enlightenment on these issues and help a poor looser understand.


You're missing the point because you are very angry at the idea that it's not easy to get a biglaw job right now; I understand that everyone is. You also believe, because you read this website, that anyone "worth their salt" or "smart" can achieve top 30 percent. That it's not big deal. That is clouding your judgment, and that tends to happen to a lot of people when they realize just how bad the economy is. But if you read my post, one of the things that I said is that what I was saying about grades applied to ALL schools in Virginia---including UVA. Just that at UVA they aren't quite as bad. I quickly pointed out that it is hard to get a firm job in Richmond even from UVA--hell I told you that many people were rejected at the preselect stage (including myself). Do you realize what that means? It means that they were rejected based on grades and almost nothing else. They were not even given a chance interview well etc.

What's worse about your response is that I specified that the grades comment applied to big firm jobs only. Of course you don't need sky high grades from a school like Washington and Lee or William and Mary to get a good legal job in Richmond. That's absurd. But because you are irritated at the idea that it's hard to get a big firm job in Richmond you got agitated and started bursting out with hyperbole about how I'm saying "no one" from "lowly Washington and Lee who isn't top 1/3" can get a legal job. I'm sorry you don't like to hear about what's going on out there in the hiring world but that's just the way it is. I do see now why a lot of people don't like 0L's posting employment comments. Many of you are, understandably, ignorant of the hiring setup right now, but when you hear the truth you start backlashing when it turns out that the picture isn't rosy.


And FYI no Richmond firms do not view UVA grades with suspicion for wanting to work in Richmond. Firms are aware that the economy is bad, and that MANY UVA grads would jump at the opportunity to work for six figures in a low cost of living city like Richmond. They have their pick of students in this economy. Sorry but things are bad.


You detected my frustration? What an empathetic human. Are trying to network with me? I will be your friend. Here is what I am really frustrated about, friend: TLS is a great resource, but the problem is all of the information is covered by tons and tons of crap. People hiding behind anonymous identities spewing gallons of garbage all over the internet. However, what you stated I agree with: Thank You, BruceWayne, for letting us all know the economy is bad. And then you had the kindness to add in this gem: it is hard to get a biglaw job. What a revelation. It was news to me and now I have been set straight.
You were so nice to answer my first two questions. I know I am pushing it, but would you mind answering another question? Virginia seems impossibly saturated with laws schools and the largest town is only 500,000 people. It is a well know TLS fact that DC is virtually off limits to anything below T14 (some would even argue that GTown is screwed in its home market). And good Lord, if W&L has no chance in Richmond, VA then what is the end game? Does anyone from the VA schools have success attacking into Baltimore, Pennsylvania, WV, OH, Kentucky, Tennessee or the Carolinas?

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Grizz
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby Grizz » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:44 am

Flappy Scribbleneck wrote:And good Lord, if W&L has no chance in Richmond, VA then what is the end game? Does anyone from the VA schools have success attacking into Baltimore, Pennsylvania, WV, OH, Kentucky, Tennessee or the Carolinas?

There are 45,000 law grads every year, and about 25,000 entry level legal jobs. Of these, many are not full time, not permanent, and have minimal to no possibility of advancement.

HTH

MrAnon
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:44 am

Does anyone from the VA schools have success attacking into Baltimore, Pennsylvania, WV, OH, Kentucky, Tennessee or the Carolinas?


The picture for W&L grads gets even grimmer when you step outside the Commonwealth.

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Flappy Scribbleneck
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby Flappy Scribbleneck » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:01 am

YourCaptain wrote:because w&m is public (so tuition might be cheaper)


That's why I chose the 75% scholarship example, at 50% W&L is same price as sticker at W&M.

YourCaptain wrote:w&l got murdered this oci season, where schools like Fordham, w&m, ND, BC, and BU arent exactly back at 2007 but better than c/o 2012.


Where can I find stats about the 2012 OCI season?
LST shows a rosy-er picture for W&L vs W&M

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Flappy Scribbleneck
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby Flappy Scribbleneck » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:15 am

Grizz wrote:There are 45,000 law grads every year, and about 25,000 entry level legal jobs. Of these, many are not full time, not permanent, and have minimal to no possibility of advancement.


YourCaptain wrote:because w&m is public (so tuition might be cheaper) and historically places much better than w&l. w&l got murdered this oci season, where schools like Fordham, w&m, ND, BC, and BU arent exactly back at 2007 but better than c/o 2012. either way though, youre going to need solid ties. if you think law school is enough, hope youre top 15% or get out[/b]


MrAnon wrote:The picture for W&L grads gets even grimmer when you step outside the Commonwealth.


As long as I have all you guys together - would anyone care to weigh in on Wake, UIUC and SMU?

MrAnon
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Re: Virginia legal market

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:47 am

As long as I have all you guys together - would anyone care to weigh in on Wake, UIUC and SMU?


You need to figure out where you want to practice before you go off and apply to these schools. These are not destination schools. Their marketing materials might make you think they are national, that they have students from everywhere, and that their kids get jobs anywhere. There is some kernel of truth to all that, but its just a kernel.

If you want to work in the VA/NC area then go to W&L, W&M, Wake. Upper Midwest? UIUC. Texas? Yea you guessed it.

The job prospects from all these schools are mostly unclear after the top dozen or so students. You don't want to be stuck with a degree from them that does best in an area of country you are unfamiliar with. It would make a miserable job search even more miserable and give you no edges. Ignore that they are T1s. That is just a marketing gimmick. There is nothing about them that is better than a T80 school.

If say, you live in Georgia right now, and you unsure about all these schools or your future, then you should be applying to UGA and Emory. Only reason to leave GA for these other schools would be if they gave you full unconditional scholarship.




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