Opinions about Widener

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23402385985
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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby 23402385985 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:01 pm

What is your GPA? You can get into some of the bottom level tier II schools with a 155. Widener should not be an option for you unless you have a low 2 GPA. You aren't going to get into any great school with that LSAT, but at least something better than Widener.

LiberalLaw
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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:03 pm

justinp wrote:
Philosopher King wrote:I am going to apply to Widener because my LSAT is so bad (155). Is this a good idea. MY dad's friend is a judge in Philadelphia and he went to Widener.


Retake the LSAT. You're not going to get into anywhere worth going with a 155. I guarantee you that you can get a much better score if you put some actual effort into it.

Widener is a ticket to lifelong debt slavery.



False.

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2LT_CPG
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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby 2LT_CPG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:08 pm

155 is a fine score for most Tier 3 regional schools. Is your GPA bad to such an extent that it limits you to schools like Widener? I visited both Widener campuses back in the Fall and wasn't impressed. Waiting a year to retake isnt the worst thing in the world.

Widener loves to use the anecdotal, "So and so is a judge in Philadelphia..." so be wary. They were a good regional school back in the 90s. They've descended into Tier 4 irrelevance since. They're prohibitively expensive for the lackluster education they provide. And when UDel opens its school soon, they'll become even worse because they'll lose the one thing they have going for them: being the only school in Delaware.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:11 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:155 is a fine score for most Tier 3 regional schools. Is your GPA bad to such an extent that it limits you to schools like Widener? I visited both Widener campuses back in the Fall and wasn't impressed. Waiting a year to retake isnt the worst thing in the world.

Widener loves to use the anecdotal, "So and so is a judge in Philadelphia..." so be wary. They were a good regional school back in the 90s. They've descended into Tier 4 irrelevance since. They're prohibitively expensive for the lackluster education they provide. And when UDel opens its school soon, they'll become even worse because they'll lose the one thing they have going for them: being the only school in Delaware.



I believe the UDel is no longer considering a law school.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:12 pm

I will say this though. Widener is well respected in the Wilmington area. Some of the alumni i spoke to said that the corporate law practices prefer Widener graduates.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:13 pm

LiberalLaw wrote:I will say this though. Widener is well respected in the Wilmington area. Some of the alumni i spoke to said that the corporate law practices prefer Widener graduates.

Cool

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby 2LT_CPG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:24 pm

Regardless of whether or not UDel Law happens, be seriously careful about Widener. I thought about it too before I decided to retake. Better things happened.

This is anecdotal too, but every kid I know who went to Widener went there because they did poorly on the LSAT. And they aren't generous with scholarships, so they all go there at sticker, or they go there with a mild scholarship but lose it because of the insane curve the school has.

If you're dead set on going to law school, I won't try to talk you out of it. Go nuts and have fun. But don't commit yourself to objectively the lowest school on the Philadelphia region's totem pole because it's your only option.

I'm also not sure if this is real or not. But if it's real, LSAC doesn't have criminal practices. I'm sorry you scored lower than you expected, but I know a lot of people who can score really well without doing any studying.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby 2LT_CPG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:26 pm

Other big thing about Widener you should know is that 1/3 of the 1L class is dropped before making it to 2L. That's why they admit so many kids with low LSATs and GPAs; so they can take them for a ride and get an easy $30,000.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:27 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:Regardless of whether or not UDel Law happens, be seriously careful about Widener. I thought about it too before I decided to retake. Better things happened.

This is anecdotal too, but every kid I know who went to Widener went there because they did poorly on the LSAT. And they aren't generous with scholarships, so they all go there at sticker, or they go there with a mild scholarship but lose it because of the insane curve the school has.

If you're dead set on going to law school, I won't try to talk you out of it. Go nuts and have fun. But don't commit yourself to objectively the lowest school on the Philadelphia region's totem pole because it's your only option.

I'm also not sure if this is real or not. But if it's real, LSAC doesn't have criminal practices. I'm sorry you scored lower than you expected, but I know a lot of people who can score really well without doing any studying.


The LSAT range is in the mid 150's for Widener. I do know a few students who scored 160 or so and are attending. As to the scholarships, check the LSAC page for the actual % of students earning one.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:30 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:Other big thing about Widener you should know is that 1/3 of the 1L class is dropped before making it to 2L. That's why they admit so many kids with low LSATs and GPAs; so they can take them for a ride and get an easy $30,000.


I actually looked in to that and that is not accurate. I believe LSAC combines both campuses in calculating the attrition rates. The actual rate is lower.

The way it works here is as follows:

If you have below a 2.0 after the first year, then you fail out.

Each substantive course requires that 10% receive a D+ or below.

That taken, and an incoming class of 250 or so, means less than 25.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby 2LT_CPG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:43 pm

25% attrition for 1Ls according to LSAC, so I was off by 8%. I stand corrected. I was going off of what my tour guide told me when I visited the Wilmington campus. I made a note of it. Still, that's high, and you can't be so naive to think they don't let in all the 140-150 LSAT crowd so they can take their money knowing they'll fail at school and be dropped.

Unfortunately for Widener, they're kind of in the Barry-Florida Coastal-University of Phoenix crowd now. Some more anecdotal stuff. My neighbor is a partner at a prestigious big corporate law firm in downtown Philadelphia. I talked to him about schools in the Philadelphia market (I'm not going to stay here). He said his firm hires tons of Penn, Temple, Villanova, Drexel, Penn State Dickinson, and Rutgers Camden grads. In that order of precedence. He said the city is starting to fall in love with Drexel and he said he wouldn't be surprised if they cracked the top 100 this year. I asked about Widener, and he said that school isn't even on his radar because of its reputation. Again, this is a big CORPORATE law firm in Philadelphia with branch offices in Wilmington. Corporate law is supposed to be Widener's niche.

That said, once again, 155 is a slightly above median score that can get you into some good regional schools with a solid GPA. (I know it seems low on TLS, given the number of 170s et al.)

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:44 pm

My dad's friend is an unemployed lawyer and he went to Widener.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:48 pm

LiberalLaw wrote:
2LT_CPG wrote:Other big thing about Widener you should know is that 1/3 of the 1L class is dropped before making it to 2L. That's why they admit so many kids with low LSATs and GPAs; so they can take them for a ride and get an easy $30,000.


I actually looked in to that and that is not accurate. I believe LSAC combines both campuses in calculating the attrition rates. The actual rate is lower.

The way it works here is as follows:

If you have below a 2.0 after the first year, then you fail out.

Each substantive course requires that 10% receive a D+ or below.

That taken, and an incoming class of 250 or so, means less than 25.


You have to understand that for many of those who "fail out" no amount of work can keep them in school. Schools at this level have an unofficial policy to make sure a certain amount of the class do not return thanks to the forced curve.
Last edited by MrAnon on Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:48 pm

MrAnon wrote:My dad's friend is an unemployed lawyer and he went to Widener.


That does not make a trend.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:50 pm

LiberalLaw wrote:
MrAnon wrote:My dad's friend is an unemployed lawyer and he went to Widener.


That does not make a trend.


well the OPs dad has a friend who is a judge. I just wanted to say my dad has a friend who can't find a job.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:51 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:25% attrition for 1Ls according to LSAC, so I was off by 8%. I stand corrected. I was going off of what my tour guide told me when I visited the Wilmington campus. I made a note of it. Still, that's high, and you can't be so naive to think they don't let in all the 140-150 LSAT crowd so they can take their money knowing they'll fail at school and be dropped.

Unfortunately for Widener, they're kind of in the Barry-Florida Coastal-University of Phoenix crowd now. Some more anecdotal stuff. My neighbor is a partner at a prestigious big corporate law firm in downtown Philadelphia. I talked to him about schools in the Philadelphia market (I'm not going to stay here). He said his firm hires tons of Penn, Temple, Villanova, Drexel, Penn State Dickinson, and Rutgers Camden grads. In that order of precedence. He said the city is starting to fall in love with Drexel and he said he wouldn't be surprised if they cracked the top 100 this year. I asked about Widener, and he said that school isn't even on his radar because of its reputation. Again, this is a big CORPORATE law firm in Philadelphia with branch offices in Wilmington. Corporate law is supposed to be Widener's niche.

That said, once again, 155 is a slightly above median score that can get you into some good regional schools with a solid GPA. (I know it seems low on TLS, given the number of 170s et al.)


I do not disagree with your account of the attorney's remarks. It may be so. Admittedly, i am not looking into biglaw or corporate practice so i cannot authoritatively say what the general hiring practices of those firms are.

As for my 1L summer hunt, i have not heard back yet, nor have many of my classmates.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:53 pm

MrAnon wrote:
LiberalLaw wrote:
MrAnon wrote:My dad's friend is an unemployed lawyer and he went to Widener.


That does not make a trend.


well the OPs dad has a friend who is a judge. I just wanted to say my dad has a friend who can't find a job.


It is a tough market. The 2011 class had a 94% rate from the responses, and about 55% or so worked in private practice and the rest elsewhere. If you account for all students, including those who did not respond it may be lower than 80 percent or so.
Last edited by LiberalLaw on Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby LiberalLaw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:55 pm

MrAnon wrote:
LiberalLaw wrote:
2LT_CPG wrote:Other big thing about Widener you should know is that 1/3 of the 1L class is dropped before making it to 2L. That's why they admit so many kids with low LSATs and GPAs; so they can take them for a ride and get an easy $30,000.


I actually looked in to that and that is not accurate. I believe LSAC combines both campuses in calculating the attrition rates. The actual rate is lower.

The way it works here is as follows:

If you have below a 2.0 after the first year, then you fail out.

Each substantive course requires that 10% receive a D+ or below.

That taken, and an incoming class of 250 or so, means less than 25.


You have to understand that for many of those who "fail out" no amount of work can keep them in school. Schools at this level have an unofficial policy to make sure a certain amount of the class do not return thanks to the forced curve.


The primary concern of students here is the curve, i.e., a 2.7 here is the same as a 3.3 at another school, when accounting for the curve. Why this is so, no one knows.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby 2LT_CPG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:01 pm

LiberalLaw wrote:I do not disagree with your account of the attorney's remarks. It may be so. Admittedly, i am not looking into biglaw or corporate practice so i cannot authoritatively say what the general hiring practices of those firms are.

As for my 1L summer hunt, i have not heard back yet, nor have many of my classmates.

Right, and that's fine, neither am I. My point though was that Widener markets itself as a school whose big advantage is being in Delaware and producing corporate lawyers. No idea what the OP wants to do, but knowing a few kids who went to Widener and having visited both campuses, I'd say a good number of the students there (I'm not saying you did) chose to go there using the self-delusion of settling for a T4 with a niche market in corporate law in Delaware because they couldn't get into anywhere else.

Again, Widener in the 70s, 80s and 90s (it was called something else before affiliating with Widener University) was indeed kind of a respected regional school. So I'm sure it has a ton of these stories about successful grads from that era. I'm sure as a result it has a kind of good alumni network. But the Philadelphia market is so saturated with higher-ranked schools, that doesn't really make the difference.

The comparable analogy is going to NYLS in New York.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby ihhwap1 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:52 pm

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Last edited by ihhwap1 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:57 pm

LiberalLaw wrote:
2LT_CPG wrote:Other big thing about Widener you should know is that 1/3 of the 1L class is dropped before making it to 2L. That's why they admit so many kids with low LSATs and GPAs; so they can take them for a ride and get an easy $30,000.


I actually looked in to that and that is not accurate. I believe LSAC combines both campuses in calculating the attrition rates. The actual rate is lower.

The way it works here is as follows:

If you have below a 2.0 after the first year, then you fail out.

Each substantive course requires that 10% receive a D+ or below.

That taken, and an incoming class of 250 or so, means less than 25.

Look at their attrition rate: https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... lData.aspx It's downright embarrassing.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby 2LT_CPG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:06 pm

LiberalLaw wrote:The primary concern of students here is the curve, i.e., a 2.7 here is the same as a 3.3 at another school, when accounting for the curve. Why this is so, no one knows.

Really, no one knows? It's pretty clearly so they can drop as many 1Ls as possible.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:29 pm

I've also heard about Widener dropping the bottom third. Business-wise, I don't get why they would want to do this. If these students are willing to stay, regardless of their shitty grades, why would the administration force money out the door?

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby 2LT_CPG » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:34 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:I've also heard about Widener dropping the bottom third. Business-wise, I don't get why they would want to do this. If these students are willing to stay, regardless of their shitty grades, why would the administration force money out the door?

So they avoid completely sabotaging their own employment rates by graduating unemployable idiots, which invites an even lower ranking and further erosion of their reputation.

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Re: Opinions about Widener

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:38 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:I've also heard about Widener dropping the bottom third. Business-wise, I don't get why they would want to do this. If these students are willing to stay, regardless of their shitty grades, why would the administration force money out the door?

So they avoid completely sabotaging their own employment rates by graduating unemployable idiots, which invites an even lower ranking and further erosion of their reputation.

I considered that, but the fact that people are willing to attend Widener (and schools similar to it) at the present time shows that it might not matter--there just may always be thousands of students willing to attend these schools at sticker or close to it.




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