HLS or SLS?

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handsonthewheel
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby handsonthewheel » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:19 pm

Arro wrote:
handsonthewheel wrote:It's delusional to think that Harvard is that special in comparison to Stanford and Yale.

Compared to Stanford, no it's not delusional at all. HLS alumni are far superior to SLS alumni. Job prospects out of law school are similar, but it's clear that HLS alum occupy a far greater percentage of power positions (SCOTUS, Senator, Governor, CEO, etc.) For people that aspire to those positions, what rational reasons are there for them to choose SLS over HLS? Assuming not Cali.

Also, nice registration just to make that post.

Uh, yeah. Long-time lurker but the Harvard bashing has gotten on my nerve lately.


Bashing? Maybe I skimmed too much, but the closest to that I read were comments saying that it isn't vastly superior to Yale or Stanford. I dunno, to me, that doesn't seem to be entirely derogatory.

Arro
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Arro » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:27 pm

handsonthewheel wrote:Bashing? Maybe I skimmed too much, but the closest to that I read were comments saying that it isn't vastly superior to Yale or Stanford. I dunno, to me, that doesn't seem to be entirely derogatory.

It wasn't this thread really at all, it was the couple of UChi vs HLS threads the past week. I dunno why I decided to post in this thread. UChi kids being more intellectually rigorous than Harvard kids despite their inferior GPA and LSAT scores has been the go-to troll tactic lately.

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Emma.
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Emma. » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:34 pm

Arro wrote:
handsonthewheel wrote:Bashing? Maybe I skimmed too much, but the closest to that I read were comments saying that it isn't vastly superior to Yale or Stanford. I dunno, to me, that doesn't seem to be entirely derogatory.

It wasn't this thread really at all, it was the couple of UChi vs HLS threads the past week. I dunno why I decided to post in this thread. UChi kids being more intellectually rigorous than Harvard kids despite their inferior GPA and LSAT scores has been the go-to troll tactic lately.


C'mon now.

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Flash
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Flash » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:35 pm

Arro wrote:despite their inferior GPA and LSAT scores

Image

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Shooter
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Shooter » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:36 pm

Arro wrote:
handsonthewheel wrote:Bashing? Maybe I skimmed too much, but the closest to that I read were comments saying that it isn't vastly superior to Yale or Stanford. I dunno, to me, that doesn't seem to be entirely derogatory.

It wasn't this thread really at all, it was the couple of UChi vs HLS threads the past week. I dunno why I decided to post in this thread. UChi kids being more intellectually rigorous than Harvard kids despite their inferior GPA and LSAT scores has been the go-to troll tactic lately.


It bothered you so much that you had to create a profile to complain about it?

If your degree is so vastly superior to everyone else's, what are you doing trolling this forum? Don't you have an election coming up? Or a board meeting?

062914123
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby 062914123 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:37 pm

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Last edited by 062914123 on Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

handsonthewheel
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby handsonthewheel » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:39 pm

Arro wrote:
handsonthewheel wrote:Bashing? Maybe I skimmed too much, but the closest to that I read were comments saying that it isn't vastly superior to Yale or Stanford. I dunno, to me, that doesn't seem to be entirely derogatory.

It wasn't this thread really at all, it was the couple of UChi vs HLS threads the past week. I dunno why I decided to post in this thread. UChi kids being more intellectually rigorous than Harvard kids despite their inferior GPA and LSAT scores has been the go-to troll tactic lately.


Who cares? Even if they are saying that, it's the University of Chicago...it is still a fairly selective and academically rigorous school. Saying "inferior GPA and LSAT scores" seems to miss the mark. Maybe I'm biased in regard to those metrics being that I transferred (barely got into a T1 as an initial applicant and now at a T14 and finding myself more than intellectually capable), but pretending like Harvard kids are necessarily smarter in some quantifiable way stinks of self-importance under the stamp of a crimson H.

I never submitted an app to Harvard, but rest assured that I'd have attended over anywhere but Yale, so this isn't some anti-Harvard rant or inferiority complex. I do regret not putting in a little more effort during 1L to have made an application worthwhile. In the end I have enormous respect for the people that have put in the time and effort, or who simply have the brute-force intellect, to make it in.

But, taking a rational look at things, believing that HLS students are superior to Yale or Stanford is flatly biased and misguided. People at the top schools are smart. Simple as that.

handsonthewheel
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby handsonthewheel » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:40 pm

Emma. wrote:
Arro wrote:
handsonthewheel wrote:Bashing? Maybe I skimmed too much, but the closest to that I read were comments saying that it isn't vastly superior to Yale or Stanford. I dunno, to me, that doesn't seem to be entirely derogatory.

It wasn't this thread really at all, it was the couple of UChi vs HLS threads the past week. I dunno why I decided to post in this thread. UChi kids being more intellectually rigorous than Harvard kids despite their inferior GPA and LSAT scores has been the go-to troll tactic lately.


C'mon now.


My exact thought.

Arro
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Arro » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:48 pm

eh, 'twas just a joke. Whoever made that HYS+Chi thread annoyed me.

Looking back at it, it seems to be the work of TaepeiMort. My b.

anstone1988
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby anstone1988 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:11 pm

Emma. wrote:
Arro wrote:
handsonthewheel wrote:It's delusional to think that Harvard is that special in comparison to Stanford and Yale.

Compared to Stanford, no it's not delusional at all. HLS alumni are far superior to SLS alumni. Job prospects out of law school are similar, but it's clear that HLS alum occupy a far greater percentage of power positions (SCOTUS, Senator, Governor, CEO, etc.) For people that aspire to those positions, what rational reasons are there for them to choose SLS over HLS? Assuming not Cali.


HLS' class is almost 3 times the size of SLS or UChi. Once you adjust for that I don't think you'll see quite the same huge advantage for HLS alumni.

For instance, anstone1988 suggests that HLS name would be important in making partner (which I suspect is just plain wrong), but check out these numbers (remembering that UChi's class size is ~190 compared with HLS's ~550):

http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/w ... law-school

No one is arguing (at least I hope no one is arguing) that HLS isn't a great school. If when I was choosing schools I'd had the option of choosing between HLS and UChi with equal aid $$ l I would have likely chosen to go there. But I don't think HLS is such a huge leap above UChi that it always makes sense to choose HLS over UChi.


Please don't put words in my mouth. I was obviously referring to partner as business partner/founder/not law firm partner. Who would be trying to make partner at an established law firm 20 years out? Also, my whole argument is that HYS each have their own sets of advantages and disadvantages. Stanford is a great school, and some people should choose it over Harvard and Yale, but that doesn't mean that going to Harvard isn't the right choice for other people.

handsonthewheel
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby handsonthewheel » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:35 pm

Arro wrote:eh, 'twas just a joke. Whoever made that HYS+Chi thread annoyed me.


I guess we just don't get Cambridge humor.

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soj
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby soj » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:41 pm

I could see the decision going either way, but at OCI, I'd be more comfortable with straight Ps from SLS than with straight Ps from HLS.

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Stig
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Stig » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:52 am

Image


but seriously though...
Arro wrote:HLS alumni are far superior to SLS alumni.

Image
Last edited by Stig on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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tikiman6
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby tikiman6 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:18 am

First off, I want to say not all Harvard kids are douchey as doucherino up in the thread is.

I can't make any comparison on competitiveness - this can be a different experience for kids at the same school, and I have no basis for comparison. There is no overt competition here, but some work harder than others and try to inform the class about it. There are douches. See, e.g., above.

HLS alumni network might be a little better - it is bigger, so there is always somebody in your field that is willing to help you out. Somebody mentioned something about quality of alumni. This probably goes back to Harvard's longer history in the legal community, with the alumni now being graduates of an earlier time where Harvard was (disputably) the biggest name in legal education. Today things are different; there is much more parity at the top.

As far as living goes: Palo Alto has Cambridge beat. IMO, SF has Boston beat. Stanford campus also wins. There are no happy hours here. I rest my case.

Finally, for employment, I think SLS grads do fine out East, and it is much harder for HLS grads to break into the CA market. That said, HLS is closer (geographically) to NY, and there are some benefits to this in terms of recruiting and on-campus events. I have yet to do EIP, so I can't tell you with too much confidence about employment, but if you want private practice, you can be in the bottom half (maybe third?) and still probably get the market salary (160). With any luck, prospects improve as the economy picks up.

I did not get into Stanford, I more than likely would have went there.

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Stig
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Stig » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:26 pm

tikiman6 wrote:First off, I want to say not all Harvard kids are douchey as doucherino up in the thread is.

I can't make any comparison on competitiveness - this can be a different experience for kids at the same school, and I have no basis for comparison. There is no overt competition here, but some work harder than others and try to inform the class about it. There are douches. See, e.g., above.

HLS alumni network might be a little better - it is bigger, so there is always somebody in your field that is willing to help you out. Somebody mentioned something about quality of alumni. This probably goes back to Harvard's longer history in the legal community, with the alumni now being graduates of an earlier time where Harvard was (disputably) the biggest name in legal education. Today things are different; there is much more parity at the top.

As far as living goes: Palo Alto has Cambridge beat. IMO, SF has Boston beat. Stanford campus also wins. There are no happy hours here. I rest my case.

Finally, for employment, I think SLS grads do fine out East, and it is much harder for HLS grads to break into the CA market. That said, HLS is closer (geographically) to NY, and there are some benefits to this in terms of recruiting and on-campus events. I have yet to do EIP, so I can't tell you with too much confidence about employment, but if you want private practice, you can be in the bottom half (maybe third?) and still probably get the market salary (160). With any luck, prospects improve as the economy picks up.

I did not get into Stanford, I more than likely would have went there.


Fair points. I will say though that SF is probably harder to access at night without a car than Boston, and that getting off campus into Palo Alto requires a car or a taxi ride. So in fairness, the logistics can be a pain sometimes.

In terms of going east, from what 2Ls and the few 1Ls going back there say, it hasn't been too tough. A ton of people I know are going to DC for the summer (both 1Ls and 2Ls). One of my friends is working at Wachtell as a 1L, and he said that he thinks he was the only one from SLS to even apply. I think it is fair to say that supply of SLS students heading to NYC is pretty small. DC is tougher I imagine for firm jobs.

Geneva
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Geneva » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:58 am

TAG. In case I have this decision to make.

abl
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby abl » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:51 pm

HLS was relatively better and SLS was relatively worse 30+ years ago (when most of the current big name alums came through). It should be not at all surprising that the more grizzled alumni members of HLS seem to stand out more than aged SLS alums (although adjusted for size, the distinction mostly disappears). Your future as a Senator or Businessman in thirty years, however, won't be shaped primarily by this old guard, but rather by our generation, and people within a decade or so of our age. Looking to that younger community, HLS no longer shines--in fact, the rise of Silicone Valley probably gives SLS somewhat of an advantage in the non-law careers area (although that's probably tilted more in the VC direction).

Twit
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Twit » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:17 pm

MaxWeber wrote:faced similar choice (throw in Y) and chose SLS w/ similar long-term interests in policy/politics as OP.

to me, the biggest draw with harvard was the name, history, and everything that came with it---supreme court justices hear 2L moot court arguments, senators have their names on the wall, the president shows up for alumni weekend, etc.

but then i realized that harvard, as a school, wasn't actually that awesome. it felt stale and out of touch with the future of the profession, and only nominally engaged in producing leaders and social innovators. it's rested on its laurels and has been able to stay awesome by plucking top faculty (who do their grunt work elsewhere) and taking a large enough class to guarantee that SOMEONE (maybe it's a 3rd gen legacy) every now and then would end up as an appellate judge or congressman.

stanford, by contrast, seemed to be where i'd develop into someone who's actually influential. i can already tell you that the 1L program at SLS is much harder than anywhere else in the country, but also more empowering. we have a 10 month 1L year and a full-term simulation course in federal pretrial litigation, including strategy, negotiation, oral argument, etc. the school actually has to petition the ABA each year for an exception to give 1L's 18 credit hours in the fall quarter (13 hours is the ordinary maximum i believe). whether or not you want to be a litigator, that's the nuts/bolts of lawyering, and you'll know it. all that stuff in the NYT about how law schools don't teach you anything? not true here. beginning 2L, you'll get to take courses that are interdisciplinary, collaborative, and which directly involve practice. if you are more academically inclined and interested in something like law and democracy, professors are eager to advise you in a directed research course, and you can start talking legal theory electives as early as your 1L spring. if you know or discover an area of law/policy you want to explore more thoroughly, join one of the clinics. and of course, you have the entire university's course offerings to explore as well. check them out.

obviously biased, but i think SLS is the future of legal education and the best law school in the country for leaders. it combined the best of both H and Y without the drawbacks of either. i think the people here seem more relaxed because we're more self-confident and comfortable with who we are and what we want to do. in some ways you have to be pretty confident to turn down harvard or yale, and being grounded like that keeps things in perspective---most of us know that we'll get a mix of Hs and Ps no matter what, and that we'll get one of the jobs we want. we still study HARD b/c the course load is so damn rigorous, but there's only a minority of people who gun for straight H's. they seem to be the fearful, study-all-night and ask obnoxious detail-oriented questions type who feel that grades are all they have to offer, but thats their prerogative and they'll be successful attorneys.

you have to live with your choice, not me. not everyone can say no to Harvard. you have to figure out if you're one of them.

ps a reassuring line about your decision from dean kramer last year when i asked him at admit weekend about choosing b/w S/Y/H: "oh god, at least you'll choose harvard if you don't come here right? i mean, they actually try to train lawyers there, it's a serious place. yale? you're not gonna learn how to do anything there, i'd want my money back."


THIS.

Also, what is this UChi v. Harvard crap? Did they close Columbia and forget to tell the rest of us???

AND: T4? Who says T4.

OP, you know the East Coast. If you want something different, go to SLS. We'll be classmates and it'll be cool. If you want more East Coast...go to Harvard.

concurrent fork
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby concurrent fork » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:32 pm

Flash wrote:
Emma. wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:In this thread:

Taipei continues to put his/her school (Chicago) in the same group as HYS and even suggest it is better than H.

He trolls T5 and Chicago hard.


TBF, I'm hardly a UChi troll and I can totally see good reasons for choosing Chi over HLS.

Stanford, OTOH...

Go to SLS, OP.

QFFuckingT

You can have reasons to choose Chicago over HLS. There is no reason not to go to SLS, unless you're going to YLS.

Assuming same cost, can you list the reasons to choose Chi over HLS? I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to what they are.

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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:34 pm

Twit wrote:Also, what is this UChi v. Harvard crap? Did they close Columbia and forget to tell the rest of us???


Chicago is increasingly becoming a therapeutic hospice for Harvard rejects. People usually accept their Yale and Stanford rejections with grace, the classes are small and people are willing to accept that softs play a significant role. Since Harvard is larger and more relatively numbers-based, there's always the thought that one could have gotten in if one had studied harder, showed up to that one class, written a better personal essay etc.

Also, I think most Uchi trolls forget they are actually behind Columbia.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:35 pm

concurrent fork wrote:Assuming same cost, can you list the reasons to choose Chi over HLS? I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to what they are.


1. Rigor
2. Undiluted faculty

AtticusJimbo
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby AtticusJimbo » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:45 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
Twit wrote:Also, what is this UChi v. Harvard crap? Did they close Columbia and forget to tell the rest of us???


Chicago is increasingly becoming a therapeutic hospice for Harvard rejects. People usually accept their Yale and Stanford rejections with grace, the classes are small and people are willing to accept that softs play a significant role. Since Harvard is larger and more relatively numbers-based, there's always the thought that one could have gotten in if one had studied harder, showed up to that one class, written a better personal essay etc.

Also, I think most Uchi trolls forget they are actually behind Columbia.


On that note, then, isn't Harvard something of a hospice for Yale rejects? To my understanding, the selectivity gap between Yale and Harvard is greater than that between Harvard and Chicago. Congratulations on your admission to HLS, but I hope you're prepared to be going to a school mostly composed of people who would've rather gone somewhere else. And that'll be the case no matter where you go, unless it's Yale. Certainly it'll be the case at NYU, where I'm headed, and certainly I'd have rather gone to Yale, but I feel reasonably well adjusted to that reality. But you seem a bit more agitated.

Nobody is saying UChi=H, except for the most egregious Chi trolls. And honestly, your feeling the need to take things out on the next man down on the totem pole makes it seem to me that maybe you haven't quite gotten over that Yale rejection letter.

In short, tits or GTFO. You have the rest of your life to look down your nose from your Harvard pedestal, so pace yourself.

concurrent fork
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby concurrent fork » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:07 pm

AtticusJimbo wrote:To my understanding, the selectivity gap between Yale and Harvard is greater than that between Harvard and Chicago.

How do you figure? The 25/75 ranges of the respective schools seem to undermine this proposition.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:26 pm

AtticusJimbo wrote: On that note, then, isn't Harvard something of a hospice for Yale rejects? To my understanding, the selectivity gap between Yale and Harvard is greater than that between Harvard and Chicago. Congratulations on your admission to HLS, but I hope you're prepared to be going to a school mostly composed of people who would've rather gone somewhere else. And that'll be the case no matter where you go, unless it's Yale. Certainly it'll be the case at NYU, where I'm headed, and certainly I'd have rather gone to Yale, but I feel reasonably well adjusted to that reality.


I'm sorry I hurt your feelings but I'm not one of those go-where-you'll-be-happy-let's-all-hug-and-sing-kumbaya types. I prefer cool heads over warm hearts. Discounting the fact that your assessment is inaccurate, hypothetically, it wouldn't bother me if my classmates would rather be somewhere else. People make the H v Y v S, H v Y, H v S, S v Y decision(s) all the time and people choose H,Y or S for a variety of reasons. Others go wherever they get in, some like it, some don't. In fact, Stanford has the lowest yield rate amongst the three but nobody professing sanity (or the semblance thereof) would conclude extrapolatory superiority based on shit that doesn't matter, except on TLS.

The whole irony is the fact that the preponderant sum of all the puppy-saving, PI-obsessed, competition-free, Médecins Sans Frontières-wannabe, happy-pilled masses are going to end up in BigLaw anyways.

Re: Selectivity. Y and H (and to a certain extent S) choose from the same pool. Yes, Yale is going to be more selective, their class is less than half the size of Harvard's class. Chicago, with its tiny class, still has to offer Ruby's to poach from the Holy Trinity. I understand they couldn't get enough people to take the Ruby's last year. Leiter's selective statistics bullshit concerning clerkship and academia has been discounted on this site and others. I can't find the link.

In a nutshell, HYS are interchangeable. People have reasons for choosing one over the other(s). It's a personal choice. HYSUchi isn't a thing, in fact, it's blasphemous. Chicago is however, a great, admirable institution. The silly trolling is unnecessary and counter-productive.

AtticusJimbo
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Re: HLS or SLS?

Postby AtticusJimbo » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:34 am

concurrent fork wrote:
AtticusJimbo wrote:To my understanding, the selectivity gap between Yale and Harvard is greater than that between Harvard and Chicago.

How do you figure? The 25/75 ranges of the respective schools seem to undermine this proposition.

25/75 ranges are quite far from telling the whole story.

Look here at Chicago's 25/75s vs. Stanford's 25/75s. Chicago's are actually ever-so-slightly stronger than Stanford's (GPA is a wash, and tiny advantage to Chi on LSAT). But you won't find anybody arguing that Chi is more selective than S.

Meanwhile, Yale's numbers aren't much stronger than Harvard's, but its admissions standards are a great deal tougher. My perception is that they're tougher than Harvard's by a greater extent than that to which Harvard's are tougher than Chicago's - not positive, but it's not a major turning point for what I was trying to say anyway.




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