biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

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anstone1988
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biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby anstone1988 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:55 pm

I heard this is the case at Stanford and Yale. Is it true?
Last edited by anstone1988 on Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paul Campos
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:56 pm

No

shoeshine
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby shoeshine » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:06 pm

I think this is true at Stanford and Yale minus some crazy outliers who maybe want biglaw but don't try.

09042014
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby 09042014 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:32 pm

shoeshine wrote:I think this is true at Stanford and Yale minus some crazy outliers who maybe want biglaw but don't try.


I find it hard to believe that firms want someone with really shitty grades and a bad personality.

AttaBoy
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby AttaBoy » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:42 pm

Everyone I know at YLS who had almost all or all Ps still got V100 offers. I haven't met anyone here who wanted biglaw and didn't get it. I'm sure if you had a crappy bidding strategy, all/mostly Ps, and a terrible personality/horrible interviewing skills, you'd strike out though.

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MachineLemon
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby MachineLemon » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I find it hard to believe that firms want someone with really shitty grades and a bad personality.


Credited. This fact should be repeated more often on TLS. If you are terrible at seeking, applying, and interviewing for jobs, your prospects (not just job vs. no job) are diminished regardless of which school you attend.

Speaking from my experience in securing non-legal jobs (employed 0L here), less egregious forms of ineptitude (interview jitters, resume typos) can be overcome by a prestigious degree, good grades, and a winning personality. However, there are some people who have the unique ability to provoke extreme awkwardness and/or dislike. Unfortunately, these poor souls are often those least likely to recognize this fact.

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mrtoren
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby mrtoren » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:24 pm

TylerM wrote:Speaking from my experience in securing non-legal jobs (employed 0L here), less egregious forms of ineptitude (interview jitters, resume typos) can be overcome by a prestigious degree, good grades, and a winning personality. However, there are some people who have the unique ability to provoke extreme awkwardness and/or dislike. Unfortunately, these poor souls are often those least likely to recognize this fact.

I agree with this. Arrogant, awkward, or otherwise weird people will not succeed in law, or any other job for that matter, regardless of how smart they are. That's why some T14 grads end up on doc review while a number of TT grads enjoy BigLaw.

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YourCaptain
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby YourCaptain » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:35 pm

mrtoren wrote:
TylerM wrote:Speaking from my experience in securing non-legal jobs (employed 0L here), less egregious forms of ineptitude (interview jitters, resume typos) can be overcome by a prestigious degree, good grades, and a winning personality. However, there are some people who have the unique ability to provoke extreme awkwardness and/or dislike. Unfortunately, these poor souls are often those least likely to recognize this fact.

I agree with this. Arrogant, awkward, or otherwise weird people will not succeed in law, or any other job for that matter, regardless of how smart they are. That's why some T14 grads end up on doc review while a number of TT grads enjoy BigLaw.


enjoy!

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enjoy!




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shoeshine
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby shoeshine » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:36 pm

TylerM wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I find it hard to believe that firms want someone with really shitty grades and a bad personality.


Credited. This fact should be repeated more often on TLS. If you are terrible at seeking, applying, and interviewing for jobs, your prospects (not just job vs. no job) are diminished regardless of which school you attend.

Speaking from my experience in securing non-legal jobs (employed 0L here), less egregious forms of ineptitude (interview jitters, resume typos) can be overcome by a prestigious degree, good grades, and a winning personality. However, there are some people who have the unique ability to provoke extreme awkwardness and/or dislike. Unfortunately, these poor souls are often those least likely to recognize this fact.


I actually think this is repeated on here too much. There are very few people with interview skills this bad. There are a ton of mediocre interviewers in law school but only a few people with extremely bad interview skills that never get help before they actually have to interview. Even the shy/anxious interviewing types get a ton of help from their CDO before they actually go through OCI. Your point will only affect a handful of people at each school.

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theavrock
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby theavrock » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:48 pm

shoeshine wrote:
TylerM wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I find it hard to believe that firms want someone with really shitty grades and a bad personality.


Credited. This fact should be repeated more often on TLS. If you are terrible at seeking, applying, and interviewing for jobs, your prospects (not just job vs. no job) are diminished regardless of which school you attend.

Speaking from my experience in securing non-legal jobs (employed 0L here), less egregious forms of ineptitude (interview jitters, resume typos) can be overcome by a prestigious degree, good grades, and a winning personality. However, there are some people who have the unique ability to provoke extreme awkwardness and/or dislike. Unfortunately, these poor souls are often those least likely to recognize this fact.


I actually think this is repeated on here too much. There are very few people with interview skills this bad. There are a ton of mediocre interviewers in law school but only a few people with extremely bad interview skills that never get help before they actually have to interview. Even the shy/anxious interviewing types get a ton of help from their CDO before they actually go through OCI. Your point will only affect a handful of people at each school.


Unless law students are unrepresentative (and better) than the rest of the population the above is incorrect.

Not sure what Shoeshine's experience with this is, but as someone who has interviewed people there are lots of folks out there that have no social skills and cannot interview well. Not only can they not interview well, they do exactly what Desert Fox and TM said and come off as arrogant, awkward or do other things that are just ridiculously inappropriate in an interview setting.

Not the majority of people, but a handful is absolutely inaccurate.

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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby c3pO4 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:59 pm

TylerM wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I find it hard to believe that firms want someone with really shitty grades and a bad personality.


Credited. This fact should be repeated more often on TLS. If you are terrible at seeking, applying, and interviewing for jobs, your prospects (not just job vs. no job) are diminished regardless of which school you attend.

Speaking from my experience in securing non-legal jobs (employed 0L here), less egregious forms of ineptitude (interview jitters, resume typos) can be overcome by a prestigious degree, good grades, and a winning personality. However, there are some people who have the unique ability to provoke extreme awkwardness and/or dislike. Unfortunately, these poor souls are often those least likely to recognize this fact.


Nice, 0L!

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MachineLemon
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby MachineLemon » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:42 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
TylerM wrote:Speaking from my experience in securing non-legal jobs (employed 0L here), less egregious forms of ineptitude (interview jitters, resume typos) can be overcome by a prestigious degree, good grades, and a winning personality. However, there are some people who have the unique ability to provoke extreme awkwardness and/or dislike. Unfortunately, these poor souls are often those least likely to recognize this fact.


Nice, 0L!


Haha, I feel like a tool posting on these employment threads. Most of my experience is with hiring at policy-related non-profits. I've been fortunate to see how things work on both sides of that process, and personality is a big deal for entry-level positions.

In regard to shoeshine's point about it being only a handful of people, I agree. I just meant to contrast the uniquely terrible with your commonplace goof-up.

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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby c3pO4 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:52 pm

TylerM wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:
TylerM wrote:Speaking from my experience in securing non-legal jobs (employed 0L here), less egregious forms of ineptitude (interview jitters, resume typos) can be overcome by a prestigious degree, good grades, and a winning personality. However, there are some people who have the unique ability to provoke extreme awkwardness and/or dislike. Unfortunately, these poor souls are often those least likely to recognize this fact.


Nice, 0L!


Haha, I feel like a tool posting on these employment threads. Most of my experience is with hiring at policy-related non-profits. I've been fortunate to see how things work on both sides of that process, and personality is a big deal for entry-level positions.

In regard to shoeshine's point about it being only a handful of people, I agree. I just meant to contrast the uniquely terrible with your commonplace goof-up.


The legal market is diff but it will help when you interview to have had prior job search experience, I found at least.

USAIRS
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby USAIRS » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:22 pm

Everyone is subject to being no-offered after either not performing well or not fitting-in, or just due to odd hiring patterns of law firms. 3L hiring is a farce regardless of where you go to school. No one is really immune to ending up without a big firm job just based on the name on the degree. Just because you go to Stanford or Yale doesn't mean that the UCLA summer associate isn't going to make you look like a slacker (or out-brown-nose you for that matter). Also, (gasp!) going to Yale doesn't mean that big firms aren't going to routinely pass you up to hire a Columbia grad or Michigan grad who fits in better with the needs of the firm. I watched a Yale grad acquaintance of mine bounce around trying to find a firm to hire him as a 3L in a certain state last year with no success. Granted, he already had a firm job somewhere that he didn't want to work, but that Yale degree didn't open very many doors. I'll admit I was surprised, too.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby ThreeRivers » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:32 pm

Interview skills, like most things in life... probably have a bell curve (a few that just are amazing at them, some that are absolutely horrible, and most falling in the large "average" portion)

c3pO4
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby c3pO4 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:04 am

Very few law students are amazing at interviewing, so if you are, it lets you overcome a lot. #1 reason to work before law school -- you figure out how to interview because you've interviewed for other jobs and at most places, even as an entry level, you will interview a few people. Being on the other side of that table is simply an invaluable experience.

keg411
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby keg411 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:11 am

c3pO4 wrote:Very few law students are amazing at interviewing, so if you are, it lets you overcome a lot. #1 reason to work before law school -- you figure out how to interview because you've interviewed for other jobs and at most places, even as an entry level, you will interview a few people. Being on the other side of that table is simply an invaluable experience.


Meh, I worked before law school and was still a shitty interviewer (was basically saved by school/grades). However, I hadn't interviewed for anything in 6 years and most people don't work that long, so the interview process might be more "fresh" (also, my boss did all of the interviews so I never got the "other side of the table" experience).

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Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:12 am

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09042014
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:07 am

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:i don't know a single person at hls that wanted big law and failed to get it this past fall. some people had to resort to mass mailing, but even they seemed to end up with multiple v100 offers. most people seemed preoccupied with getting gigs at ultra-prestigious shops as opposed to merely getting a market paying gig at all.

not sure about any other school, but i feel comfortable saying that if you come to hls, make a good faith effort in your classes, and lack a major personality defect, you're all but guaranteed a 160k salary upon graduation.


I have no idea what happens at HLS, but I will say, there are probably 30% of my class without big law based on historical placement, and I barely know anyone without something. People who have nothing don't advertise it probably because it's embarrassing.

I only know one guy who has nothing, but he's weird as fuck, but even he has some leads lined up. But there is no he's the only guy at NU missing big law.

And if I struck out I'd sure as fuck tell people "I didn't want big law, I did OCI for practice."

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hung jury
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby hung jury » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:17 am

Desert Fox wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:i don't know a single person at hls that wanted big law and failed to get it this past fall. some people had to resort to mass mailing, but even they seemed to end up with multiple v100 offers. most people seemed preoccupied with getting gigs at ultra-prestigious shops as opposed to merely getting a market paying gig at all.

not sure about any other school, but i feel comfortable saying that if you come to hls, make a good faith effort in your classes, and lack a major personality defect, you're all but guaranteed a 160k salary upon graduation.


I have no idea what happens at HLS, but I will say, there are probably 30% of my class without big law based on historical placement, and I barely know anyone without something. People who have nothing don't advertise it probably because it's embarrassing.

I only know one guy who has nothing, but he's weird as fuck, but even he has some leads lined up. But there is no he's the only guy at NU missing big law.

And if I struck out I'd sure as fuck tell people "I didn't want big law, I did OCI for practice."


At least at YS, knowing where your acquaintances and friends placed is a pretty good window into school placement. It is also usually pretty easy to spot the genuinely PI-focused students.

AttaBoy's post seems accurate to me.

flcath
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby flcath » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:36 am

Desert Fox wrote:And if I struck out I'd sure as fuck tell people "I didn't want big law, I did OCI for practice."

This sounds so fake though.

It reminds me of the 0Ls who say they could've gone to med school, but chose to do biglaw instead.

09042014
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:27 am

flcath wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:And if I struck out I'd sure as fuck tell people "I didn't want big law, I did OCI for practice."

This sounds so fake though.

It reminds me of the 0Ls who say they could've gone to med school, but chose to do biglaw instead.


I legitimately know one person who did that, and had the background where I believe it. Though it'd be transparent coming from me.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: biglaw essentially available to every student who wants it

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:41 am

Desert Fox wrote:I have no idea what happens at HLS, but I will say, there are probably 30% of my class without big law based on historical placement, and I barely know anyone without something. People who have nothing don't advertise it probably because it's embarrassing.

I only know one guy who has nothing, but he's weird as fuck, but even he has some leads lined up. But there is no he's the only guy at NU missing big law.

And if I struck out I'd sure as fuck tell people "I didn't want big law, I did OCI for practice."


While the idea of this post is credited, I do have to agree that it seems like almost everyone did great at HLS EIP this past fall. While I have heard of a small handful (read: I don't even know them) that did not get a job through OCI (mind you, I think they snagged one through mass mailing afterwards), it was never due to grades (a number of people with LPs got V100s)...but rather poor bidding, poor interviewing, or only focusing on a really tough market (or a combination of the 3 lol). And for poor interviewing...I really think, even if a person is not socially awkward, but does not come across as professional, it is quite damning.




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