Detailed Employment Stats

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Genki
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby Genki » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:15 pm

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread.

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hyakku
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby hyakku » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:19 pm

Berkeley's Class of 2010 numbers are looking pretty solid considering the general perception TLS likes to throw around about B (not everyone, but it's pretty prevalent). Definitely good to see considering I'd definitely like to consider it if I can manage to get in, and it's difficult to get objective opinions on it up here.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Some action today on the employment stats issue: There's another Above the Law article, and Law School Transparency has launched a new Live Transparency Index. I've included the links in the initial post.

I really think that all of this together is a great step in the right direction, and I feel fortunate that my law school decision making process will be better informed.

Thanks to the LST and ATL folks!

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Redamon1
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby Redamon1 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:51 pm

hyakku wrote:Berkeley's Class of 2010 numbers are looking pretty solid considering the general perception TLS likes to throw around about B (not everyone, but it's pretty prevalent). Definitely good to see considering I'd definitely like to consider it if I can manage to get in, and it's difficult to get objective opinions on it up here.


Another thing I find interesting is the geographical location of the newly employed grads. I’ve heard some people argue that Berkeley’s national reach is questionable because most of their grads find jobs in CA. The Berkeley page reports that 62% (171) of the c/o was employed in the “Pacific” region (of course Pacific includes more than CA) and approx. 15% (41) in the Mid-Atlantic and New England. The rest of the class headed to other regions and abroad.

Boalt graduates on TLS often say it’s because people chose to stay in California and those who chose to head East do find jobs. It’s hard to tell from these stats alone how much of this is due to personal preference as opposed to job prospects.

But upon reviewing numbers from other schools, they appear similarly “regionally centered,” yet some of these schools have a reputation (on TLS mind you) for having more portable degrees:

CLS: 83% in the Northeast + Mid-Atlantic (vs. 1% “West/Rocky Mountain”)

NYU: 71.6% in the Northeast + Mid-Atlantic (vs. 10.6% “Pacific”)

Penn: 76% in NY, PA, DC, NJ, DE, MA (vs. 9% CA)

UVA: 56.4 in DC, NY and VA (vs. 6.3% CA)

Stanford reports very little on its website and simply says that 56% of its graduates “take jobs outside CA”

Yale’s numbers are hard to read because they lump DC and DE with the entire Southeastern US. But if you add that region + Northeast + Mid-Atlantic, you get 65.3% (vs. 13% “Pacific”)

The comparisons are not perfect because schools use different categories, but I’d be curious to hear how others interpret these numbers. I tend to believe the argument that people go to schools in regions they like and often decide to stay there – and that would appear to be true for Berkeley as well as for other schools. It seems hard to infer anything definitive about the ease of employment outside the State/Region from these numbers alone. It would make sense that job opportunities in the region of the school can be relatively easier to find due to proximity for networking and the presence of alumni in the region. But if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, it seems people in the T14 manage to find jobs in their region of choice if they plan accordingly and market themselves aggressively.

iamrobk
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby iamrobk » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:33 pm

Redamon1 wrote:
hyakku wrote:Berkeley's Class of 2010 numbers are looking pretty solid considering the general perception TLS likes to throw around about B (not everyone, but it's pretty prevalent). Definitely good to see considering I'd definitely like to consider it if I can manage to get in, and it's difficult to get objective opinions on it up here.


Another thing I find interesting is the geographical location of the newly employed grads. I’ve heard some people argue that Berkeley’s national reach is questionable because most of their grads find jobs in CA. The Berkeley page reports that 62% (171) of the c/o was employed in the “Pacific” region (of course Pacific includes more than CA) and approx. 15% (41) in the Mid-Atlantic and New England. The rest of the class headed to other regions and abroad.

Boalt graduates on TLS often say it’s because people chose to stay in California and those who chose to head East do find jobs. It’s hard to tell from these stats alone how much of this is due to personal preference as opposed to job prospects.

But upon reviewing numbers from other schools, they appear similarly “regionally centered,” yet some of these schools have a reputation (on TLS mind you) for having more portable degrees:

CLS: 83% in the Northeast + Mid-Atlantic (vs. 1% “West/Rocky Mountain”)

NYU: 71.6% in the Northeast + Mid-Atlantic (vs. 10.6% “Pacific”)

Penn: 76% in NY, PA, DC, NJ, DE, MA (vs. 9% CA)

UVA: 56.4 in DC, NY and VA (vs. 6.3% CA)

Stanford reports very little on its website and simply says that 56% of its graduates “take jobs outside CA”

Yale’s numbers are hard to read because they lump DC and DE with the entire Southeastern US. But if you add that region + Northeast + Mid-Atlantic, you get 65.3% (vs. 13% “Pacific”)

The comparisons are not perfect because schools use different categories, but I’d be curious to hear how others interpret these numbers. I tend to believe the argument that people go to schools in regions they like and often decide to stay there – and that would appear to be true for Berkeley as well as for other schools. It seems hard to infer anything definitive about the ease of employment outside the State/Region from these numbers alone. It would make sense that job opportunities in the region of the school can be relatively easier to find due to proximity for networking and the presence of alumni in the region. But if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, it seems people in the T14 manage to find jobs in their region of choice if they plan accordingly and market themselves aggressively.

I think it's pretty clearly self-selection IMO. Just look at the employment forums on here.

r6_philly
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby r6_philly » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:26 pm

Or it could be that not everyone had access to their desired market, but they were able to find employment in other markets as a backup. There really isn't a good metric to gauge how national the T14s are without knowing if each of the grads ended up working in their desired market or not.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:Or it could be that not everyone had access to their desired market, but they were able to find employment in other markets as a backup. There really isn't a good metric to gauge how national the T14s are without knowing if each of the grads ended up working in their desired market or not.


Yeah, I agree with Philly here: There's just no practical way to measure "portability." I'd say the best bet is to attend a school whose primary market is somewhere you would at least be tolerably happy to work after graduation.

ahnhub
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby ahnhub » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:10 am

You know, I ran the numbers through a simple metric-- Number employed in firms of 100 or more + Clerkships, and of the schools which reported full data, the winner was...

Cornell (86% and 82% for 2009 and 2010, respectively).
The schools that were close were Chicago (88, 78) and Penn (86, 78).

Obviously lots of disclaimers, complications, etc. But dang, does Cornell really deliver if all you want is a Biglaw salary (or close to it).

r6_philly
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:22 pm

ahnhub wrote:You know, I ran the numbers through a simple metric-- Number employed in firms of 100 or more + Clerkships, and of the schools which reported full data, the winner was...

Cornell (86% and 82% for 2009 and 2010, respectively).
The schools that were close were Chicago (88, 78) and Penn (86, 78).

Obviously lots of disclaimers, complications, etc. But dang, does Cornell really deliver if all you want is a Biglaw salary (or close to it).


Is that (100+ employed)/total grads, or /grades working in private sector? If the latter, it's misleading. It has to be since there are usually >20% that clerk or go in to government.

This is the danger of misusing stats. Let's say school A has 100 out of 200 grads in private firms, and 99 of them in 100+ biglaw. School B has 160 out of 200 grades in private firms, but 120 in 100+. School A would be 99% (99/100), and school B would be 75% (120/160).

Use the total JD as denominator, and consider most Art III clerks have biglaw offers after clerking.

ahnhub
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby ahnhub » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:43 pm

r6_philly wrote:
ahnhub wrote:You know, I ran the numbers through a simple metric-- Number employed in firms of 100 or more + Clerkships, and of the schools which reported full data, the winner was...

Cornell (86% and 82% for 2009 and 2010, respectively).
The schools that were close were Chicago (88, 78) and Penn (86, 78).

Obviously lots of disclaimers, complications, etc. But dang, does Cornell really deliver if all you want is a Biglaw salary (or close to it).


Is that (100+ employed)/total grads, or /grades working in private sector? If the latter, it's misleading. It has to be since there are usually >20% that clerk or go in to government.

This is the danger of misusing stats. Let's say school A has 100 out of 200 grads in private firms, and 99 of them in 100+ biglaw. School B has 160 out of 200 grades in private firms, but 120 in 100+. School A would be 99% (99/100), and school B would be 75% (120/160).

Use the total JD as denominator, and consider most Art III clerks have biglaw offers after clerking.


The denominator was total JD. All three of those schools had very few people go into PI/Gov't, at least prior to 2010--in 2010 Cornell had 192 graduates, and 154 went into private practice, and 12 did clerkships. Only 6 did PI.

The big caveat for Biglaw hopefuls is that Cornell seems to do worse than the other NYC-centric schools for Vault ranking--but even that doesn't seem to be that dramatic. (I'm looking at Lawfirmaddict).

Maybe students at Cornell and UChi get rewarded for being in places where the fun goes to die? I don't know.

r6_philly
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:47 pm

ahnhub wrote:The denominator was total JD. All three of those schools had very few people go into PI/Gov't, at least prior to 2010--in 2010 Cornell had 192 graduates, and 154 went into private practice, and 12 did clerkships. Only 6 did PI.


154/192 = 80.2% < 86%/82% you quoted above?
It's actually 146/192 = 76% for 2010.

ahnhub
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby ahnhub » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:
ahnhub wrote:The denominator was total JD. All three of those schools had very few people go into PI/Gov't, at least prior to 2010--in 2010 Cornell had 192 graduates, and 154 went into private practice, and 12 did clerkships. Only 6 did PI.


154/192 = 80.2% < 86%/82% you quoted above?
It's actually 146/192 = 76% for 2010.


146 is the number in firms of 100+. I added people who did clerkships (12). 146+12=158. 158/192=.8229. I think that's right.

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bk1
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:59 pm

ahnhub wrote:146 is the number in firms of 100+. I added people who did clerkships (12). 146+12=158. 158/192=.8229. I think that's right.


Were they all A3 clerkships?

bdubs
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby bdubs » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:08 pm

bk1 wrote:
ahnhub wrote:146 is the number in firms of 100+. I added people who did clerkships (12). 146+12=158. 158/192=.8229. I think that's right.


Were they all A3 clerkships?


Seems like it.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

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skers
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby skers » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:15 pm

ahnhub wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
ahnhub wrote:You know, I ran the numbers through a simple metric-- Number employed in firms of 100 or more + Clerkships, and of the schools which reported full data, the winner was...

Cornell (86% and 82% for 2009 and 2010, respectively).
The schools that were close were Chicago (88, 78) and Penn (86, 78).

Obviously lots of disclaimers, complications, etc. But dang, does Cornell really deliver if all you want is a Biglaw salary (or close to it).


Is that (100+ employed)/total grads, or /grades working in private sector? If the latter, it's misleading. It has to be since there are usually >20% that clerk or go in to government.

This is the danger of misusing stats. Let's say school A has 100 out of 200 grads in private firms, and 99 of them in 100+ biglaw. School B has 160 out of 200 grades in private firms, but 120 in 100+. School A would be 99% (99/100), and school B would be 75% (120/160).

Use the total JD as denominator, and consider most Art III clerks have biglaw offers after clerking.


The denominator was total JD. All three of those schools had very few people go into PI/Gov't, at least prior to 2010--in 2010 Cornell had 192 graduates, and 154 went into private practice, and 12 did clerkships. Only 6 did PI.

The big caveat for Biglaw hopefuls is that Cornell seems to do worse than the other NYC-centric schools for Vault ranking--but even that doesn't seem to be that dramatic. (I'm looking at Lawfirmaddict).

Maybe students at Cornell and UChi get rewarded for being in places where the fun goes to die? I don't know.


I know you mentioned caveats already. but one big one is assuming that all positions of people going to firms with 100 attorneys or better are market or close to market paying positions. While this is probably true for 2010 in that Cornell's NLJ placement was 58.33% with a total of 112 1st year associates, it's probably not accurate to make the same claim in 2009 when their NLJ placement was 41.5% with 78 1st year associates. One really wonders what kind of firms 72 graduates (the difference between NLJ 250 placement and 100+ attorney law firm placement) landed at in 2009.

Also, it's a really bad idea to make any conclusions about general and long-term employment trends based on 2 years of data. Especially two years where we see substantial flux in legal hiring. Leaked OCI information over the past couple years doesn't support the conlusion that Cornell is a big law powerhouse on the scale of CCN.

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Errzii
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby Errzii » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:26 am

UCLA/USC updated their employment stats for c/o 2010 sometime earlier this month. They're still not perfect but somewhat better than before (earlier in the admission cycle). Just doing some quick napkin math reveals big law placement stats that NLJ already provided so nothing really all that new or shocking.

UCLA: http://www.law.ucla.edu/career-services ... stics.aspx
USC: http://weblaw.usc.edu/careers/statistics/

Also, this thread really needs to get stickied.

ahnhub
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby ahnhub » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:42 am

Anyone have any input as to whether the California/Chicago markets are thawing at all? The bounce-back in Biglaw hiring for 2010 OCI seems to have come mostly from NYC.

barneytrouble
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby barneytrouble » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:00 pm

ahnhub wrote:Anyone have any input as to whether the California/Chicago markets are thawing at all? The bounce-back in Biglaw hiring for 2010 OCI seems to have come mostly from NYC.


I don't know anything about california, but from everything I looked at, Chicago has recovered a bit. The rest of the midwest however is still looking ugly in general. Like, really ugly.

ahnhub
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby ahnhub » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:21 pm


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skers
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby skers » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:48 pm

ahnhub wrote:Some more grist for the mill: http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.co ... ut_slowly/


If that isn't proof of the TLS employment strata of HYS-CCN-MVP, I don't know what is.

ahnhub
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby ahnhub » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:02 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
ahnhub wrote:Some more grist for the mill: http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.co ... ut_slowly/


If that isn't proof of the TLS employment strata of HYS-CCN-MVP, I don't know what is.


Well, the MVP used as an example was Michigan, which historically puts less people into Biglaw than most of the T-14. I suspect they got absolutely hammered ITE because California and Chicago (where about 35% of their grads go) and regional Biglaw dried up and stayed dry, while NYC picked back up quickly. Penn probably fared better, I'm guessing?

But undoubtedly, it looks like there is a significant Biglaw advantage for a school like Chicago. I mean--89% SA pre-ITE, 69% right in the middle of the crash, and 77% a year after. That's bad-ass.

NYU confuses me. From the leaked OCI info it seemed like all of CCN had right around 70% of OCI participants getting an offer in 2009. But NYU reports just 55% of that class working at a firm that summer. Public interest self-selection can't account for all of that--that would mean only 80% of the class did OCI, assuming everyone who got an offer took it. OCS apparently also reported that 78% got an offer in 2010--and they report 70% of the class doing an SA the following summer. With the same assumptions, that would mean 90% OCI participation, which sounds more right, but still on the low side.

icpb
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby icpb » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:48 pm

http://www.law.stanford.edu/experience/ ... tatistics/

Am I reading this right? Stanford's A3 clerkship placement has reached 28%? This is insane! It surpasses Yale's 27% A3 rate.

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Bronck
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby Bronck » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:56 pm

icpb wrote:http://www.law.stanford.edu/experience/careers/prospective/statistics/

Am I reading this right? Stanford's A3 clerkship placement has reached 28%? This is insane! It surpasses Yale's 27% A3 rate.


Maybe I'm just reading the data wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me.

The pie chart says 23% of Stanford students got clerkships, but the chart below says 23 got COA and 27 got District Court. With 174 total graduates, that's 28.7%.

abacus
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby abacus » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:45 pm

Bronck wrote:
icpb wrote:http://www.law.stanford.edu/experience/careers/prospective/statistics/

Am I reading this right? Stanford's A3 clerkship placement has reached 28%? This is insane! It surpasses Yale's 27% A3 rate.


Maybe I'm just reading the data wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me.

The pie chart says 23% of Stanford students got clerkships, but the chart below says 23 got COA and 27 got District Court. With 174 total graduates, that's 28.7%.


Is it possible that a few people may have been hired for 2 consecutive clerkships and that there's some double-counting?

Also, does anybody have any info about Harvard?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Detailed Employment Stats

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:21 am

abacus wrote:
Bronck wrote:
icpb wrote:http://www.law.stanford.edu/experience/careers/prospective/statistics/

Am I reading this right? Stanford's A3 clerkship placement has reached 28%? This is insane! It surpasses Yale's 27% A3 rate.


Maybe I'm just reading the data wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me.

The pie chart says 23% of Stanford students got clerkships, but the chart below says 23 got COA and 27 got District Court. With 174 total graduates, that's 28.7%.


Is it possible that a few people may have been hired for 2 consecutive clerkships and that there's some double-counting?

Also, does anybody have any info about Harvard?


Yeah it's most likely counting people doing clerkships two years in a row.




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