Detailed Employment Stats Forum

[Ialdabaoth]

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/12/the-univ ... llow-suit/

The above ATL article discusses how Yale and Chicago now publish legitimate, detailed employment data on their websites. Today, I read that UVA also makes these statistics available.

Does anyone have a list of all T14 (and beyond if possible) schools that do likewise? If not, maybe we could make this a research/compilation thread.

UPDATE 1-18-12: There's a new ATL article about employment statistics and Law School Transparency's new Live Transparency Index. Here are the links:

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/01/law-scho ... whos-nice/
--LinkRemoved--

Here are the school links I've compiled so far:

Yale - http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm
Harvard - ?
Stanford - http://www.law.stanford.edu/experience/ ... tatistics/ (UPDATED: '08-'10 now available but still poor detail)
Columbia - http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... _/Students (unable to read graphs in Google Chrome)
Chicago - http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
NYU - http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
Michigan - http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx
Penn - http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html
Berkeley - --LinkRemoved-- (UPDATED: '10 now available with excellent detail, including permanent/temporary distinction)
UVA - http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm
Duke - http://www.law.duke.edu/career/resources/facts (not as detailed)
NU - http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/
Cornell - http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm (not as detailed)
Georgetown - ?
Texas - http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html (different format, haven't had time to evaluate)

Vanderbilt - http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... index.aspx
BU - http://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/caree ... stats.html
BC - http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/schools/la ... _full.html
Iowa - http://www.law.uiowa.edu/about/statisti ... oymentdata
UC Hastings - --LinkRemoved-- (excellent, clearly differentiates full- and part-time and salary survey respondents)
Houston - --LinkRemoved-- (detailed stats in "snapshot spreadsheet")
Cincinnati - --LinkRemoved-- (excellent)
Michigan State - --LinkRemoved-- (excellent)

[observationalist]

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/12/the-univ ... llow-suit/

The above ATL article discusses how Yale and Chicago now publish legitimate, detailed employment data on their websites. Today, I read that UVA also makes these statistics available.

Does anyone have a list of all T14 (and beyond if possible) schools that do likewise? If not, maybe we could make this a research/compilation thread. Here are the links for the first three:

Yale - http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm
Chicago - http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
UVA - http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

The level of detail on the Yale/Chicago stats actually isn't that great. It just doesn't matter for those schools because the outcomes are consistently strong for virtually everyone in the class. For example, neither distinguishes jobs based on whether they are full time or part time, whether they are permanent or temporary, or whether they were funded by the law school. (UVA, to its credit, does identify the very large percentage of graduates whose jobs were funded by the school). It is likely the case that few to none of their grads failed to find full-time gigs, although both schools probably helped at least a couple graduates with post-grad stipends. For schools where the job outcomes are not as strong and where there are serious questions as to what people are doing for work, there is certainly a duty to disclose the job stats with greater granularity than what Chicago has chosen to do. Even at the top schools this would also apply to the larger programs, since it's more likely they'll have gaps in the data due to the difficulty of tracking everyone down.

ATL may be writing a follow-up on this that looks at a number of other programs and might help you in compiling a list.

[Ialdabaoth]

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/12/the-univ ... llow-suit/

The above ATL article discusses how Yale and Chicago now publish legitimate, detailed employment data on their websites. Today, I read that UVA also makes these statistics available.

Does anyone have a list of all T14 (and beyond if possible) schools that do likewise? If not, maybe we could make this a research/compilation thread. Here are the links for the first three:

Yale - http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm
Chicago - http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
UVA - http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

The level of detail on the Yale/Chicago stats actually isn't that great. It just doesn't matter for those schools because the outcomes are consistently strong for virtually everyone in the class. For example, neither distinguishes jobs based on whether they are full time or part time, whether they are permanent or temporary, or whether they were funded by the law school. (UVA, to its credit, does identify the very large percentage of graduates whose jobs were funded by the school). It is likely the case that few to none of their grads failed to find full-time gigs, although both schools probably helped at least a couple graduates with post-grad stipends. For schools where the job outcomes are not as strong and where there are serious questions as to what people are doing for work, there is certainly a duty to disclose the job stats with greater granularity than what Chicago has chosen to do. Even at the top schools this would also apply to the larger programs, since it's more likely they'll have gaps in the data due to the difficulty of tracking everyone down.

ATL may be writing a follow-up on this that looks at a number of other programs and might help you in compiling a list.

I agree these aren't perfect, but I think they're a lot better than what has traditionally been available, and I feel they could serve as a model for other schools in the T14 and beyond. I think your distinction between part-time/full-time and temporary/permanent isn't that important in this situation because (to use UVA's numbers as an example) 90+% of the class is reporting salary and 60+% is at a firm with over 500 attorneys. How many people get part-time positions making $135,000 or more (their 25th percentile)? I don't see how there could be a significant number of grads scraping by in a part-time or temporary gig. I realize you might have meant that these distinctions would be important for lower-ranked schools, but I still think this model of employment data release would reveal problems like part-time employment, e.g. with lower median and 25th percentile salaries.

In the end, I think the potential "model" aspect of these data sets is their real relevance.

[koalatriste]

NYU:

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm

[Ialdabaoth]

NYU:

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm

Thanks, koala! I'll add it to the original post. As more data sets are published, I think this thread could become a good resource for applicants. Do you all think the rest of the T14 will follow suit since schools as far down as UVA have released theirs? Personally, I would really like to see Berkeley's stats, but I can't find anything similar on their website.

[als2011]

This is a link to Cornell's employment stats.

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm


Key component that seems to be lacking here is the JD/Bar passage required for job entry criteria.

Also, Cornell reports the placement stats for current 1Ls and 2Ls. In general, all of these institutions could do a far better job in reporting employment stats.

[booboo]

First, please don't say as far down, I don't appreciate the insinuation that the ranking of UVA is that significant, especially in light of employment statistics that look quite comparable to the higher end of the rankings. .

I think it will be adopted by other schools, as I think it may be the ABA pushing schools to release data like this. Will it happen quickly is a whole other matter.

[Ialdabaoth]

First, please don't say as far down, I don't appreciate the insinuation that the ranking of UVA is that significant, especially in light of employment statistics that look quite comparable to the higher end of the rankings. .

I think it will be adopted by other schools, as I think it may be the ABA pushing schools to release data like this. Will it happen quickly is a whole other matter.

I seriously almost added this sentence before I posted my last reply: "(And I don't mean to imply that UVA is "low-ranked;" I just mean it is in the middle of the T14.)"

I would LOVE to be at UVA in two years and definitely didn't mean any disrespect.

[Ialdabaoth]

This is a link to Cornell's employment stats.

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm


Key component that seems to be lacking here is the JD/Bar passage required for job entry criteria.

Also, Cornell reports the placement stats for current 1Ls and 2Ls. In general, all of these institutions could do a far better job in reporting employment stats.

Thanks for that link! Not hatin' but these data don't seem to be on quite the same level as the rest though. Salary numbers are lacking, and they don't lay out percentages as clearly.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "JD/Bar passage required for job entry criteria," but aren't bar passage rates readily available in the US News rankings? Albeit they might only be published in the pay version.

[als2011]

This is a link to Cornell's employment stats.

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm


Key component that seems to be lacking here is the JD/Bar passage required for job entry criteria.

Also, Cornell reports the placement stats for current 1Ls and 2Ls. In general, all of these institutions could do a far better job in reporting employment stats.

Thanks for that link! Not hatin' but these data don't seem to be on quite the same level as the rest though. Salary numbers are lacking, and they don't lay out percentages as clearly.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "JD/Bar passage required for job entry criteria," but aren't bar passage rates readily available in the US News rankings? Albeit they might only be published in the pay version.

No, I agree entirely that Cornell's stats are not as thorough as those provided by the other law schools to which you have thus far provided links. I wished to provide them simply for comparisons sake. I'm not sure how far you wish to take this project, but perhaps it is worthwhile to consider categorizing the quality of an institutions reported employment statistics in relation to its peers. I don't necessarily mean evaluating each one, but perhaps creating brackets that let readers know if the employment stats published by a school are (for example) Excellent, Good, Fair, or Poor.

Also, what I meant by my "JD/Bar passage" statement was that Cornell does not publish the information pertaining to alums who are employed in jobs for which a JD or Bar passage is required. This is a statistic that is perhaps less relevant for T14 schools, however, it is a crucial piece of information, as many schools publish high-employment statistics without clarifying the nature of the employment their graduates were in. For example, how many students, upon graduation, found themselves "employed," but not in the legal sector--perhaps returning to old careers or scrounging up low income retail work after not having any luck in the legal market. Every law school should be required to make public how many of its graduates are actually employed in work requiring a JD upon graduation. Unfortunately, many do not.

[Ialdabaoth]

This is a link to Cornell's employment stats.

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/career ... istics.cfm


Key component that seems to be lacking here is the JD/Bar passage required for job entry criteria.

Also, Cornell reports the placement stats for current 1Ls and 2Ls. In general, all of these institutions could do a far better job in reporting employment stats.

Thanks for that link! Not hatin' but these data don't seem to be on quite the same level as the rest though. Salary numbers are lacking, and they don't lay out percentages as clearly.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "JD/Bar passage required for job entry criteria," but aren't bar passage rates readily available in the US News rankings? Albeit they might only be published in the pay version.

No, I agree entirely that Cornell's stats are not as thorough as those provided by the other law schools to which you have thus far provided links. I wished to provide them simply for comparisons sake. I'm not sure how far you wish to take this project, but perhaps it is worthwhile to consider categorizing the quality of an institutions reported employment statistics in relation to its peers. I don't necessarily mean evaluating each one, but perhaps creating brackets that let readers know if the employment stats published by a school are (for example) Excellent, Good, Fair, or Poor.

Also, what I meant by my "JD/Bar passage" statement was that Cornell does not publish the information pertaining to alums who are employed in jobs for which a JD or Bar passage is required. This is a statistic that is perhaps less relevant for T14 schools, however, it is a crucial piece of information, as many schools publish high-employment statistics without clarifying the nature of the employment their graduates were in. For example, how many students, upon graduation, found themselves "employed," but not in the legal sector--perhaps returning to old careers or scrounging up low income retail work after not having any luck in the legal market. Every law school should be required to make public how many of its graduates are actually employed in legal work upon requiring a JD upon graduation. Unfortunately, many do not.

Your ranking/categorization is a great idea! I'll try to take that up after the holidays.

And gotcha, I definitely agree that it's really important for schools to distinguish between JD required, preferred, and other employment.

[skers]

Good to see more transperancy in employment data. I'd expect we see all the t13 schools follow suit.

[ahnhub]

I wonder how open they will be to posting c/o 2011 statistics. Those are probably truly brutal--the Biglaw placements probably dropped by a third at lower T-14.

[ScrabbleChamp]

Michigan: http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

[skers]

Michigan: http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

Wow. Looks like Michigan did get hammered a bit for c/o 2010.

[Ialdabaoth]

Michigan: http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

Thanks, Scrabble!

[Ialdabaoth]

Michigan: http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

Wow. Looks like Michigan did get hammered a bit for c/o 2010.

Yeah, looks like they didn't fair as well as UVA. But I really like the layout of their stats.

[ihhwap1]

.

[bk1]

NU has generally had more detailed stats than normal but I think they made them more detailed since I last saw them.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

[Ialdabaoth]

Duke and Penn have always had somewhat detailed employment statistics, though perhaps they will update them to match the newer/more detailed layout of other t14s.

Duke: http://www.law.duke.edu/career/resources/facts

Penn: http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html

Thanks! I like Penn's info on clerkships, but they are a bit lacking on 25th/75th salary data.

[Ialdabaoth]

NU has generally had more detailed stats than normal but I think they made them more detailed since I last saw them.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

Yeah, these have excellent detail, especially compared to NU's closest peers! Thanks!

[Bildungsroman]

Damn, even Duke's extremely limited data shows some unimpressive placement. I'd also like to see Duke do a breakdown on clerkships like some other schools have instead of just putting up 16.8% and leaving it at that.

[NYC Law]

Just checked out BU out of curiosity and their stats are impressively detailed now: http://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/caree ... html#stats

It's also pretty damn depressing that only 71% of the class of '10 had a full time job 9 months out.

[Ialdabaoth]

Just checked out BU out of curiosity and their stats are impressively detailed now: http://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/caree ... html#stats

It's also pretty damn depressing that only 71% of the class of '10 had a full time job 9 months out.

Yeah, looks pretty rough. Also, I wish they had more charts/tables and less writing, haha. I felt like they just really wanted to say that even though the legal market is kind of sucking, BU is still great.

[NYC Law]

Just checked out BU out of curiosity and their stats are impressively detailed now: http://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/caree ... html#stats

It's also pretty damn depressing that only 71% of the class of '10 had a full time job 9 months out.

Yeah, looks pretty rough. Also, I wish they had more charts/tables and less writing, haha. I felt like they just really wanted to say that even though the legal market is kind of sucking, BU is still great.

Did you click the little blue arrows? Once you do that you get a lot more data

They deserve a lot of credit for probably being the most upfront school with the data. Under academia they state exactly how many are doing part-time fellowships with them, and under clerkships they even state how many are funded by BU.