Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011 Forum

[phialphadelta]

I also have issues with Thomas Jefferson School of Law's sketchy grading system.

They switched from the 4.0 to 4.3 as the highest grade curve 2 years. As a result high grade achieving people who came to Thomas Jefferson while the 4.0 curve was in place had a harder time getting into the top 10% of the graduating class because people after that were able to get 4.3's, 4.2's, and 4.1's as their highest grades for classes.

This was brought up to Dean Rudy Hasl two years in a row during Student-Dean Forums, he was dumbfounded both years.

In 2010, Beth kransberger jumped in on Dean Rudy Hasl's behalf and said the "school is looking into what can be done"

In 2011, Eric Mitnick jumped in on Dean Rudy Hasl's behalf and said "this question was already answered last year"


This also puts students who attended Thomas Jefferson while it was on the 4.0 scale to be at a disadvantage when it came to internships or jobs because they would fall at a lower class ranking than those who came in after the 4.3 curve was put in place.

[Lawl Shcool]

I also have issues with Thomas Jefferson School of Law's sketchy grading system.

They switched from the 4.0 to 4.3 as the highest grade curve 2 years. As a result high grade achieving people who came to Thomas Jefferson while the 4.0 curve was in place had a harder time getting into the top 10% of the graduating class because people after that were able to get 4.3's, 4.2's, and 4.1's as their highest grades for classes.

This was brought up to Dean Rudy Hasl two years in a row during Student-Dean Forums, he was dumbfounded both years.

In 2010, Beth kransberger jumped in on Dean Rudy Hasl's behalf and said the "school is looking into what can be done"

In 2011, Eric Mitnick jumped in on Dean Rudy Hasl's behalf and said "this question was already answered last year"


This also puts students who attended Thomas Jefferson while it was on the 4.0 scale to be at a disadvantage when it came to internships or jobs because they would fall at a lower class ranking than those who came in after the 4.3 curve was put in place.

You really don't understand how class rank works at all. How would incoming TJ students (1L/2L) affect the class rank at graduation for 3Ls? Each class is ranked only against themselves based on expected graduation date, so even though 1L and 2L ccurves may be higher numerically, class rank is still x/xxx for each class. Top 10% on a 4.0 scale is the same as top 10% on a 4.3 scale, it is still 10% of the class. The only variable that could affect it would be the size of the class.

GPAs would appear higher for the students who attended during the 4.3 era vs. the 4.0 era but your actual GPA is totally meaningless, it is class rank that matters.

[flcath]

I also have issues with Thomas Jefferson School of Law's sketchy grading system.

They switched from the 4.0 to 4.3 as the highest grade curve 2 years. As a result high grade achieving people who came to Thomas Jefferson while the 4.0 curve was in place had a harder time getting into the top 10% of the graduating class because people after that were able to get 4.3's, 4.2's, and 4.1's as their highest grades for classes.

This was brought up to Dean Rudy Hasl two years in a row during Student-Dean Forums, he was dumbfounded both years.

In 2010, Beth kransberger jumped in on Dean Rudy Hasl's behalf and said the "school is looking into what can be done"

In 2011, Eric Mitnick jumped in on Dean Rudy Hasl's behalf and said "this question was already answered last year"


This also puts students who attended Thomas Jefferson while it was on the 4.0 scale to be at a disadvantage when it came to internships or jobs because they would fall at a lower class ranking than those who came in after the 4.3 curve was put in place.

You really don't understand how class rank works at all. How would incoming TJ students (1L/2L) affect the class rank at graduation for 3Ls? Each class is ranked only against themselves based on expected graduation date, so even though 1L and 2L ccurves may be higher numerically, class rank is still x/xxx for each class. Top 10% on a 4.0 scale is the same as top 10% on a 4.3 scale, it is still 10% of the class. The only variable that could affect it would be the size of the class.

GPAs would appear higher for the students who attended during the 4.3 era vs. the 4.0 era but your actual GPA is totally meaningless, it is class rank that matters.

In theory. But what about places that don't rank.

[Lawl Shcool]

In theory. But what about places that don't rank.

We're talking about TJSL in this thread, which does rank. As do its main competition, USD and Cal Western.

[Errzii]

A significant number of people attending Thomas Jefferson choose not to take the California bar? LOOOOL good fucking luck trying to find a job inside California coming from TJ, much less elsewhere. I'm willing to bet that the majority of those people aren't taking the bar because they're now working at Starbucks.

You would be willing to bet huh? That is based on all your 0L experience with TJ grads?

With a 2.8 in poly sci from a public college you are much more likely to be working at starbucks than any TJ grad. That gpa is lower than the 25% of the school you are making fun of here.

Also, judging by your previous posts in the "Forever Alones", "On-line Dating Advice" and "Food Picwhoring" threads, if I was willing to bet, it would be that you're an extremely over-weight and socially awkward female who spends more time on the internet trying to raise your self-esteem by putting people down than you have spent in the presence of any guy willing to touch you in your entire life.

I'm not 100% sure but I think this guy is mad.

[crumpetsandtea]

A significant number of people attending Thomas Jefferson choose not to take the California bar? LOOOOL good fucking luck trying to find a job inside California coming from TJ, much less elsewhere. I'm willing to bet that the majority of those people aren't taking the bar because they're now working at Starbucks.

You would be willing to bet huh? That is based on all your 0L experience with TJ grads?

With a 2.8 in poly sci from a public college you are much more likely to be working at starbucks than any TJ grad. That gpa is lower than the 25% of the school you are making fun of here.

Also, judging by your previous posts in the "Forever Alones", "On-line Dating Advice" and "Food Picwhoring" threads, if I was willing to bet, it would be that you're an extremely over-weight and socially awkward female who spends more time on the internet trying to raise your self-esteem by putting people down than you have spent in the presence of any guy willing to touch you in your entire life.

I'm not 100% sure but I think this guy is mad.

I believe he was. FWIW though, I'm officially T14 sekure so (again) he can be as mad as he likes.

[flcath]

You would be willing to bet huh? That is based on all your 0L experience with TJ grads?

With a 2.8 in poly sci from a public college you are much more likely to be working at starbucks than any TJ grad. That gpa is lower than the 25% of the school you are making fun of here.

Also, judging by your previous posts in the "Forever Alones", "On-line Dating Advice" and "Food Picwhoring" threads, if I was willing to bet, it would be that you're an extremely over-weight and socially awkward female who spends more time on the internet trying to raise your self-esteem by putting people down than you have spent in the presence of any guy willing to touch you in your entire life.

I'm not 100% sure but I think this guy is mad.

I believe he was. FWIW though, I'm officially T14 sekure so (again) he can be as mad as he likes.

I'm with you w/r/t the guy being a dick, but the bolded hasn't existed in a long time now.

[crumpetsandtea]

You would be willing to bet huh? That is based on all your 0L experience with TJ grads?

With a 2.8 in poly sci from a public college you are much more likely to be working at starbucks than any TJ grad. That gpa is lower than the 25% of the school you are making fun of here.

Also, judging by your previous posts in the "Forever Alones", "On-line Dating Advice" and "Food Picwhoring" threads, if I was willing to bet, it would be that you're an extremely over-weight and socially awkward female who spends more time on the internet trying to raise your self-esteem by putting people down than you have spent in the presence of any guy willing to touch you in your entire life.

I'm not 100% sure but I think this guy is mad.

I believe he was. FWIW though, I'm officially T14 sekure so (again) he can be as mad as he likes.

I'm with you w/r/t the guy being a dick, but the bolded hasn't existed in a long time now.

Are you referring to the T14 distinction (now that UT and GULC are technically tied), or something else? I just meant that I was officially admitted to a T14 school...not trying to make any comments about job security or ease of post-grad employment, especially not in this job climate.

[snehpets]

A significant number of people attending Thomas Jefferson choose not to take the California bar? LOOOOL good fucking luck trying to find a job inside California coming from TJ, much less elsewhere. I'm willing to bet that the majority of those people aren't taking the bar because they're now working at Starbucks.

You would be willing to bet huh? That is based on all your 0L experience with TJ grads?

With a 2.8 in poly sci from a public college you are much more likely to be working at starbucks than any TJ grad. That gpa is lower than the 25% of the school you are making fun of here.

Also, judging by your previous posts in the "Forever Alones", "On-line Dating Advice" and "Food Picwhoring" threads, if I was willing to bet, it would be that you're an extremely over-weight and socially awkward female who spends more time on the internet trying to raise your self-esteem by putting people down than you have spent in the presence of any guy willing to touch you in your entire life.

I'm not 100% sure but I think this guy is mad.

This was all highly entertaining, especially the part where the guy stalks crumpetsandtea around tls to insult her.

If TJSL was so frigging fantastic, why'd you leave?

Edit: but seriously I am curious (no sarcasm) why you bother to talk up TJSL on here (not debating your accuracy at this point) when you were obviously quick to transfer out. I'm not saying you should trash your "roots" or w/e, but you must've had a reason for leaving.

[flcath]

I'm not 100% sure but I think this guy is mad.

I believe he was. FWIW though, I'm officially T14 sekure so (again) he can be as mad as he likes.

I'm with you w/r/t the guy being a dick, but the bolded hasn't existed in a long time now.

Are you referring to the T14 distinction (now that UT and GULC are technically tied), or something else? I just meant that I was officially admitted to a T14 school...not trying to make any comments about job security or ease of post-grad employment, especially not in this job climate.

Yeah, I was referring to the "secure" part. ("sekure [sic]")

I don't know why I felt the need to make the comment. Typical TLS killjoy shit.

[crumpetsandtea]

I believe he was. FWIW though, I'm officially T14 sekure so (again) he can be as mad as he likes.

I'm with you w/r/t the guy being a dick, but the bolded hasn't existed in a long time now.

Are you referring to the T14 distinction (now that UT and GULC are technically tied), or something else? I just meant that I was officially admitted to a T14 school...not trying to make any comments about job security or ease of post-grad employment, especially not in this job climate.

Yeah, I was referring to the "secure" part. ("sekure [sic]")

I don't know why I felt the need to make the comment. Typical TLS killjoy shit.

Nah, it's cool bro. I wasn't intending that to be the subtext of 'sekure' anyway, it was just referring to securing a spot in a top school.

Lord knows I'll still need all the help I can get to land a jerb. XD

[Lawl Shcool]

This was all highly entertaining, especially the part where the guy stalks crumpetsandtea around tls to insult her.

If TJSL was so frigging fantastic, why'd you leave?

Edit: but seriously I am curious (no sarcasm) why you bother to talk up TJSL on here (not debating your accuracy at this point) when you were obviously quick to transfer out. I'm not saying you should trash your "roots" or w/e, but you must've had a reason for leaving.

I don't think I was "quick" to transfer out, there is only 1 point in time in law school that allows you to transfer and that is when I did it. I entered law school pretty naive about everything and figured if I just went super hard and finished at the top of the class, I would be fine (which I still think is true, top of the class at any school is going to be ok). I discovered after the first semester that transferring was even possible in law school and in an effort to maximize the return on my law school investment (I was not on a large scholly at TJ) that was the best option because I was able to get into a good school. I was very lucky in that respect.

Your edit is exactly on point, I look back very fondly on my time at TJ and it really bothers me reading comments by people who obviously have no experience whatsoever with the school. I am proud of my roots there and have nothing but positive things to say about my time there. The professors were amazing and easily on par with the professors I have had at Boalt. They may not produce the same level of scholarship but I couldn't care less about that type of shit - my concern is getting a good classroom experience, which the TJ profs were great at.

It is sad that TJ grads (I assume phialphadelta is a grad - who most likely just failed the bar and is blaming others for his/her own shortcomings) come on here and add to the negative discussion of the school.

[snehpets]

If the curriculum/profs are just as good, why do you suppose so many people don't pass the bar? Serious question. Because of the people that choose to go there (and not transfer out) and their inherent abilities or what?

[Bildungsroman]

If the curriculum/profs are just as good, why do you suppose so many people don't pass the bar? Serious question. Because of the people that choose to go there (and not transfer out) and their inherent abilities or what?

And with their terrible employment prospects and lousy bar passage rates, who gives a shit how compelling the classroom experience is? And don't the professors have to be better instructors than the ones at high-ranked schools anyway, since they're dealing with a student body that can't even learn the bar effectively?

[AriGoldButNicer]

I don't think the bar passage means they're bad at teaching law by itself. That's like saying a tutor who brings students from 169s to a 170 is better than one who brings them from a 120 to a 150 only because their students did better. Who are they teaching? Honestly, the fact 33 percent of the people at TJSL passed the hardest state bar is pretty impressive. If you meet some of the people at these places, hear them speak and track their work ethic, you'd be amazed so many pass.

[Lawl Shcool]

If the curriculum/profs are just as good, why do you suppose so many people don't pass the bar? Serious question. Because of the people that choose to go there (and not transfer out) and their inherent abilities or what?

Well I haven't taken the bar yet so I am not in the best position to be talking about it, but, at the very least it is a complex problem that doesn't have a single quick fix. My point earlier in this thread is that the school does just about everything it could do for the students by requiring (almost) all of the bar topics to be taken before graduation, having strong professors, and offering the requisite resources to help people register for the bar. From my perspective they are "bringing the horse to the water." TJ students are certainly as able as students at any other school so it is hard for me to see where this problem even comes from.

[Bildungsroman]

If the curriculum/profs are just as good, why do you suppose so many people don't pass the bar? Serious question. Because of the people that choose to go there (and not transfer out) and their inherent abilities or what?

Well I haven't taken the bar yet so I am not in the best position to be talking about it, but, at the very least it is a complex problem that doesn't have a single quick fix. My point earlier in this thread is that the school does just about everything it could do for the students by requiring (almost) all of the bar topics to be taken before graduation, having strong professors, and offering the requisite resources to help people register for the bar. From my perspective they are "bringing the horse to the water." TJ students are certainly as able as students at any other school so it is hard for me to see where this problem even comes from.

So the school isn't doing anything wrong and the students are as able. What explains the massive gulf? Are the students just lazy? Is the bar discriminating?

[snehpets]

If the curriculum/profs are just as good, why do you suppose so many people don't pass the bar? Serious question. Because of the people that choose to go there (and not transfer out) and their inherent abilities or what?

TJ students are certainly as able as students at any other school so it is hard for me to see where this problem even comes from.

Do you really think this is true? I'm not trying to be a douche, or say that you're not able (obviously you transferred to berkeley), but not EVERYONE on earth is really "able" to succeed in law school/pass the bar, etc. I'm not even saying they're dumb. My dad is really intelligent and pretty successful (I think, anyway) in a scientific field, but there's no freaking way he would succeed in law school. He just doesn't think that way. MOST of the people who are at TJSL are people who performed badly in undergrad, badly on the LSAT, and, according to the 33% bar passage rate, badly on the bar. Maybe they really aren't able, on the whole, at least in this field. I'm genuinely not going for cheap shots, but I think there are people who really aren't cut out to be lawyers. For all I know, I'm one of them.

[Lawl Shcool]

So the school isn't doing anything wrong and the students are as able. What explains the massive gulf? Are the students just lazy? Is the bar discriminating?

I don't know what explains the gulf - that was the main point of my post. I do not think the bar is discriminating.

Do you really think this is true? I'm not trying to be a douche, or say that you're not able (obviously you transferred to berkeley), but not EVERYONE on earth is really "able" to succeed in law school/pass the bar, etc. I'm not even saying they're dumb. My dad is really intelligent and pretty successful (I think, anyway) in a scientific field, but there's no freaking way he would succeed in law school. He just doesn't think that way. MOST of the people who are at TJSL are people who performed badly in undergrad, badly on the LSAT, and, according to the 33% bar passage rate, badly on the bar. Maybe they really aren't able, on the whole, at least in this field. I'm genuinely not going for cheap shots, but I think there are people who really aren't cut out to be lawyers. For all I know, I'm one of them.

Yes I think it is true. I found the TJ students to be very smart. I think your point about your dad is spot on - there are certainly people who simply cannot perform regardless of preparation, look at athletes who work their whole lives but cannot stay in the pros. Perhaps there is a higher concentration of that group at a lower ranked school if the lower GPA and LSAT scores are taken as indicators of ability to perform. However, I had a very low GPA and LSAT (even for TJSL standards), as did several other people I knew who were at the top of the class there. Also, given how transfers have performed post-transfer against "better" competition, I am not convinced that GPA/LSAT is indicative of ones ability to perform on law school tests (which I assume are at least comparable to a bar question as I haven't ever seen one). That being said, there isn't any other way of measuring incoming students at this point.

My view on law is that once you are at a certain level of intelligence, the only deciding factor in who is going to get a higher grade is the person who has worked the hardest to learn the material. Some things like writing ability and typing speed are variables to be considered, but for the most part the person who is best prepared will get the highest grade. Best prepared means knowing the rules and having a system ready to apply the rules to some random facts, there is very little "natural ability" there besides basic memorization. Some rules and laws are complicated, but with some work just about any college grad can understand them.

[Lawl Shcool]

Edit - Double Post

[BadActor]

I have to say that having read a bunch of these forums, I am surprised with the derisive tone and negative comments regarding TJSL, phialphadelta. You're either in that 67% and depressed, negative, and blaming someone else for your failure to pass, or pregnant and moody.

My experience at TJSL was very positive. I have no regrets, especially trading the friendly atmosphere for a more cutthroat one. Admittedly, there were many less-than-positive exchanges with the Administration (most especially Student Services, but that's another issue), however, I don't blame them totally for the 33% bar pass rate. I know a lot of people in that group, and while I think the school should do something to remedy that - and it is certainly in their best interest to do so, I don't blame them wholesale. Yes, there are many things MANY law schools can do to "level the playing field" but frankly, it's the individual's own damn fault when they don't pass. Study harder. Study smarter. There are plenty of aids out there and plenty of programs around.

As to the grades - screw them. If you're so worried about the curve, then you should have transferred or studied harder. Ultimately success is on the individual. I am tired of the entitled bullshit I see every day.

It's your grade, it's on you. Lawl School has it right: Don't blame someone else.

I also have issues with Thomas Jefferson School of Law's sketchy grading system.

They switched from the 4.0 to 4.3 as the highest grade curve 2 years. As a result high grade achieving people who came to Thomas Jefferson while the 4.0 curve was in place had a harder time getting into the top 10% of the graduating class because people after that were able to get 4.3's, 4.2's, and 4.1's as their highest grades for classes.

This was brought up to Dean Rudy Hasl two years in a row during Student-Dean Forums, he was dumbfounded both years.

In 2010, Beth kransberger jumped in on Dean Rudy Hasl's behalf and said the "school is looking into what can be done"

In 2011, Eric Mitnick jumped in on Dean Rudy Hasl's behalf and said "this question was already answered last year"


This also puts students who attended Thomas Jefferson while it was on the 4.0 scale to be at a disadvantage when it came to internships or jobs because they would fall at a lower class ranking than those who came in after the 4.3 curve was put in place.

[Lawl Shcool]

Don't blame someone else.

Exactly.

[Bildungsroman]

Don't blame someone else.

Exactly.

That's just punting the issue, though. If we can place all the blame on the individual, then you still have to ask the environmental question. What caused TJSL to admit a student body that would so be filled with individual failures? Was it an inherent quality of the incoming student class that caused this widespread failure, or do other schools admit a similar student body but do something that instills in the students some quality that makes them better bar takers? You've skirted around identifying what you think is the cause of this enormous gap beyond stating that the student body is just as good and the school does everything it could. There has to be an explanation.

[phialphadelta]

Thomas Jefferson school of law takes the same number of poor level students (153 and below lsat scores, sub 3.0 gpas, etc.) that neighboring Cal western does.

The difference of performance on the bar is purely due to the crappy teaching/preparation that the Academic's Dean of Thomas Jefferson school of law setup.

[phialphadelta]

Cal-Western might be low ranked, but they make damn sure their graduates pass the bar. The first year they cut 20% of the class (just like Thomas Jefferson school of law does), and if you were near the bottom you are required to take classes that help you learn how to do better in classes your 2L year. Your 3L year you have to take a pre-bar class that teaches you how to write bar essays and performance tests, and if you take all these classes you then get Bar Bri for $500, and it's not just normal Bar Bri - its Bar Bri on steroids and because CWSL is on trimesters, you get an extra 3-4 weeks of studying time. It sucks not to get a spring break, but it's totally worth it come bar prep time.


Professor's at TJSL like Eniola Akinemowo, the tenured contracts professor, who barely understands contracts let alone teach it.
Most professors have mixed reviews, but hers are all across the board horrendous even for students who received a 4.3 grade for her class.


The school stopped allowing Barbri to come on campus and will not let the Barbri reps make announcements in classes. They instead charge their own Thomas Jefferson law school students another $4,000 to take their "Bar Secrets" course to pass the bar.

Thomas Jefferson School of law representatives are preoccupied with the new building and buying awards from the San Diego law community rather than worrying about their students learn how to take the California bar.

Thomas Jefferson school of law's academic structure is a joke and Academic Dean Eric Mitnick does not properly oversee the material being taught in classrooms or hold the Professor's strictly responsible for making sure the students learn the way material will be tested on the California Bar.