Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

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johnnyutah
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby johnnyutah » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:30 pm

phialphadelta wrote:Then there's TJSL's professors some who have not worked in the legal world for more than 3 years.

This is true of most schools, I think.

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mattviphky
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby mattviphky » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:00 pm

maybe the new dean changed the curriculum to something that didn't include bar prep. Many top schools don't include bar prep in the curriculum because they know their students' capabilities...many TTTT do teach the bar for the exact same reason.

Danteshek
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Danteshek » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:37 pm

Has the memo been published? Link please?

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Lawl Shcool » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:39 am

phialphadelta wrote:Just because TJSL has 15 people in a year who transfer out of the 550 students who chose to attend 1L year does not show that TJSL has not been attempting to keep it's students from transferring by having a lower GPA scale.

Ask any alumni of TJSL.

Further, having 2 torts 2 contracts in a year and then having a 33% bar passage rate shows that TJSL is just inefficient because neighboring tier 3 law schools only have 1 semester of each and are still having +70% CA bar passage rates.

Don't talk to me about attrition rates either because TJSL still kicks out the bottom 28% or so after 1L year just like Cal Western's 30% attrition rate.



the mean gpa at TJSL is 2.7


Lawl Shcool wrote:
phialphadelta wrote:*Also TJSL has the lowest average gpa of any ABA law school so that students can't transfer out.


Patently false - several people transferred out my 1L year, some to very good schools.

Also, what don't you like about the curriculum? To me it seems like they do everything they can to help people pass. 2 semesters of torts, Ks, civ pro, property, con law - so everything possibly covered on the bar should be encompassed and the remainder of bar classes are required for graduation. What more do you want them to do - take the test for you?


Ok, you clearly know nothing about how transferring works. GPA does not matter in the slightest, students are evaluated based on class rank - because every school has a different curve and GPA scheme and that is the only objective way to compare. TJSL is not a very highly regarded school (which is a shame because I really enjoyed it) so ~15 people each year transferring up is not surprising, in fact, if 15 people a year could make it into T1 schools I would consider it impressive. Transferring takes a lot of planning and work, it is not something that can be done over a weekend - which prevent a lot of people from being able to complete the apps on time and thus not transfer, not the GPA scheme.

Nobody is going to argue that the bar passage rate needs to be remedied. However, structurally the system they have in place is the best they could do without having bar bri teach the final year.

phialphadelta
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby phialphadelta » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:46 pm

Albeit it is true that they do it based on class ranking....


The top 30% is much larger at say Cal Western law school then it is at the Top 30% bracket for TJSL based on the way TJSL distributes the curve on a 4.3 gpa scale.


They obviously aren't doing a very good job with their structure since 67% of the Thomas jefferson school of law 2011 class couldn't pass the bar and even non-aba accredited schools in California have a 50% bar passage rate.

They have way too many professors who have never even taken/passed the CA Bar teaching CA bar subjects and having tenured Professor like Eniola Akinemowo who couldn't understand or teach contracts if her life depended on it. But Don't take my word for it ask the 160 students who have had her the last 2 years.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Lawl Shcool » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:13 pm

phialphadelta wrote:The top 30% is much larger at say Cal Western law school then it is at the Top 30% bracket for TJSL based on the way TJSL distributes the curve on a 4.3 gpa scale.


If TJ enrolls way more students, as you already said, how can a school with a smaller class have MORE people in the top 30%? Higher class size = more people in any % range, thats just how percentages work.

phialphadelta wrote:They obviously aren't doing a very good job with their structure since 67% of the Thomas jefferson school of law 2011 class couldn't pass the bar and even non-aba accredited schools in California have a 50% bar passage rate.

They have way too many professors who have never even taken/passed the CA Bar teaching CA bar subjects and having tenured Professor like Eniola Akinemowo who couldn't understand or teach contracts if her life depended on it. But Don't take my word for it ask the 160 students who have had her the last 2 years.


I would be shocked if law schools anywhere that had all people who passed the state bar teaching the bar courses. I can't even grasp how that would be relevant - bar topics are the same everywhere and professors have no reason to have an active license.

However, I have heard terrible things about Akinemowo's contracts class. She likely should not be teaching since it seems she has trouble just speaking English.

Chris Saunders
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Chris Saunders » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:21 pm

Contrary to speculation posted last week, Thomas Jefferson School of Law is in full compliance with ABA Standard 301(A), currently satisfying not one, but all three methods of compliance.

TJSL’s aggregate pass rate over the past 5 years (2006 – 2011) exceeds the Standard 301(A)(1)(a) requirement of a 75-percent pass rate. In four of the last five completed calendar years, TJSL graduates have passed a bar at a rate greater than 75%, satisfying Standard 301(A)(1)(b). Also, TJSL meets the compliance benchmark for Standard 301(A)(2) as three of the past five annual bar pass rates for first-time takers are no more than 15% lower than the aggregate ABA rate for each year.

TJSL’s out-of-state bar pass rate continues to be strong with a significant number of graduates choosing not to take the California bar exam.

In addition, the recent report issued by the ABA site evaluators that visited TJSL in March of this year was extraordinarily positive about the law school and its operations, as was the report from the AALS site team.

Chris Saunders, Thomas Jefferson School of Law Communications

Aqualibrium
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:28 pm

Wondering if TJSL looks better or worse after having a rep come online to defend their abysmal bar passage rate with the "we suck but we haven't sucked long enough to be in violation of any rules" argument....


WORSE

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:17 pm

A significant number of people attending Thomas Jefferson choose not to take the California bar? LOOOOL good fucking luck trying to find a job inside California coming from TJ, much less elsewhere. I'm willing to bet that the majority of those people aren't taking the bar because they're now working at Starbucks.

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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:19 pm

Hopefully this will lead to a fruitful discussion.

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northwood
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby northwood » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:21 pm

SchopenhauerFTW wrote:Hopefully this will lead to a fruitful discussion.


a fruitfull discussion about a school that is not within the top 14 on TLS?... dont get your hopes up

phialphadelta
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby phialphadelta » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:33 pm

2006-2011 is 6 years not 5. Go figure TJSL reps can't even do math properly.

Thomas Jefferson School of Law's Bar Passage rates:

1) 2006**70.30%
2) 2007**65.26%
3) 2008**75.08%
4) 2009- 48.15%
5) 2010- 55.93%
6) 2011- 33%

7)Feb+ July 2012- pretty much guaranteed to be under 50 %



Good luck maintaining Thomas Jefferson School of Law's "full compliance with ABA standard 301(A)

Chris Saunders wrote:Contrary to speculation posted last week, Thomas Jefferson School of Law is in full compliance with ABA Standard 301(A), currently satisfying not one, but all three methods of compliance.

TJSL’s aggregate pass rate over the past 5 years (2006 – 2011) exceeds the Standard 301(A)(1)(a) requirement of a 75-percent pass rate. In four of the last five completed calendar years, TJSL graduates have passed a bar at a rate greater than 75%, satisfying Standard 301(A)(1)(b). Also, TJSL meets the compliance benchmark for Standard 301(A)(2) as three of the past five annual bar pass rates for first-time takers are no more than 15% lower than the aggregate ABA rate for each year.

TJSL’s out-of-state bar pass rate continues to be strong with a significant number of graduates choosing not to take the California bar exam.

In addition, the recent report issued by the ABA site evaluators that visited TJSL in March of this year was extraordinarily positive about the law school and its operations, as was the report from the AALS site team.

Chris Saunders, Thomas Jefferson School of Law Communications
Last edited by phialphadelta on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:34 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:A significant number of people attending Thomas Jefferson choose not to take the California bar?

Yeah I just don't see a degree from TJ being very portable.

Edit: The market in California still sucks btw. I've met a lot of unemployed lawyers out here.

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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby harborleaguemvp » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:50 pm

Transferred to Boalt from TJ.

1) I would put several of my 1L professors up against any professor I have had at Boalt. Their resumes are equally as impressive (T-14, top of their class, clerked, Big Law, publications, Law Review, etc) and also far more willing to spend extra time with students to help them grasp a concept or two. As a side note, I think law school faculty nationwide have a surprisingly high rate of professors who have not practiced law.
2) TJ's curriculum was geared almost entirely to the bar. For better or worse, I never answered a single policy question until after arriving to Berzerkely. I believe they require completion of nearly all of the CA bar topics to graduate.
3) I would guess that close to 20/275 students wind-up transferring out of TJ. Any clown off the street could predict that TJ would have a low passage rate when 10, 15, 20% of the school's "top" students depart each year. The Packers would struggle too if Aaron Rodgers, Greg Jenkins, Jordy Nelson and Jermichael Finley all left at once. (I doubt many people on TLS will grasp this analogy).

-The lawsuit filed against TJ is obviously going to be a blackmark for the school for at least the near future. Its unfortunate TJ gets singled out even though 90%+ of law schools misrepresented employment statistics. It is a good school for those wanting to stay and practice at a non-BigLaw firm in San Diego (once again, not a large percentage of TLS'ers).

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:54 pm

SchopenhauerFTW wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:A significant number of people attending Thomas Jefferson choose not to take the California bar?

Yeah I just don't see a degree from TJ being very portable.

Edit: The market in California still sucks btw. I've met a lot of unemployed lawyers out here.

LOL seriously. And +1 on the CA market still sucking. I didn't know you lived out here though, cool!

phialphadelta
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby phialphadelta » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:11 pm

That's funny that you transferred to Boalt because last year I messaged Boalt's dean about transferring from Thomas Jefferson School of Law and he said you would have to be ranked number 1 in your entire class to have a "chance at transferring to Boalt" and no student has transferred from Thomas Jefferson School of Law before.

By the way, for your record Wills and Trusts, Community Property, CA Civil Procedure, CA evidence, CA Criminal Law are all tested on the CA Bar but not required as part of Thomas Jefferson School of Law's curriculum.

There are T-14 professors at every school. But Thomas Jefferson School of Law has a high number of lowly ranked Professors as well who went to non-aba accredited law schools and could not even sit for the CA Bar to take it, let alone pass it.

harborleaguemvp wrote:Transferred to Boalt from TJ.

1) I would put several of my 1L professors up against any professor I have had at Boalt. Their resumes are equally as impressive (T-14, top of their class, clerked, Big Law, publications, Law Review, etc) and also far more willing to spend extra time with students to help them grasp a concept or two. As a side note, I think law school faculty nationwide have a surprisingly high rate of professors who have not practiced law.
2) TJ's curriculum was geared almost entirely to the bar. For better or worse, I never answered a single policy question until after arriving to Berzerkely. I believe they require completion of nearly all of the CA bar topics to graduate.
3) I would guess that close to 20/275 students wind-up transferring out of TJ. Any clown off the street could predict that TJ would have a low passage rate when 10, 15, 20% of the school's "top" students depart each year. The Packers would struggle too if Aaron Rodgers, Greg Jenkins, Jordy Nelson and Jermichael Finley all left at once. (I doubt many people on TLS will grasp this analogy).

-The lawsuit filed against TJ is obviously going to be a blackmark for the school for at least the near future. Its unfortunate TJ gets singled out even though 90%+ of law schools misrepresented employment statistics. It is a good school for those wanting to stay and practice at a non-BigLaw firm in San Diego (once again, not a large percentage of TLS'ers).

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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Geist13 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:31 pm

Chris Saunders wrote:Contrary to speculation posted last week, Thomas Jefferson School of Law is in full compliance with ABA Standard 301(A), currently satisfying not one, but all three methods of compliance.

TJSL’s aggregate pass rate over the past 5 years (2006 – 2011) exceeds the Standard 301(A)(1)(a) requirement of a 75-percent pass rate. In four of the last five completed calendar years, TJSL graduates have passed a bar at a rate greater than 75%, satisfying Standard 301(A)(1)(b). Also, TJSL meets the compliance benchmark for Standard 301(A)(2) as three of the past five annual bar pass rates for first-time takers are no more than 15% lower than the aggregate ABA rate for each year.

TJSL’s out-of-state bar pass rate continues to be strong with a significant number of graduates choosing not to take the California bar exam.

In addition, the recent report issued by the ABA site evaluators that visited TJSL in March of this year was extraordinarily positive about the law school and its operations, as was the report from the AALS site team.

Chris Saunders, Thomas Jefferson School of Law Communications


Congratulations on meeting the bare minimum requirements! I wonder though: is the bare minimum making your graduates competitive in the job market?

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:32 pm

Don't blame the school. Blame the number of schools.

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Samara
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Samara » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:33 pm

harborleaguemvp wrote:Transferred to Boalt from TJ.

1) I would put several of my 1L professors up against any professor I have had at Boalt. Their resumes are equally as impressive (T-14, top of their class, clerked, Big Law, publications, Law Review, etc) and also far more willing to spend extra time with students to help them grasp a concept or two. As a side note, I think law school faculty nationwide have a surprisingly high rate of professors who have not practiced law.
2) TJ's curriculum was geared almost entirely to the bar. For better or worse, I never answered a single policy question until after arriving to Berzerkely. I believe they require completion of nearly all of the CA bar topics to graduate.
3) I would guess that close to 20/275 students wind-up transferring out of TJ. Any clown off the street could predict that TJ would have a low passage rate when 10, 15, 20% of the school's "top" students depart each year. The Packers would struggle too if Aaron Rodgers, Greg Jenkins, Jordy Nelson and Jermichael Finley all left at once. (I doubt many people on TLS will grasp this analogy).

-The lawsuit filed against TJ is obviously going to be a blackmark for the school for at least the near future. Its unfortunate TJ gets singled out even though 90%+ of law schools misrepresented employment statistics. It is a good school for those wanting to stay and practice at a non-BigLaw firm in San Diego (once again, not a large percentage of TLS'ers).

I lol'd.

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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby BlueDiamond » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:37 pm

Samara wrote:
harborleaguemvp wrote:Transferred to Boalt from TJ.

1) I would put several of my 1L professors up against any professor I have had at Boalt. Their resumes are equally as impressive (T-14, top of their class, clerked, Big Law, publications, Law Review, etc) and also far more willing to spend extra time with students to help them grasp a concept or two. As a side note, I think law school faculty nationwide have a surprisingly high rate of professors who have not practiced law.
2) TJ's curriculum was geared almost entirely to the bar. For better or worse, I never answered a single policy question until after arriving to Berzerkely. I believe they require completion of nearly all of the CA bar topics to graduate.
3) I would guess that close to 20/275 students wind-up transferring out of TJ. Any clown off the street could predict that TJ would have a low passage rate when 10, 15, 20% of the school's "top" students depart each year. The Packers would struggle too if Aaron Rodgers, Greg Jenkins, Jordy Nelson and Jermichael Finley all left at once. (I doubt many people on TLS will grasp this analogy).

-The lawsuit filed against TJ is obviously going to be a blackmark for the school for at least the near future. Its unfortunate TJ gets singled out even though 90%+ of law schools misrepresented employment statistics. It is a good school for those wanting to stay and practice at a non-BigLaw firm in San Diego (once again, not a large percentage of TLS'ers).

I lol'd.


the packers would too still be good.. theyd still have donald dryber and their kicker mason cosby is disgusting

indo
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby indo » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:38 pm

Students at TJSl are marginal students thats why they are attending that school.
If they are better students they will goto better schools.

Moultdog
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Moultdog » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:22 pm

All this TJ stuff is so funny to me. I'm a San Diegan, and for as long as I've known about it, TJ has seemed to be the "good local option" for law school. I never considered going there (I never wanted to be forced to live in SD by my degree, although imo it's the best city in the country), but I've known some very smart people who've gone there, and one in particular who has been VERY successful. I always thought it was a solid lower-tiered school until I started researching on TLS. I guess the people I know are exceptions

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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby phialphadelta » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:32 am

the 33% of TJSL alumni who do gone on to do well in small/solo practice settings, do so despite of Thomas Jefferson School of Law's mediocre teaching.

This is like when TJSL's chief counsel Jeff Joseph said that Anna Aluburda, the girl suing Thomas Jefferson School of Law, should give TJSL credit for helping her pass the bar on her first try without taking credit for the 57% of TJSL alumni that TJSL helped fail the bar on their first tries that same year.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Lawl Shcool » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:53 am

phialphadelta wrote:That's funny that you transferred to Boalt because last year I messaged Boalt's dean about transferring from Thomas Jefferson School of Law and he said you would have to be ranked number 1 in your entire class to have a "chance at transferring to Boalt" and no student has transferred from Thomas Jefferson School of Law before.


There are 2 TJ transfers graduating from Boalt this year - I am willing to bet that you are making up messaging Dean Tom since he is very aware that we are there since he called us to inform us we got in. You are gaining very little credibility making things up when trying to argue on here.

phialphadelta wrote:By the way, for your record Wills and Trusts, Community Property, CA Civil Procedure, CA evidence, CA Criminal Law are all tested on the CA Bar but not required as part of Thomas Jefferson School of Law's curriculum.


I stand corrected that not all CA bar topics are required, however, all are offered except "CA criminal law" which is not offerred because it is not a topic that is tested on the CA bar. Crim Law is a 1L class that everyone must take and is tested on the CA bar along with Crim Pro.

phialphadelta wrote:There are T-14 professors at every school. But Thomas Jefferson School of Law has a high number of lowly ranked Professors as well who went to non-aba accredited law schools and could not even sit for the CA Bar to take it, let alone pass it.


If you could post a link to any TJ prof who attended a non-aba accredited American law school I will stop posting in this thread. There are professors who attended international schools, just like every other law school in the country but that is hardly a bad thing.

You seem to be stuck on this notion that law professors need to have passed the CA bar to be considered knowledgeable enough to teach. I am not sure why you even think this is relevant. This semester at Boalt not a single one of my professors is licensed in CA. Passing the CA bar is hardly necessary to teach a law class. In fact, the worst professors I have had in law school are adjuncts who are practicing lawyers while the best have been non-practicing full-time professors.

Please define what a "lowly ranked professor" is.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Thomas jefferson school of law has 33% bar passage july 2011

Postby Lawl Shcool » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:15 am

.
Last edited by Lawl Shcool on Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.




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