Clerkships outside T14

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grtbooks91
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Clerkships outside T14

Postby grtbooks91 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:15 am

Can anyone speak to likelihood of placement into clerkships (particularly A3) for schools outside of the T14? I've seen the statistics and diagrams in the "Class of 2009 Employment Outcomes" thread, but I'm wondering if anyone has any anecdotal comments (Judge X frequently hires students from Y T30 school, etc.) or personal experience to add.

I'm shooting for the T14, but I'm wondering how much less and how different my hopes might be at a T20 or 25 school.

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ColtsFan88
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby ColtsFan88 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:54 am

I think Notre Dame does better than its ranking would suggest. Not positive though.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:01 am

ColtsFan88 wrote:I think Notre Dame does better than its ranking would suggest. Not positive though.

I would tend to agree with that.

Also, Irvine reported really high clerkship percentages

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SemperLegal
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby SemperLegal » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:24 am

Rutgers Camden claimed to come in only second to Yale in clerkships, presumably a function of legel protectionism in the state. It may follow that other states with strong flagship schools w/minimal instate private competion might place well (at least into state courts).

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:27 am

SemperLegal wrote:Rutgers Camden claimed to come in only second to Yale in clerkships, presumably a function of legel protectionism in the state. It may follow that other states with strong flagship schools w/minimal instate private competion might place well (at least into state courts).

I think OP is mainly talking about A3 clerk placement.

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grtbooks91
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby grtbooks91 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:31 am

Yeah, mostly A3, but the Rutgers thing is interesting, if one's interested in that.

Glad some people have mentioned ND, it's at the top of my list for schools outside the T14. I figured the name/network might contribute something in that regard, its good to hear that might be the case.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby FeelTheHeat » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:41 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:Rutgers Camden claimed to come in only second to Yale in clerkships, presumably a function of legel protectionism in the state. It may follow that other states with strong flagship schools w/minimal instate private competion might place well (at least into state courts).

I think OP is mainly talking about A3 clerk placement.


What other ones are there? Yes, I'm ignorant

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grtbooks91
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby grtbooks91 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:50 am

As I understand it, there are Federal courts (and judges) and State courts (and judges), and Federal courts are further broken down into Article III judges (who essentially serve for life) and their courts (Federal District, Circuit, and Supreme), and non-Article III (Tax, Magistrate, other things I don't know about).

As far as I know, Article III is considered the most prestigious of the three, with State courts and non-A3 Federal having a more complicated relationship to one another that depends on interests and geographical ties, amongst other things.

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SemperLegal
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby SemperLegal » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:52 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:Rutgers Camden claimed to come in only second to Yale in clerkships, presumably a function of legel protectionism in the state. It may follow that other states with strong flagship schools w/minimal instate private competion might place well (at least into state courts).

I think OP is mainly talking about A3 clerk placement.


RC was my worst section on the LSAT.

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ggocat
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby ggocat » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:53 am

I remember when I was deciding among schools that the University of Arizona placed a very high percentage of students in federal clerkships for its ranking; something like 6-7% of the class. Not sure if they still do given ITE and the increased competition.

Clerking at any court is usually a valuable experience. I'm at a state court clerking with students from T14 through fourth tier.

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thexfactor
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby thexfactor » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:21 am

how valuable are state appellate court clerkships?

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chem
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby chem » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:24 am

Vanderbilt does well, at least according to LST

Citizen Genet
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby Citizen Genet » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:52 pm

Vandy does very well; I would say T14 quality. They are focused on it quite a bit and have a good committee.

Notre Dame does well. BYU does well too, but with that comes the social restrictions (no drinking or sex).

Irvine did incredible with their first class; 11 Art III clerkships in a class of about 60. Whether they can continue that percentage is questionable.

Schools in the mid-west tend to feed into their circuits and districts well. IU-B for instance.

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ggocat
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby ggocat » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:52 am

thexfactor wrote:how valuable are state appellate court clerkships?

Depends how you measure value. Usually will not help you get biglaw, but it may help with small and mid-sized firms. Former co-clerk landed a small-ish firm gig making three figures with a billable requirement below 1600. Another co-clerk makes about the same at a larger firm but has a higher billable requirement.

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:I saw the Arizona data point last year and did not believe it, although I suppose it is possible that Arizona just does a good job with federal district court judges in AZ. Several other schools in recent years have reported incorrect Art. III placement numbers, usually by reporting their "all clerks" (state + federal non-Art. III + federal Art. III) number as their "Art. III clerks" number. I still suspect that's what Arizona did.

I'm not sure what the AZ number was last year, but I was talking about the class of 2005 when about 20% of the class clerked. The CSO showed me the list of their clerks, and I saw that about 1/3 were federal (mostly district and a few magistrate and bankruptcy).

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Opie
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby Opie » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:31 pm

Anyone have any info on Iowa? I'm not necessarily looking for A3, but one of my possible career goals is an ALJ position doing unemployment compensation appeals or something. I'm assuming clerking at the state level would be good for that.

Is the general consensus that if you want any shot at being a judge (except an elected one) you should probably have clerked?

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20160810
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby 20160810 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:22 am

I go to a (for now and for whatever this insipid distinction is worth) "T25" school, and will be clerking at the federal level next year. I'm also the only 3L I know who is doing this, so I wouldn't say that it's a very common option for folks at this level of schools. One thing to keep in mind is that I have pretty good grades and worked for a firm last summer, so clerking, probably anywhere and certainly not at schools in the T20-25 range, shouldn't be thought of as a "just in case OCI doesn't work out" kind of thing. If you don't have the grades for a firm job, you don't have much shot at a clerkship either.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:18 am

SBL wrote:I go to a (for now and for whatever this insipid distinction is worth) "T25" school, and will be clerking at the federal level next year. I'm also the only 3L I know who is doing this, so I wouldn't say that it's a very common option for folks at this level of schools. One thing to keep in mind is that I have pretty good grades and worked for a firm last summer, so clerking, probably anywhere and certainly not at schools in the T20-25 range, shouldn't be thought of as a "just in case OCI doesn't work out" kind of thing. If you don't have the grades for a firm job, you don't have much shot at a clerkship either.

I've thought that a schools A3 + biglaw percentage was a decent measure of the schools prospects for high level employment, since clerks (especially fed clerks) are usually those that could have gotten biglaw otherwise

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20160810
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby 20160810 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:00 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
SBL wrote:I go to a (for now and for whatever this insipid distinction is worth) "T25" school, and will be clerking at the federal level next year. I'm also the only 3L I know who is doing this, so I wouldn't say that it's a very common option for folks at this level of schools. One thing to keep in mind is that I have pretty good grades and worked for a firm last summer, so clerking, probably anywhere and certainly not at schools in the T20-25 range, shouldn't be thought of as a "just in case OCI doesn't work out" kind of thing. If you don't have the grades for a firm job, you don't have much shot at a clerkship either.

I've thought that a schools A3 + biglaw percentage was a decent measure of the schools prospects for high level employment, since clerks (especially fed clerks) are usually those that could have gotten biglaw otherwise

I feel like a dumbass here, but what is A3?

American_in_China
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby American_in_China » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:35 am

Irvine and Vandy, from what I can tell. Wash U seems to be ok, but not really unexpectedly good. ND definitely is.

Otherwise, I'd bet any school near a remote circuit. There's got to be a couple schools in the midwest and the south that place a little high because there are fewer high level schools around.

BeenDidThat
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby BeenDidThat » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:50 am

SBL wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
SBL wrote:I go to a (for now and for whatever this insipid distinction is worth) "T25" school, and will be clerking at the federal level next year. I'm also the only 3L I know who is doing this, so I wouldn't say that it's a very common option for folks at this level of schools. One thing to keep in mind is that I have pretty good grades and worked for a firm last summer, so clerking, probably anywhere and certainly not at schools in the T20-25 range, shouldn't be thought of as a "just in case OCI doesn't work out" kind of thing. If you don't have the grades for a firm job, you don't have much shot at a clerkship either.

I've thought that a schools A3 + biglaw percentage was a decent measure of the schools prospects for high level employment, since clerks (especially fed clerks) are usually those that could have gotten biglaw otherwise

I feel like a dumbass here, but what is A3?


Article III of the Constitution.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby dextermorgan » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:59 am

Clarence Thomas frequently hires students from BYU.

You wanted anecdotal.

Kretzy
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby Kretzy » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:16 am

dextermorgan wrote:Clarence Thomas frequently hires students from BYU.

You wanted anecdotal.


Clarence Thomas has hired 2 clerks from BYU in his 20 years on the Court. He's also hired 2 clerks each from Kansas and George Washington during that same time period. In the same period, he's hired a clerk from George Mason, Utah, Creighton, Georgia, Rutgers, and UNC.

Justice Thomas "frequently" hires HLS, Yale, and Chicago clerks. Over the past 20 years, he's actually only hired 1 Stanford grad, Brendan Cullen ('95), putting SLS behind KU and GW as well.

You should look up what "frequent" means before you provide such important anecdotes.

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20160810
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby 20160810 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:59 am

I wouldn't look at SCOTUS clerk hiring as having anything to do with the school outside the T14. If a kid from, say, Kansas, gets hired as a SCOTUS clerk, it has nothing to do with KU Law "outperforming" and everything to do with that kid being insanely amazing in a way that probably can't be replicated.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby dextermorgan » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:28 pm

Kretzy wrote:
dextermorgan wrote:Clarence Thomas frequently hires students from BYU.

You wanted anecdotal.


Clarence Thomas has hired 2 clerks from BYU in his 20 years on the Court. He's also hired 2 clerks each from Kansas and George Washington during that same time period. In the same period, he's hired a clerk from George Mason, Utah, Creighton, Georgia, Rutgers, and UNC.

Justice Thomas "frequently" hires HLS, Yale, and Chicago clerks. Over the past 20 years, he's actually only hired 1 Stanford grad, Brendan Cullen ('95), putting SLS behind KU and GW as well.

You should look up what "frequent" means before you provide such important anecdotes.

Lol, did you find a dead rat in your cereal or something?

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JDizzle2015
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Re: Clerkships outside T14

Postby JDizzle2015 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:25 pm

SBL wrote:I wouldn't look at SCOTUS clerk hiring as having anything to do with the school outside the T14. If a kid from, say, Kansas, gets hired as a SCOTUS clerk, it has nothing to do with KU Law "outperforming" and everything to do with that kid being insanely amazing in a way that probably can't be replicated.

I would agree with this.

However, A3 doesn't have to be SCOTUS. grtbooks91 gave a fairly accurate description of A3 clerks:

grtbooks91 wrote:As I understand it, there are Federal courts (and judges) and State courts (and judges), and Federal courts are further broken down into Article III judges (who essentially serve for life) and their courts (Federal District, Circuit, and Supreme), and non-Article III (Tax, Magistrate, other things I don't know about).

As far as I know, Article III is considered the most prestigious of the three, with State courts and non-A3 Federal having a more complicated relationship to one another that depends on interests and geographical ties, amongst other things.

Many people who get federal A3 clerkships (non-SCOTUS) are aided by the strengths/connections of their law school in addition to being personally amazing in many ways.




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