gap between HYS and CCN

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
TaipeiMort
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:51 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:56 am

Hawkeye Pierce wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Grizz wrote:When I think Leiter, I think this gem (LinkRemoved)



:shock:

Can someone explain tl;dr to me Leiter's whole thing? I know he does his own law school rankings based on things like clerkship placement and citations per prof or whatever, but that's about it


He's a gigantic Chicago troll and takes selective data to make Chicago look better than it really is. And this is one reason why the egregious Chicago trolls like Taipei love linking to his stuff.


I'm not a fan of leiter rankings. I just like schools that place almost all of their students and dont have a diluted faculty. I guess we could ignore empirical evidence and instead assume a school is great because of its carried lay prestige and alumni base instead.

User avatar
Hawkeye Pierce
Posts: 1261
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:18 am

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:57 am

TaipeiMort wrote:I'm not a fan of leiter rankings. I just like schools that place almost all of their students and dont have a diluted faculty. I guess we could ignore empirical evidence and instead assume a school is great because of its carried lay prestige and alumni base instead.


The problem is you're the one ignoring empirical evidence.

User avatar
ahduth
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:55 am

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ahduth » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:17 am

TaipeiMort wrote:a diluted faculty


Please expand and elaborate.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby rayiner » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:20 am

ahduth wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:a diluted faculty


Please expand and elaborate.


I'll come out and say it: U Chicago's law and economics shtick is so last-century it's not even funny. Now that we know neo-classical economics is basically just a bunch of gibberish, what latent academic prestige Chicago had will be quickly wiped away by the rise of behavioral law and economics.

chasgoose
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby chasgoose » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:49 am

TaipeiMort wrote:I'm not a fan of leiter rankings. I just like schools that place almost all of their students and dont have a diluted faculty. I guess we could ignore empirical evidence and instead assume a school is great because of its carried lay prestige and alumni base instead.


First, it sounds like someone is butthurt he didn't get into a more impressive name-brand law school (admittedly whenever Chicago or NYU people talk about how "lay prestige" isn't the only important consideration I jump to that conclusion).

Seriously, though your argument simply isn't true. Explain to me how other T6 law schools have a diluted faculty? Yes Chicago's better than HLS and CLS, but shockingly its student-faculty ratio is pretty much even with NYUs and not as good as YLS or SLS which are comparably sized. Also, Chicago places no more students proportionally than the rest of the T6. It's a myth that employers go deeper into the class that isn't borne out by the statistics. Yes there are more people at NYU/CLS/HLS who will be shut out of biglaw and prestigious clerkships (at CLS/NYU anyways) but that is simply an effect of the size of the class. Your CHANCES of getting shut out are still the same because the percentages of those who get hired are pretty equal (and are definitely better at HLS). Since law school grading (1L anyways) is entirely curve-based and proportional as well, from a student's perspective it shouldn't matter how big the class size is because the odds of getting the grades required for a specific job are probably even from place to place. Finally, Chicago's clerkship #'s are not as great as its fans want us to believe, especially when a relatively high # of professors (in the vaunted undiluted faculty) are Art III judges.

Don't get me wrong, Chicago is a great place (although based on some posts here, it might be failing at teaching its students basic logic skills) but it's never going to be YHS. There is always going to be a bigger prestige gap between YHS and CCN than there is among CCN.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:22 am

ITT people who couldn't get into Harvard display their bitterness and ignorance of how it is actually like being here

i.e., mischaracterizations of the grading system here and how it affects OCI and the "pleasantness" of studying law at HLS

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:26 am

JamMasterJ wrote:only based on the general stigma I've heard from others on this site, but basically, getting a Harvard Law degree isn't the most pleasant experience


that's weird, because i got the exact opposite sentiment and virtually everyone i know agrees with me. maybe that has to do with our class yr (better economy) or maybe it has to do with HLS' class size (and a larger proportion of HLS students being on TLS) so that the same % of whiners are over-represented on here. maybe a combination of both since the handful that weren't happy at HLS that posted on TLS seemed to all be in the yrs above me.

it could even have to do with the disproportionate amount of people at HLS that may feel entitled to something more (i know someone who was upset at the end of 1L yr that he was top 30%...he said he'd never been only top 30% before in his life lol). nothing wrong with that, just pointing out a possible difference in expectations too.

User avatar
ph14
Posts: 3224
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:32 am

DoubleChecks wrote: i.e., mischaracterizations of the grading system here and how it affects OCI and the "pleasantness" of studying law at HLS


+1

User avatar
ph14
Posts: 3224
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:34 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:only based on the general stigma I've heard from others on this site, but basically, getting a Harvard Law degree isn't the most pleasant experience


that's weird, because i got the exact opposite sentiment and virtually everyone i know agrees with me.


+2.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby IAFG » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:36 am

ph14 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote: i.e., mischaracterizations of the grading system here and how it affects OCI and the "pleasantness" of studying law at HLS


+1

How does it get mischaracterized?

User avatar
ph14
Posts: 3224
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:43 am

IAFG wrote:
ph14 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote: i.e., mischaracterizations of the grading system here and how it affects OCI and the "pleasantness" of studying law at HLS


+1

How does it get mischaracterized?


JamMasterJ wrote:only based on the general stigma I've heard from others on this site, but basically, getting a Harvard Law degree isn't the most pleasant experience


While law school in general, at any school, isn't the most pleasant experience, HLS isn't an especially unpleasant experience at all. The grading system and job prospects take some pressure off, and it's in a great location. The grading system, while not as good as YLS or SLS, is an improvement-- students don't have to worry about pluses or minuses, or worry that one bad class is going to tank them, which eliminates some stress.

It's not like The Paper Chase or One L anymore.
Last edited by ph14 on Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:46 am

IAFG wrote:
ph14 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote: i.e., mischaracterizations of the grading system here and how it affects OCI and the "pleasantness" of studying law at HLS


+1

How does it get mischaracterized?


Well, I am mostly just speaking of how it was characterized in this thread. It isn't that bad really...in fact, it is awesome imo lol. Not as amazing as YLS', but pretty similar to SLS'.

37% get Hs during 1L classes (later on, more classes that don't follow the curve and give more H's), rest get Ps. Usually a couple get DS too in a class (Dean's Scholars). LPs are discretionary now and very few professors give the full 8%. In fact, I would say most either do not give it or only give out a handful per class (and those who got it [or the ones I heard of that got it] all knew they would, i.e. did not finish exam for one reason or another]). The grading system has made it (or maybe it was always like this?) decently non-competitive. HLS students still want the H, but I have not met anyone cutthroat or unwilling to help. My section mates were all helpful and nice (though I did hear there was 1 section known as the gunner section /shrugs lol). From what I've seen, the grading system makes everyone much more chill, and my own personal experience has been great (though I know some people who worked pretty hard 1L yr, but I don't think that was due to a necessity per se).

But of course the important part is how it affects OCI. This I feel pretty strongly about because, while anecdotal, I have talked to a lot of my peers about this. The grades don't seem to affect your chances much at all at most firms. The really prestigious/picky firms (ex: Wachtell, W&C, etc.) have sort of grade cutoffs or want to see great grades...and if you are on the other extreme, I imagine your chances would be worse (multiple LPs...I personally haven't even heard of a person with multiple LPs in my yr, but I can imagine some exist?)...but besides that, grades seem to not matter, even with V10s. Below median and above median and median all got the same, better, worse, varying biglaw jobs. If anything, interviewing skills and smart bidding seemed to be the rule of the game. I know of below median students that did the BEST out of everyone (ridiculous # of cbs) because of their interviewing prowess.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:47 am

ph14 wrote:While law school in general, at any school, isn't the most pleasant experience, HLS isn't an especially unpleasant experience at all. The grading system and job prospects take some pressure off, and it's in a great location.


+1 to all but the bolded. I don't much like it here in cold ass, cramped, expensive Boston :P But that may just be a NE thing and my own personal bias haha.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby IAFG » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:52 am

Well I that is your clarification I think TLS doesn't mischaracterize it, but I think the change in policy regarding LPs might still be a misconception around here.

The truth is that median at HLS will generally get you similar firms as median at CLS and NYU, barring game-changing WE or something along those lines. For people at the extremes of and class, various T14s might lead to different outcomes, but for most people in the middle somewhere, the schools are surprisingly equivalent. Median people at MVP and Harvard are plenty likely to find themselves at the same firm.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:05 am

IAFG wrote:Well I that is your clarification I think TLS doesn't mischaracterize it, but I think the change in policy regarding LPs might still be a misconception around here.

The truth is that median at HLS will generally get you similar firms as median at CLS and NYU, barring game-changing WE or something along those lines. For people at the extremes of and class, various T14s might lead to different outcomes, but for most people in the middle somewhere, the schools are surprisingly equivalent. Median people at MVP and Harvard are plenty likely to find themselves at the same firm.


I did clarify that my comments were directed more toward how it was characterized in this thread rather than TLS in general. And while I appreciate your uncanny ability to sniff out "the truth" of the matter for us, I actually just don't know how well median at CCN relative to median at HLS will do in terms of netting most firm jobs. Probably decently similar.

Personally, I can't imagine I would have had as chill of a 1L yr at CCN w/ traditional grades. Basic competency nets you a P; nowadays, LPs seem kinda hard to get and more a function of bad luck than anything else (or some personal reason...some reason where you don't complete the exam; I know of someone who was out all semester sick and just studied a few days before the exam off of notes and outlines she got and did not get LP lol).

And keep in mind, I also mentioned below median did just as well as above median here (how much below median I cannot say, though I assume not bottom 10% -- I don't know how bottom 10% did). So while it is probably true that median at MVP and Harvard may very well find themselves in the same firm, I don't think below median would, i.e. firms hire deeper into HLS' class.

User avatar
funkyturds
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:32 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby funkyturds » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:22 am

rayiner wrote:
ahduth wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:a diluted faculty


Please expand and elaborate.


I'll come out and say it: U Chicago's law and economics shtick is so last-century it's not even funny. Now that we know neo-classical economics is basically just a bunch of gibberish, what latent academic prestige Chicago had will be quickly wiped away by the rise of behavioral law and economics.


massive anti-Chicago trolling...you assume the rise of behavioral law and economics is going to wipe away Chicago's academic prestige even though we've got guys like Thaler here? :?

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:24 am

funkyturds wrote:massive anti-Chicago trolling...you assume the rise of behavioral law and economics is going to wipe away Chicago's academic prestige even though we've got guys like Thaler here? :?


i think he was just trying to balance out the massive Chicago trolling going on in this thread :P

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby IAFG » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:26 am

@DoubleChecks: sounds like I mostly agree with you. I suspect the middle half at CCN and H are having similar experiences and outcomes, and outside of that, differences start to emerge.

User avatar
funkyturds
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:32 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby funkyturds » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:39 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
funkyturds wrote:massive anti-Chicago trolling...you assume the rise of behavioral law and economics is going to wipe away Chicago's academic prestige even though we've got guys like Thaler here? :?


i think he was just trying to balance out the massive Chicago trolling going on in this thread :P


To clarify, I don't want to be a part of any of that.

I usually find rayiner's posts to be spot on...swing and a miss here though.

User avatar
Bildungsroman
Posts: 5548
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Bildungsroman » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:45 am

DoubleChecks wrote:Personally, I can't imagine I would have had as chill of a 1L yr at CCN w/ traditional grades.

I guess CCN student bodies are mostly comprised of people who are mature enough to handle real grades.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:47 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:Personally, I can't imagine I would have had as chill of a 1L yr at CCN w/ traditional grades.

I guess CCN student bodies are mostly comprised of people who are mature enough to handle real grades.


Obviously TCR. I mean, we have you as a shining example right here.

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Grizz » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:47 am

funkyturds wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
funkyturds wrote:massive anti-Chicago trolling...you assume the rise of behavioral law and economics is going to wipe away Chicago's academic prestige even though we've got guys like Thaler here? :?


i think he was just trying to balance out the massive Chicago trolling going on in this thread :P


To clarify, I don't want to be a part of any of that.

I usually find rayiner's posts to be spot on...swing and a miss here though.

Did you ever write that PS/DS about your fursona?

User avatar
funkyturds
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:32 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby funkyturds » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:53 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:Personally, I can't imagine I would have had as chill of a 1L yr at CCN w/ traditional grades.

I guess CCN student bodies are mostly comprised of people who are mature enough to handle real grades.


as shown by that mature post. :roll:

also, you're a 1L with two exams this fall... revisit your post after having gone through the hell of spring quarter at UChicago.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby rayiner » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:54 am

funkyturds wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ahduth wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:a diluted faculty


Please expand and elaborate.


I'll come out and say it: U Chicago's law and economics shtick is so last-century it's not even funny. Now that we know neo-classical economics is basically just a bunch of gibberish, what latent academic prestige Chicago had will be quickly wiped away by the rise of behavioral law and economics.


massive anti-Chicago trolling...you assume the rise of behavioral law and economics is going to wipe away Chicago's academic prestige even though we've got guys like Thaler here? :?


So in the 1960s, prior to the rise of the law and economics movement, you probably would've listed the top 5 schools as Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford and Michigan, with Chicago just outside that group. Law and economics made U Chicago a legitimate competitor with Harvard and Yale, but that movement is on its way out.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby IAFG » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:55 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:Personally, I can't imagine I would have had as chill of a 1L yr at CCN w/ traditional grades.

I guess CCN student bodies are mostly comprised of people who are mature enough to handle real grades.

I guess UChi's grade scheme requires some sort of super-maturity then?




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests