gap between HYS and CCN

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booasa
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby booasa » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:27 pm

booasa wrote:
rayiner wrote:It depends. For NYC big law, the gap between H and CLS/NYU is probably not huge, although the rarity of YLS and SLS grads still insulates the bottom of their class, relative to CLS/NYU where a significant number of people get a big firm job.

For some "snobby" jobs, however, there is a real gap between HYS and CCN. Williams and Connolly has 48 attorneys from HLS, and 9 from Columbia. At Covington DC, it's almost 100 attorneys from HLS and 19 from Columbia. I did OCI in DC, and it was quite clear that T14 was the minimum requirement to play the game, CCN, except maybe Chicago, wasn't considered in a different league, but HYS were considered legitimately prestigious.

LawClerkAddict used to track some good data: http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/

For 2008, the top appellate judges hired:

"The Dozen Most Prestigious Federal Appellate Judges:
Boudin: Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, Yale
Calabresi: Cornell, Harvard, NYU, Yale
Easterbrook: Chicago, Harvard
Garland: Harvard, Harvard, Michigan, Yale
Kozinski: Chicago, Harvard, Northwestern, Tulane
O'Scannlain: Cornell, Virginia, Yale, Yale
Posner: Chicago, Harvard, NYU
Reinhardt: Columbia, Harvard, UCLA, Yale
Sentelle: Duke, Harvard, Harvard
Tatel: Duke, Georgetown, Stanford
Wilkinson: Northwestern, Stanford, Virginia, Virginia
S. Williams (Sr.): Berkeley, Chicago, Yale"

That's 12 Harvard, 7 Yale, 1 Columbia.

And 3 for Chicago which is 1/3 or less the size of Harvard and 1/2 or less the size of CLS

Oops 4 for Chicago. I ain't so good at maths. Actually this puts Chicago ( in this very small sample) after adjusting for class size equal to Harvard and way ahead of Stanford in this particular competition

thederangedwang
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby thederangedwang » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:38 pm

leiter rankings support this

in terms of clerkship placement based on % of total students, it's Yale Harvard Chicago in one subtier...indeed, thats why he gives chicago 2nd place in his rankings (and a lot of people think his rankings r more accurate than us news)

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rayiner
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby rayiner » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:09 am

ahduth wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:
minnesotamike wrote:If you want a clerkship, this post illustrates the chasm that exists between HYS and CCN (at least during 2009-2010).

Wow.

http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/2008/09/percentage-of-clerks-by-school.html


Just to clarify -- those are #s for Circuit clerkships only.


Sweet site - spring for this one though: --LinkRemoved--


The latest ones aren't as complete and comprehensive as the early ones.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:37 am

ahduth wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:This might be my 0L noob status but it seems like the grading system would be way better at HYS too. Chicago's system stresses me out even now. Am I crazy or is this somewhat correct?

You would not like Harvard


Once again, care to clarify? Is this because the grading system is tough or because my comment made me seem a little gunnner/aspie? It's just been my impression that the Pass/Honors system makes it easy to distinguish the very top of the class but not anywhere below that. While other school's grading, especially U Chi's point system, would be a little tougher.


I think he's just insinuating that people at Harvard are dicks.

only based on the general stigma I've heard from others on this site, but basically, getting a Harvard Law degree isn't the most pleasant experience

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ph14
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:39 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
ahduth wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:You would not like Harvard


Once again, care to clarify? Is this because the grading system is tough or because my comment made me seem a little gunnner/aspie? It's just been my impression that the Pass/Honors system makes it easy to distinguish the very top of the class but not anywhere below that. While other school's grading, especially U Chi's point system, would be a little tougher.


I think he's just insinuating that people at Harvard are dicks.

only based on the general stigma I've heard from others on this site, but basically, getting a Harvard Law degree isn't the most pleasant experience


Well, i'm just glad your opinion was well-reasoned and thoughtful.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:40 am

ph14 wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
ahduth wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Once again, care to clarify? Is this because the grading system is tough or because my comment made me seem a little gunnner/aspie? It's just been my impression that the Pass/Honors system makes it easy to distinguish the very top of the class but not anywhere below that. While other school's grading, especially U Chi's point system, would be a little tougher.


I think he's just insinuating that people at Harvard are dicks.

only based on the general stigma I've heard from others on this site, but basically, getting a Harvard Law degree isn't the most pleasant experience


Well, i'm just glad your opinion was well-reasoned and thoughtful.

:roll: IIRC, this has been echoed by several HLS students. It's not meant as an insult if that's what your concern is over
Last edited by JamMasterJ on Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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soj
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby soj » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:41 am

I don't know which to lol at more: the Leiter rankings or the insecure trolling. I pretty much trust only posters like rayiner when it comes to employment prospects.

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ph14
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:42 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
ph14 wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
ahduth wrote:
I think he's just insinuating that people at Harvard are dicks.

only based on the general stigma I've heard from others on this site, but basically, getting a Harvard Law degree isn't the most pleasant experience


Well, i'm just glad your opinion was well-reasoned and thoughtful.

:roll:


So insightful.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby TaipeiMort » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:54 am

booasa wrote:
booasa wrote:
rayiner wrote:It depends. For NYC big law, the gap between H and CLS/NYU is probably not huge, although the rarity of YLS and SLS grads still insulates the bottom of their class, relative to CLS/NYU where a significant number of people get a big firm job.

For some "snobby" jobs, however, there is a real gap between HYS and CCN. Williams and Connolly has 48 attorneys from HLS, and 9 from Columbia. At Covington DC, it's almost 100 attorneys from HLS and 19 from Columbia. I did OCI in DC, and it was quite clear that T14 was the minimum requirement to play the game, CCN, except maybe Chicago, wasn't considered in a different league, but HYS were considered legitimately prestigious.

LawClerkAddict used to track some good data: http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/

For 2008, the top appellate judges hired:

"The Dozen Most Prestigious Federal Appellate Judges:
Boudin: Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, Yale
Calabresi: Cornell, Harvard, NYU, Yale
Easterbrook: Chicago, Harvard
Garland: Harvard, Harvard, Michigan, Yale
Kozinski: Chicago, Harvard, Northwestern, Tulane
O'Scannlain: Cornell, Virginia, Yale, Yale
Posner: Chicago, Harvard, NYU
Reinhardt: Columbia, Harvard, UCLA, Yale
Sentelle: Duke, Harvard, Harvard
Tatel: Duke, Georgetown, Stanford
Wilkinson: Northwestern, Stanford, Virginia, Virginia
S. Williams (Sr.): Berkeley, Chicago, Yale"

That's 12 Harvard, 7 Yale, 1 Columbia.

And 3 for Chicago which is 1/3 or less the size of Harvard and 1/2 or less the size of CLS

Oops 4 for Chicago. I ain't so good at maths. Actually this puts Chicago ( in this very small sample) after adjusting for class size equal to Harvard and way ahead of Stanford in this particular competition


Yeah, but with Harvard you can do ANYTHING with your degree! You can be President or on the TV show "Survivor." At Chicago you can only practice law-- who cares if Chicago boasts better clerkship or job placement or ultimate job success? Besides, everyone knows Stanford and Harvard-- do you really want to go somewhere that your family and friends wont know?!?

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:57 am

TaipeiMort wrote:Yeah, but with Harvard you can do ANYTHING with your degree! You can be President or on the TV show "Survivor." At Chicago you can only practice law-- who cares if Chicago boasts better clerkship or job placement or ultimate job success? Besides, everyone knows Stanford and Harvard-- do you really want to go somewhere that your family and friends wont know?!?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149333&p=4122116&hilit=clerkship#p4122116

Sweet A3 placement, brah!

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IAFG
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby IAFG » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:03 am

This UChi trolling is truly disgusting. Thanks, Earls, for restoring some sanity.

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Veyron
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Veyron » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:06 am

Resolved: Chicago trolls are the most insufferable trolls.

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:07 am

IAFG wrote:This UChi trolling is truly disgusting. Thanks, Earls, for restoring some sanity.


+

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IAFG
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby IAFG » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:15 am

Veyron wrote:Resolved: Chicago trolls are the most insufferable trolls.

Their rigor-addled brains leave them socially maladjusted.

mrloblaw
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby mrloblaw » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:19 am

IAFG wrote:
Veyron wrote:Resolved: Chicago trolls are the most insufferable trolls.

Their rigor-addled brains leave them socially maladjusted.


I always thought it was the psychological effects of knowing that, at some point, you're going to get shot within twenty feet of the law building. I mean, seriously, WTF Hyde Park?

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Bildungsroman
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Bildungsroman » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:25 am

IAFG wrote:
Veyron wrote:Resolved: Chicago trolls are the most insufferable trolls.

Their rigor-addled brains leave them socially maladjusted.

You're crazy. I'm not rigorous at all and I'm still plenty maladjusted.

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Grizz
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Grizz » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:32 am

Veyron wrote:Resolved: Chicago trolls are the most insufferable trolls.

More insufferable than THE VEYRON?

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IAFG
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby IAFG » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:44 am

Bildungsroman wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Veyron wrote:Resolved: Chicago trolls are the most insufferable trolls.

Their rigor-addled brains leave them socially maladjusted.

You're crazy. I'm not rigorous at all and I'm still plenty maladjusted.

You haven't even been through an exam period, my child.

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Grizz
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Grizz » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:47 am

When I think Leiter, I think this gem (LinkRemoved)

run26.2
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby run26.2 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:57 am

Take this for whatever it's worth. Passage rates for the California bar, which I'm subjectively calling a hard test and a somewhat objective proxy for some kind of legal aptitude, by school. Sorry the formatting is a mess.

Total Taken Total Passed % for last 5 years
Stanford 468 442 0.944444444
Yale 168 157 0.93452381
Harvard 464 428 0.922413793
UVA 159 146 0.918238994
Columbia 252 230 0.912698413
NYU 283 258 0.911660777
Chicago 144 128 0.888888889
Berkeley 1105 974 0.881447964
Umich 260 222 0.853846154
Penn 147 125 0.850340136
Duke 137 115 0.839416058
UT 155 128 0.825806452
GULC 378 305 0.806878307
NU 158 126 0.797468354
Cornell 95 74 0.778947368

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Lawquacious
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:14 am

Grizz wrote:When I think Leiter, I think this gem (LinkRemoved)



:shock:

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JamMasterJ
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:34 am

Lawquacious wrote:
Grizz wrote:When I think Leiter, I think this gem (LinkRemoved)



:shock:

Can someone explain tl;dr to me Leiter's whole thing? I know he does his own law school rankings based on things like clerkship placement and citations per prof or whatever, but that's about it

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:45 am

JamMasterJ wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Grizz wrote:When I think Leiter, I think this gem (LinkRemoved)



:shock:

Can someone explain tl;dr to me Leiter's whole thing? I know he does his own law school rankings based on things like clerkship placement and citations per prof or whatever, but that's about it


He's a gigantic Chicago troll and takes selective data to make Chicago look better than it really is. And this is one reason why the egregious Chicago trolls like Taipei love linking to his stuff.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:48 am

Hawkeye Pierce wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Grizz wrote:When I think Leiter, I think this gem (LinkRemoved)



:shock:

Can someone explain tl;dr to me Leiter's whole thing? I know he does his own law school rankings based on things like clerkship placement and citations per prof or whatever, but that's about it


He's a gigantic Chicago troll and takes selective data to make Chicago look better than it really is. And this is one reason why the egregious Chicago trolls like Taipei love linking to his stuff.

thanks, I had heard similar rumblings but wasn't sure. What do you mean by selective data? Do you have links to any examples?

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:55 am

JamMasterJ wrote:thanks, I had heard similar rumblings but wasn't sure. What do you mean by selective data? Do you have links to any examples?


FlightoftheEarls had a good post about academia placement numbers, e.g.:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150721&p=4188514&hilit=academia#p4188514




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