gap between HYS and CCN

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ph14
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:32 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:This might be my 0L noob status but it seems like the grading system would be way better at HYS too. Chicago's system stresses me out even now. Am I crazy or is this somewhat correct?

You would not like Harvard


Once again, care to clarify? Is this because the grading system is tough or because my comment made me seem a little gunnner/aspie? It's just been my impression that the Pass/Honors system makes it easy to distinguish the very top of the class but not anywhere below that. While other school's grading, especially U Chi's point system, would be a little tougher.

just cause the people at Harvard are supergunnery and the place is not the greatest WRT QOL


And what makes you say that? :roll:

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BruceWayne
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:35 pm

If your goals are those most often discussed on TLS (landing a law firm job at the highest vault ranked firm in NYC) then the gap isn't that big (in the case of Columbia I wonder if there's a gap at all v. Harvard). If your goal consists of almost anything else the gap is larger than any other gap within the top 14 (DOJ work, SEC work, working in a firm outside of NYC, etc.). There's a big affinity for CCN on this website over any other school grouping--my guess is it's because those are the highest ranked schools that a lot of people on here routinely get into. You can guarantee yourself a spot at one of these 3 with certain numerical stats; you can't do that with HYS (especially not Yale and Stanford).

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Bildungsroman
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:37 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:This might be my 0L noob status but it seems like the grading system would be way better at HYS too. Chicago's system stresses me out even now. Am I crazy or is this somewhat correct?

You would not like Harvard


Once again, care to clarify? Is this because the grading system is tough or because my comment made me seem a little gunnner/aspie? It's just been my impression that the Pass/Honors system makes it easy to distinguish the very top of the class but not anywhere below that. While other school's grading, especially U Chi's point system, would be a little tougher.

Harvard keeps trying to hide the ball with its constant changes to its grading scale, but their newest system just renames the letter grades. Employers won't be fooled.

And LOL at the idea that you can't guarantee yourself a spot in Harvard's class just through numbers. That diploma mill has made its standards very clear.

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Veyron
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Veyron » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:37 pm

kaiser wrote:The gap between HYS and CCN isn't all that big. Does a gap exist? Yes. No one argues that HYS isn't the most elite tier, and on a level of its own. But don't kid yourself into thinking that CCN are that far off. I know a bunch of kids who got into HYS but decided on CCN with $$, as well as many lawyers from CCN who work at firms right alongside HYS grads.


Protip, a bunch of Fordham grads work at firms right alongside HYS grads.

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ph14
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:41 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:This might be my 0L noob status but it seems like the grading system would be way better at HYS too. Chicago's system stresses me out even now. Am I crazy or is this somewhat correct?

You would not like Harvard


Once again, care to clarify? Is this because the grading system is tough or because my comment made me seem a little gunnner/aspie? It's just been my impression that the Pass/Honors system makes it easy to distinguish the very top of the class but not anywhere below that. While other school's grading, especially U Chi's point system, would be a little tougher.

Harvard keeps trying to hide the ball with its constant changes to its grading scale, but their newest system just renames the letter grades. Employers won't be fooled.

And LOL at the idea that you can't guarantee yourself a spot in Harvard's class just through numbers. That diploma mill has made its standards very clear.


I don't think 37% of the class was getting As before. It's definitely not as good as Yale or Stanford's, but I think it's an improvement.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:42 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:This might be my 0L noob status but it seems like the grading system would be way better at HYS too. Chicago's system stresses me out even now. Am I crazy or is this somewhat correct?

You would not like Harvard


Once again, care to clarify? Is this because the grading system is tough or because my comment made me seem a little gunnner/aspie? It's just been my impression that the Pass/Honors system makes it easy to distinguish the very top of the class but not anywhere below that. While other school's grading, especially U Chi's point system, would be a little tougher.

Harvard keeps trying to hide the ball with its constant changes to its grading scale, but their newest system just renames the letter grades. Employers won't be fooled.

And LOL at the idea that you can't guarantee yourself a spot in Harvard's class just through numbers. That diploma mill has made its standards very clear.


That's why I was curious. Im sure Im taking a comparison of a school's grading system too far.

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ahduth
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ahduth » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:44 pm

This Harvard grade thing is a mountain-out-of-molehill situation. It's Harvard. No one cares what your grades are.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:45 pm

ahduth wrote:This Harvard grade thing is a mountain-out-of-molehill situation. It's Harvard. No one cares what your grades are.

loool.

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Bronte
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:46 pm

ahduth wrote:This Harvard grade thing is a mountain-out-of-molehill situation. It's Harvard. No one cares what your grades are.


Not quite the case. If that were true, they would have went all the way. Firms select among Harvard students based on the number of Ps and LPs and crap that they have. Students at lower ranked schools that do better than Harvard students have better options in terms of firms.

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redsoxfan2495
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby redsoxfan2495 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:48 pm

thederangedwang wrote:think it all depends on the field..if its biglaw then the difference is small ...however, when we start talking about academia and judicial clerkship stuff then the difference is apparent.....just look at the supreme court now, 6 from HLS, 3 for YLS

when it comes to academia and government, then i think the gap is larger and appreciable...in fact, i would say SLS lags behind Yale n HLS in this regard...judging from leiter's rankings and numbers, SLS really doesnt do better than CCN

While I generally agree with your point that there is an appreciable gap in academia, clerkships, etc., I have to point out the Ginsburg graduated from Columbia, making the count 5-3-1. We also trail Yale by a count of nine justices to twelve all time. Harvard has something like seventeen and no one else (including Stanford) has more than three. This is all worthless for determining where to go to law school today, but that's my pro-CLS trolling for the day.

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ph14
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:48 pm

Bronte wrote:
ahduth wrote:This Harvard grade thing is a mountain-out-of-molehill situation. It's Harvard. No one cares what your grades are.


Not quite the case. If that were true, they would have went all the way. Firms select among Harvard students based on the number of Ps and LPs and crap that they have. Students at lower ranked schools that do better than Harvard students have better options in terms of firms.


Agreed, I think of it more as a safety net-- firms will reach deeper into the class than at lower ranked schools.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby TaipeiMort » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:49 pm

I guess there is a gap between Harvard and Chicago: 4 times (25 versus 100) as many Harvard students are shut out of big law because of H's oversupply of grads, only half as many partners per capita for Harvard in relation to Chicago, and worse supreme court clerkship placement.

Oh. And a diluted educational quality because of their massive faculty filled with too few superstars.
Last edited by TaipeiMort on Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ph14
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:50 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:I guess there is a gap between Harvard and Chicago: 4 times (25 versus 100) as many Harvard students are shut out of big law because of their oversupply of grads, only half as many partners per capital for Harvard in relation to Chicago, and worse supreme court clerkship placement.


:roll:

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Bronte
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Bronte » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:50 pm

thederangedwang wrote:think it all depends on the field..if its biglaw then the difference is small ...however, when we start talking about academia and judicial clerkship stuff then the difference is apparent.....just look at the supreme court now, 6 from HLS, 3 for YLS

when it comes to academia and government, then i think the gap is larger and appreciable...in fact, i would say SLS lags behind Yale n HLS in this regard...judging from leiter's rankings and numbers, SLS really doesnt do better than CCN


The problem with this logic is that all those top students at HYS self-selecting into public interest increase the ease of getting a firm job from HYS. HYS and CCN are not equal for getting a firm job. HYS are better for getting a firm job.

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IAFG
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby IAFG » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:51 pm

ph14 wrote:
Bronte wrote:
ahduth wrote:This Harvard grade thing is a mountain-out-of-molehill situation. It's Harvard. No one cares what your grades are.


Not quite the case. If that were true, they would have went all the way. Firms select among Harvard students based on the number of Ps and LPs and crap that they have. Students at lower ranked schools that do better than Harvard students have better options in terms of firms.


Agreed, I think of it more as a safety net-- firms will reach deeper into the class than at lower ranked schools.

but how much deeper? is it really significant, or is that just TLS being so risk averse as to make much adieu about tiny differences?

Transferthrowaway
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:51 pm

My favorite part of this type of thread is when Tapei comes in to white knight UChicago.

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ph14
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ph14 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:57 pm

IAFG wrote:
ph14 wrote:
Bronte wrote:
ahduth wrote:This Harvard grade thing is a mountain-out-of-molehill situation. It's Harvard. No one cares what your grades are.


Not quite the case. If that were true, they would have went all the way. Firms select among Harvard students based on the number of Ps and LPs and crap that they have. Students at lower ranked schools that do better than Harvard students have better options in terms of firms.


Agreed, I think of it more as a safety net-- firms will reach deeper into the class than at lower ranked schools.

but how much deeper? is it really significant, or is that just TLS being so risk averse as to make much adieu about tiny differences?


I think it is significant, maybe not overwhelming but noticeable. Of course, that is purely anecdotal and I don't have anything statistically to back that up so take it for what you will.

But comparing the schools at sticker is one thing, it's much harder to determine how much additional value HLS adds. Half-tuition? I couldn't pinpoint it.
Last edited by ph14 on Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kaiser
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby kaiser » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:58 pm

Bronte wrote:
thederangedwang wrote:think it all depends on the field..if its biglaw then the difference is small ...however, when we start talking about academia and judicial clerkship stuff then the difference is apparent.....just look at the supreme court now, 6 from HLS, 3 for YLS

when it comes to academia and government, then i think the gap is larger and appreciable...in fact, i would say SLS lags behind Yale n HLS in this regard...judging from leiter's rankings and numbers, SLS really doesnt do better than CCN


The problem with this logic is that all those top students at HYS self-selecting into public interest increase the ease of getting a firm job from HYS. HYS and CCN are not equal for getting a firm job. HYS are better for getting a firm job.


This is probably true. But its only relevance is when you are looking at students in the bottom quarter of the class or perhaps bottom third. I would think the HYS kid who is bottom 1/3 is going to have an easier time than a CCN kid who is bottom 1/3. Again, this is just in reference to getting a firm job.

minnesotamike
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby minnesotamike » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:01 pm

IAFG wrote:
ph14 wrote:
Bronte wrote:
ahduth wrote:This Harvard grade thing is a mountain-out-of-molehill situation. It's Harvard. No one cares what your grades are.


Not quite the case. If that were true, they would have went all the way. Firms select among Harvard students based on the number of Ps and LPs and crap that they have. Students at lower ranked schools that do better than Harvard students have better options in terms of firms.


Agreed, I think of it more as a safety net-- firms will reach deeper into the class than at lower ranked schools.

but how much deeper? is it really significant, or is that just TLS being so risk averse as to make much adieu about tiny differences?


TITCQ. This is also a question that will not be answered on this forum. Nor, probably, anywhere until the ABA begins to audit schools' employment statistics (i.e., when our grandkids are going to law school to study Space Law).

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rayiner
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby rayiner » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:02 pm

It depends. For NYC big law, the gap between H and CLS/NYU is probably not huge, although the rarity of YLS and SLS grads still insulates the bottom of their class, relative to CLS/NYU where a significant number of people get a big firm job.

For some "snobby" jobs, however, there is a real gap between HYS and CCN. Williams and Connolly has 48 attorneys from HLS, and 9 from Columbia. At Covington DC, it's almost 100 attorneys from HLS and 19 from Columbia. I did OCI in DC, and it was quite clear that T14 was the minimum requirement to play the game, CCN, except maybe Chicago, wasn't considered in a different league, but HYS were considered legitimately prestigious.

LawClerkAddict used to track some good data: http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/

For 2008, the top appellate judges hired:

"The Dozen Most Prestigious Federal Appellate Judges:
Boudin: Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, Yale
Calabresi: Cornell, Harvard, NYU, Yale
Easterbrook: Chicago, Harvard
Garland: Harvard, Harvard, Michigan, Yale
Kozinski: Chicago, Harvard, Northwestern, Tulane
O'Scannlain: Cornell, Virginia, Yale, Yale
Posner: Chicago, Harvard, NYU
Reinhardt: Columbia, Harvard, UCLA, Yale
Sentelle: Duke, Harvard, Harvard
Tatel: Duke, Georgetown, Stanford
Wilkinson: Northwestern, Stanford, Virginia, Virginia
S. Williams (Sr.): Berkeley, Chicago, Yale"

That's 12 Harvard, 7 Yale, 1 Columbia.

minnesotamike
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby minnesotamike » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:04 pm

.
Last edited by minnesotamike on Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

minnesotamike
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby minnesotamike » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:11 pm

If you want a clerkship, this post illustrates the chasm that exists between HYS and CCN (at least during 2009-2010).

Wow.

Edit per Transfer's update below: The post apparently refers only to Circuit Court 'ships.

http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/2008/09/percentage-of-clerks-by-school.html
Last edited by minnesotamike on Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:17 pm

minnesotamike wrote:If you want a clerkship, this post illustrates the chasm that exists between HYS and CCN (at least during 2009-2010).

Wow.

http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/2008/09/percentage-of-clerks-by-school.html


Just to clarify -- those are #s for Circuit clerkships only.

booasa
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby booasa » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:21 pm

rayiner wrote:It depends. For NYC big law, the gap between H and CLS/NYU is probably not huge, although the rarity of YLS and SLS grads still insulates the bottom of their class, relative to CLS/NYU where a significant number of people get a big firm job.

For some "snobby" jobs, however, there is a real gap between HYS and CCN. Williams and Connolly has 48 attorneys from HLS, and 9 from Columbia. At Covington DC, it's almost 100 attorneys from HLS and 19 from Columbia. I did OCI in DC, and it was quite clear that T14 was the minimum requirement to play the game, CCN, except maybe Chicago, wasn't considered in a different league, but HYS were considered legitimately prestigious.

LawClerkAddict used to track some good data: http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/

For 2008, the top appellate judges hired:

"The Dozen Most Prestigious Federal Appellate Judges:
Boudin: Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, Yale
Calabresi: Cornell, Harvard, NYU, Yale
Easterbrook: Chicago, Harvard
Garland: Harvard, Harvard, Michigan, Yale
Kozinski: Chicago, Harvard, Northwestern, Tulane
O'Scannlain: Cornell, Virginia, Yale, Yale
Posner: Chicago, Harvard, NYU
Reinhardt: Columbia, Harvard, UCLA, Yale
Sentelle: Duke, Harvard, Harvard
Tatel: Duke, Georgetown, Stanford
Wilkinson: Northwestern, Stanford, Virginia, Virginia
S. Williams (Sr.): Berkeley, Chicago, Yale"

That's 12 Harvard, 7 Yale, 1 Columbia.

And 3 for Chicago which is 1/3 or less the size of Harvard and 1/2 or less the size of CLS

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ahduth
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Re: gap between HYS and CCN

Postby ahduth » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:23 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:
minnesotamike wrote:If you want a clerkship, this post illustrates the chasm that exists between HYS and CCN (at least during 2009-2010).

Wow.

http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/2008/09/percentage-of-clerks-by-school.html


Just to clarify -- those are #s for Circuit clerkships only.


Sweet site - spring for this one though: --LinkRemoved--




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