Cornell vs. Yale? Forum

[CanadianWolf]

My understanding is that biglaw recruiting at Toronto goes deeper than the Top 10% when including Bay Street firms in addition to Boston & NYC.

[Veyron]

I live in Canada and i know what's going on in it's market, so heres my two cents,

Right now, the situation at Ottawa is getting serious, especially with Lakehead now opening in Ontario.
In 2010, 30% of the students there didn't find an articling position(So they were stuck going with Government or moved straight to toronto to find a gig somewhere).
I won't say that Ottawa is a bad school, it is definitely not, but keep in mind that your grades will matter a lot and that if you don't meet the median, you'll be VERY limited for employment options.
BigLaw placement is also very good (Don't believe those saying that it's only for UofT, Oz, McGill grads), in fact, anyone with good grades has a shot for Biglaw at this school, so open your books and don't fuck this up if that's what you really want.
If Government work is your thing, then this school isfor you.

Now we're at UofT, which by all means, is very over rated all over Canada. The "prestige" of their J.D. may be "great", but the ONLY place this degree REALLY shines at is BigLaw placement. If Bay St is what you want, go for UofT, other than that, paying sticker at this school is not a good idea. That's not an opinion, that's a fucking fact, you got to be a real clown to get out with 80-120k debts, have to deal with 60-70k/year gigs in a place like Toronto and actually enjoy it. Even for Boston/NYC placement, only the top-10% has a shot for these jobs, so don't freak out. Believe it or not, there's still many students graduating with no articling positions out of this school, which confirms my initial claim that grades WILL make your future.

For anything else, (Government work, supreme court clerkships, academia, in-house, etc...), both schools are pretty much on par. If working outside of Canada is what you're looking for, then go for McGill, it's the only Canadian University that has made itself a good standing name in Europe and Asia.
If working in the U.S. is your goal, do yourself a favor and get into a U.S. Law School, you'll save yourself from lots of trouble.


Version for the ADD kids among us: Both schools are great, but please, for the love of fucking god, don't go to UofT if BigLaw is NOT your goal. Either way, your grades will make or break you.

What does this Canadian "BIGLAW" pay anyway?

[Noval]

I live in Canada and i know what's going on in it's market, so heres my two cents,

Right now, the situation at Ottawa is getting serious, especially with Lakehead now opening in Ontario.
In 2010, 30% of the students there didn't find an articling position(So they were stuck going with Government or moved straight to toronto to find a gig somewhere).
I won't say that Ottawa is a bad school, it is definitely not, but keep in mind that your grades will matter a lot and that if you don't meet the median, you'll be VERY limited for employment options.
BigLaw placement is also very good (Don't believe those saying that it's only for UofT, Oz, McGill grads), in fact, anyone with good grades has a shot for Biglaw at this school, so open your books and don't fuck this up if that's what you really want.
If Government work is your thing, then this school isfor you.

Now we're at UofT, which by all means, is very over rated all over Canada. The "prestige" of their J.D. may be "great", but the ONLY place this degree REALLY shines at is BigLaw placement. If Bay St is what you want, go for UofT, other than that, paying sticker at this school is not a good idea. That's not an opinion, that's a fucking fact, you got to be a real clown to get out with 80-120k debts, have to deal with 60-70k/year gigs in a place like Toronto and actually enjoy it. Even for Boston/NYC placement, only the top-10% has a shot for these jobs, so don't freak out. Believe it or not, there's still many students graduating with no articling positions out of this school, which confirms my initial claim that grades WILL make your future.

For anything else, (Government work, supreme court clerkships, academia, in-house, etc...), both schools are pretty much on par. If working outside of Canada is what you're looking for, then go for McGill, it's the only Canadian University that has made itself a good standing name in Europe and Asia.
If working in the U.S. is your goal, do yourself a favor and get into a U.S. Law School, you'll save yourself from lots of trouble.


Version for the ADD kids among us: Both schools are great, but please, for the love of fucking god, don't go to UofT if BigLaw is NOT your goal. Either way, your grades will make or break you.

What does this Canadian "BIGLAW" pay anyway?

100k + and bonus for most firms in Toronto, 85-100k starting + bonus everywhere else.
But at least the hours are not as intense and it's not really "biglaw or bust" unless you're going sticker at UofT.

[Mauve Dinosaur]

I live in Canada and i know what's going on in it's market, so heres my two cents,

Right now, the situation at Ottawa is getting serious, especially with Lakehead now opening in Ontario.
In 2010, 30% of the students there didn't find an articling position(So they were stuck going with Government or moved straight to toronto to find a gig somewhere).
I won't say that Ottawa is a bad school, it is definitely not, but keep in mind that your grades will matter a lot and that if you don't meet the median, you'll be VERY limited for employment options.
BigLaw placement is also very good (Don't believe those saying that it's only for UofT, Oz, McGill grads), in fact, anyone with good grades has a shot for Biglaw at this school, so open your books and don't fuck this up if that's what you really want.
If Government work is your thing, then this school isfor you.

Now we're at UofT, which by all means, is very over rated all over Canada. The "prestige" of their J.D. may be "great", but the ONLY place this degree REALLY shines at is BigLaw placement. If Bay St is what you want, go for UofT, other than that, paying sticker at this school is not a good idea. That's not an opinion, that's a fucking fact, you got to be a real clown to get out with 80-120k debts, have to deal with 60-70k/year gigs in a place like Toronto and actually enjoy it. Even for Boston/NYC placement, only the top-10% has a shot for these jobs, so don't freak out. Believe it or not, there's still many students graduating with no articling positions out of this school, which confirms my initial claim that grades WILL make your future.

For anything else, (Government work, supreme court clerkships, academia, in-house, etc...), both schools are pretty much on par. If working outside of Canada is what you're looking for, then go for McGill, it's the only Canadian University that has made itself a good standing name in Europe and Asia.
If working in the U.S. is your goal, do yourself a favor and get into a U.S. Law School, you'll save yourself from lots of trouble.


Version for the ADD kids among us: Both schools are great, but please, for the love of fucking god, don't go to UofT if BigLaw is NOT your goal. Either way, your grades will make or break you.

What does this Canadian "BIGLAW" pay anyway?

Median is around $1500/week for summer and articling students, established lawyers usually make around $200k/year after a few years. Most I've ever heard of a senior partner making is $2M. Pretty good by standards of most jobs, not great by US biglaw standards.

[Noval]

My understanding is that biglaw recruiting at Toronto goes deeper than the Top 10% when including Bay Street firms in addition to Boston & NYC.

Anyone in the Top-50% usually has a very good shot for Bay Street from UofT, while it usually goes down to Top-25% for Ottawa students(But tuition is lower and there's a lot of "plan B" opportunities aside of biglaw).

[ph14]

How hard is it to get a job in Canada if you're coming from a US law school?

[Veyron]

I live in Canada and i know what's going on in it's market, so heres my two cents,

Right now, the situation at Ottawa is getting serious, especially with Lakehead now opening in Ontario.
In 2010, 30% of the students there didn't find an articling position(So they were stuck going with Government or moved straight to toronto to find a gig somewhere).
I won't say that Ottawa is a bad school, it is definitely not, but keep in mind that your grades will matter a lot and that if you don't meet the median, you'll be VERY limited for employment options.
BigLaw placement is also very good (Don't believe those saying that it's only for UofT, Oz, McGill grads), in fact, anyone with good grades has a shot for Biglaw at this school, so open your books and don't fuck this up if that's what you really want.
If Government work is your thing, then this school isfor you.

Now we're at UofT, which by all means, is very over rated all over Canada. The "prestige" of their J.D. may be "great", but the ONLY place this degree REALLY shines at is BigLaw placement. If Bay St is what you want, go for UofT, other than that, paying sticker at this school is not a good idea. That's not an opinion, that's a fucking fact, you got to be a real clown to get out with 80-120k debts, have to deal with 60-70k/year gigs in a place like Toronto and actually enjoy it. Even for Boston/NYC placement, only the top-10% has a shot for these jobs, so don't freak out. Believe it or not, there's still many students graduating with no articling positions out of this school, which confirms my initial claim that grades WILL make your future.

For anything else, (Government work, supreme court clerkships, academia, in-house, etc...), both schools are pretty much on par. If working outside of Canada is what you're looking for, then go for McGill, it's the only Canadian University that has made itself a good standing name in Europe and Asia.
If working in the U.S. is your goal, do yourself a favor and get into a U.S. Law School, you'll save yourself from lots of trouble.


Version for the ADD kids among us: Both schools are great, but please, for the love of fucking god, don't go to UofT if BigLaw is NOT your goal. Either way, your grades will make or break you.

What does this Canadian "BIGLAW" pay anyway?

100k + and bonus for most firms in Toronto, 85-100k starting + bonus everywhere else.
But at least the hours are not as intense and it's not really "biglaw or bust" unless you're going sticker at UofT.

Damn, assuming vail of ignorance, Canadian law students have it a fuckton better than we do.

What are the bonuses like for first years?

Anyone in the Top-50% usually has a very good shot for Bay Street from UofT, while it usually goes down to Top-25% for Ottawa students(But tuition is lower and there's a lot of "plan B" opportunities aside of biglaw).

I've got it, I've got it, Michigan vs. BU!

[Noval]

How hard is it to get a job in Canada if you're coming from a US law school?

It's not that it's "hard" to get a job, it really depends on the location.
Vancouver = Shit.
Anywhere in Alberta = good because of the oil-runned economy.
Everywhere else = Decent, but you'll need connections to get started.
Quebec = You need a civil law degree, which only UdeM, UdeS, uLaval, Sherbrooke and uOttawa can deliver.

I wouldn't recommend your path, since getting the right to practice with a U.S. degree is typically very difficult.

[Grizz]

I live in Canada and i know what's going on in it's market, so heres my two cents,

Right now, the situation at Ottawa is getting serious, especially with Lakehead now opening in Ontario.
In 2010, 30% of the students there didn't find an articling position(So they were stuck going with Government or moved straight to toronto to find a gig somewhere).
I won't say that Ottawa is a bad school, it is definitely not, but keep in mind that your grades will matter a lot and that if you don't meet the median, you'll be VERY limited for employment options.
BigLaw placement is also very good (Don't believe those saying that it's only for UofT, Oz, McGill grads), in fact, anyone with good grades has a shot for Biglaw at this school, so open your books and don't fuck this up if that's what you really want.
If Government work is your thing, then this school isfor you.

Now we're at UofT, which by all means, is very over rated all over Canada. The "prestige" of their J.D. may be "great", but the ONLY place this degree REALLY shines at is BigLaw placement. If Bay St is what you want, go for UofT, other than that, paying sticker at this school is not a good idea. That's not an opinion, that's a fucking fact, you got to be a real clown to get out with 80-120k debts, have to deal with 60-70k/year gigs in a place like Toronto and actually enjoy it. Even for Boston/NYC placement, only the top-10% has a shot for these jobs, so don't freak out. Believe it or not, there's still many students graduating with no articling positions out of this school, which confirms my initial claim that grades WILL make your future.

For anything else, (Government work, supreme court clerkships, academia, in-house, etc...), both schools are pretty much on par. If working outside of Canada is what you're looking for, then go for McGill, it's the only Canadian University that has made itself a good standing name in Europe and Asia.
If working in the U.S. is your goal, do yourself a favor and get into a U.S. Law School, you'll save yourself from lots of trouble.


Version for the ADD kids among us: Both schools are great, but please, for the love of fucking god, don't go to UofT if BigLaw is NOT your goal. Either way, your grades will make or break you.

--ImageRemoved--

[Noval]

I live in Canada and i know what's going on in it's market, so heres my two cents,

Right now, the situation at Ottawa is getting serious, especially with Lakehead now opening in Ontario.
In 2010, 30% of the students there didn't find an articling position(So they were stuck going with Government or moved straight to toronto to find a gig somewhere).
I won't say that Ottawa is a bad school, it is definitely not, but keep in mind that your grades will matter a lot and that if you don't meet the median, you'll be VERY limited for employment options.
BigLaw placement is also very good (Don't believe those saying that it's only for UofT, Oz, McGill grads), in fact, anyone with good grades has a shot for Biglaw at this school, so open your books and don't fuck this up if that's what you really want.
If Government work is your thing, then this school isfor you.

Now we're at UofT, which by all means, is very over rated all over Canada. The "prestige" of their J.D. may be "great", but the ONLY place this degree REALLY shines at is BigLaw placement. If Bay St is what you want, go for UofT, other than that, paying sticker at this school is not a good idea. That's not an opinion, that's a fucking fact, you got to be a real clown to get out with 80-120k debts, have to deal with 60-70k/year gigs in a place like Toronto and actually enjoy it. Even for Boston/NYC placement, only the top-10% has a shot for these jobs, so don't freak out. Believe it or not, there's still many students graduating with no articling positions out of this school, which confirms my initial claim that grades WILL make your future.

For anything else, (Government work, supreme court clerkships, academia, in-house, etc...), both schools are pretty much on par. If working outside of Canada is what you're looking for, then go for McGill, it's the only Canadian University that has made itself a good standing name in Europe and Asia.
If working in the U.S. is your goal, do yourself a favor and get into a U.S. Law School, you'll save yourself from lots of trouble.


Version for the ADD kids among us: Both schools are great, but please, for the love of fucking god, don't go to UofT if BigLaw is NOT your goal. Either way, your grades will make or break you.

What does this Canadian "BIGLAW" pay anyway?

100k + and bonus for most firms in Toronto, 85-100k starting + bonus everywhere else.
But at least the hours are not as intense and it's not really "biglaw or bust" unless you're going sticker at UofT.

Damn, assuming vail of ignorance, Canadian law students have it a fuckton better than we do.

What are the bonuses like for first years?

It's really performance-based, and it usually goes anywhere from 10-50% of salary base, including benefit packages.

[Mauve Dinosaur]

My understanding is that biglaw recruiting at Toronto goes deeper than the Top 10% when including Bay Street firms in addition to Boston & NYC.

Anyone in the Top-50% usually has a very good shot for Bay Street from UofT, while it usually goes down to Top-25% for Ottawa students(But tuition is lower and there's a lot of "plan B" opportunities aside of biglaw).

Not to mention the fact that the median LSAT for U of T is 168 while Ottawa doesn't set minimums and has been known to let people south of 150 get in. Given that, it's possible that getting to the top of the curve at Ottawa would be somewhat easier to attain than Toronto. So much so that it may actually be easier to be top 25% in Ottawa than it is to be top 50% in Toronto. That's just conjecture though.

[Noval]

My understanding is that biglaw recruiting at Toronto goes deeper than the Top 10% when including Bay Street firms in addition to Boston & NYC.

Anyone in the Top-50% usually has a very good shot for Bay Street from UofT, while it usually goes down to Top-25% for Ottawa students(But tuition is lower and there's a lot of "plan B" opportunities aside of biglaw).

Not to mention the fact that the median LSAT for U of T is 168 while Ottawa doesn't set minimums and has been known to let people south of 150 get in. Given that, it's possible that getting to the top of the curve at Ottawa would be somewhat easier to attain than Toronto. So much so that it may actually be easier to be top 25% in Ottawa than it is to be top 50% in Toronto. That's just conjecture though.

Keep in mind that there's also a shit ton more students at Ottawa, so there's more competition too, they keep increasing the number of seatings without caring about the student's level or employment prospects, that's why we see 30% getting ditched for articling. But yes, if you have a a 165 + LSAT and go to Ottawa, you may end up topping the curve faster and easier than going to UofT, allowing you to access BigLaw with less debts and keep other options open.
The only students who got it REALLY easy at Ottawa are the frenchies studying civil law, since they only aim Quebec employment and the economy is much better there.

[Mauve Dinosaur]

I live in Canada and i know what's going on in it's market, so heres my two cents,

Right now, the situation at Ottawa is getting serious, especially with Lakehead now opening in Ontario.
In 2010, 30% of the students there didn't find an articling position(So they were stuck going with Government or moved straight to toronto to find a gig somewhere).
I won't say that Ottawa is a bad school, it is definitely not, but keep in mind that your grades will matter a lot and that if you don't meet the median, you'll be VERY limited for employment options.
BigLaw placement is also very good (Don't believe those saying that it's only for UofT, Oz, McGill grads), in fact, anyone with good grades has a shot for Biglaw at this school, so open your books and don't fuck this up if that's what you really want.
If Government work is your thing, then this school isfor you.

Now we're at UofT, which by all means, is very over rated all over Canada. The "prestige" of their J.D. may be "great", but the ONLY place this degree REALLY shines at is BigLaw placement. If Bay St is what you want, go for UofT, other than that, paying sticker at this school is not a good idea. That's not an opinion, that's a fucking fact, you got to be a real clown to get out with 80-120k debts, have to deal with 60-70k/year gigs in a place like Toronto and actually enjoy it. Even for Boston/NYC placement, only the top-10% has a shot for these jobs, so don't freak out. Believe it or not, there's still many students graduating with no articling positions out of this school, which confirms my initial claim that grades WILL make your future.

For anything else, (Government work, supreme court clerkships, academia, in-house, etc...), both schools are pretty much on par. If working outside of Canada is what you're looking for, then go for McGill, it's the only Canadian University that has made itself a good standing name in Europe and Asia.
If working in the U.S. is your goal, do yourself a favor and get into a U.S. Law School, you'll save yourself from lots of trouble.


Version for the ADD kids among us: Both schools are great, but please, for the love of fucking god, don't go to UofT if BigLaw is NOT your goal. Either way, your grades will make or break you.

What does this Canadian "BIGLAW" pay anyway?

100k + and bonus for most firms in Toronto, 85-100k starting + bonus everywhere else.
But at least the hours are not as intense and it's not really "biglaw or bust" unless you're going sticker at UofT.

Damn, assuming vail of ignorance, Canadian law students have it a fuckton better than we do.

Depends on your level of ambition. If you absolutely have your heart set on being a millionaire, it's easier to do that in the U.S. If you just want a comfortable upper-middle class lifestyle then it's more attainable in Canada.

[Mauve Dinosaur]

My understanding is that biglaw recruiting at Toronto goes deeper than the Top 10% when including Bay Street firms in addition to Boston & NYC.

Anyone in the Top-50% usually has a very good shot for Bay Street from UofT, while it usually goes down to Top-25% for Ottawa students(But tuition is lower and there's a lot of "plan B" opportunities aside of biglaw).

Not to mention the fact that the median LSAT for U of T is 168 while Ottawa doesn't set minimums and has been known to let people south of 150 get in. Given that, it's possible that getting to the top of the curve at Ottawa would be somewhat easier to attain than Toronto. So much so that it may actually be easier to be top 25% in Ottawa than it is to be top 50% in Toronto. That's just conjecture though.

Keep in mind that there's also a shit ton more students at Ottawa, so there's more competition too, they keep increasing the number of seatings without caring about the student's level or employment prospects, that's why we see 30% getting ditched for articling. But yes, if you have a a 165 + LSAT and go to Ottawa, you may end up topping the curve faster and easier than going to UofT, allowing you to access BigLaw with less debts or keep other options open.

Indeed, FUCK Alan Rock for keeping increasing the students. we wouldn't even really be having this discussion if Ottawa stayed at 200 like they should have.

[Veyron]

Depends on your level of ambition. If you absolutely have your heart set on being a millionaire, it's easier to do that in the U.S. If you just want a comfortable upper-middle class lifestyle then it's more attainable in Canada.

I mean, there aren't that many firms in the US where the average partner makes over 2m. If you want big money you've got to go strike-suiter, a field that has nothing to do with prestige. Then again, I doubt you can really go the strike-suit route in Canada at all.

[09042014]

Putting aside the fact that this analogy probably doesn't hold for whatever Canadia schools you are talking about.

But the correct answer is Cornell. Sure it has less chance that you'll get whatever job you want, but going to Yale has an incredible amount of risk people on TLS don't talk about. What happens if you are a terrible at being a lawyer, or hate it? If you flame out of big law in two or three years, you'll still have a lot of debt.

And the most likely outcome, that you'll land big law either way, 200K is a lot of money.

[biglaw$]

What is this Canada you speak of?

[paul34]

.

[top30man]

What is this Canada you speak of?

+1

[Noval]

What is this Canada you speak of?

The country in the north that isn't bankrupt and that isn't a Chinese province.

[Veyron]

What is this Canada you speak of?

The country in the north that isn't bankrupt and that isn't a Chinese province.

You mean the one where the elves make all the presents and such?

[northwood]

so you want to be in big maple syrup law, or hockey puck manufacturing law?


or do you want to work on mountie legislation and regulation???

[Gail]

You will regret not attending Yale. You will really really really really regret it.


Harvard and Yale are the schools for the movers and shakers of the future. Everything else is just a wealthy life at best, but a far cry from HY.

[johansantana21]

You will regret not attending Yale. You will really really really really regret it.


Harvard and Yale are the schools for the movers and shakers of the future. Everything else is just a wealthy life at best, but a far cry from HY.

Yeah, you know that school sTTTanford?

[indo]

I dunno nothin about Canadian schools, but I'm doubting University of Toronto has the same cache as Yale.

+`1 . Unveristy of Toronto is not in the same level as Yale. UT is the best Canadian law school but i can not be compare to Yale law school.
University of Toronto admitted class.
First Year J.D. Class (2011-2012)
Applicants 2,111
Class Size 199
Graduate degrees 22.6%
Median LSAT 168 (96th)
Median GPA 85.5% (3.9 approx.) *based on best 3 years of 4-year program

base on the above date University of Toronto is like Duke , Cornell, Norhwestern and Virginia.

Tution is less than $ 15,000 a year in Toronto or Ottawa.

I think you shuld take University of Toronto.