Regional v. Top Schools Forum

[3ThrowAway99]

I mean, I did pick my lowly T7 over NYU so clearly, I put my money where my mouth is. And, since it worked out splendidly for me, I would wager that I know a little something about how recruiting in the Wild West works.

Touche. Fair enough dude. I'm glad you did well, and I don't doubt that you know more than me about mountain west recruiting, especially if that is where you ended up landing a position (or at least targeting)... I'm actually a fan of yours on here (we have the U of A connection... or at least the AZ connection)... but I felt like you came on rather strong considering that I was just offering generalized speculation that probably (as far as generalizations go) isn't totally off as a rule of thumb.. Like I said though, feeling kind of feisty, and I came on strong so my apologies if I offend you.

No problem man. You looking to target AZ yourself or going elsewhere?

I've targeted multiple markets including AZ, ATL, TX, and NYC.. No luck yet.. But I don't have super-strong grades, and I am at a T20 (as opposed to Penn, which actually has pretty kick-ass placement power), so its not much of a surprise to me that I haven't landed private sector up to this point (and obv is not a good time to still be looking)...

I am starting to look more at Govt. and public interest options (which in many ways I would prob prefer to firm in any case), including some overseas non-profit type options... But getting private sector initially is nice for the loans--I'm happy for you man; I wish the legal market didn't suck so bad, making it ridiculously hard for many of us to get well-paying jobs, but I def feel happy for peers who do get something regardless of my own situation.

[Veyron]

I mean, I did pick my lowly T7 over NYU so clearly, I put my money where my mouth is. And, since it worked out splendidly for me, I would wager that I know a little something about how recruiting in the Wild West works.

Touche. Fair enough dude. I'm glad you did well, and I don't doubt that you know more than me about mountain west recruiting, especially if that is where you ended up landing a position (or at least targeting)... I'm actually a fan of yours on here (we have the U of A connection... or at least the AZ connection)... but I felt like you came on rather strong considering that I was just offering generalized speculation that probably (as far as generalizations go) isn't totally off as a rule of thumb.. Like I said though, feeling kind of feisty, and I came on strong so my apologies if I offend you.

No problem man. You looking to target AZ yourself or going elsewhere?

I've targeted multiple markets including AZ, ATL, TX, and NYC.. No luck yet.. But I don't have super-strong grades, and I am at a T20 (as opposed to Penn, which actually has pretty kick-ass placement power), so its not much of a surprise to me that I haven't landed private sector up to this point (and obv is not a good time to still be looking)...

I am starting to look more at Govt. and public interest options (which in many ways I would prob prefer to firm in any case), including some overseas non-profit type options... But getting private sector initially is nice for the loans--I'm happy for you man; I wish the legal market didn't suck so bad, making it ridiculously hard for many of us to get well-paying jobs, but I def feel happy for peers who do get something regardless of my own situation.

Sorry to hear it man, where do you actually want to work? I mean, I'm sure you'd take a job anywhere but like, if you had the choice.

[3ThrowAway99]

Well, where do you want to work?

I know regionality is very key with hiring.. problem is that I have lived all over country and really don't have super strong preferences (except prob do prefer somewhere warm)... But it looks like I could possibily have some options for international placements for next summer which I would be eager for, although the prob is that they may not translate to offers...


Anyway, sorry to highjack the thread here... I do think for substantial scholly a strong regional school will often prove the better value than a top school at full price, especially if the regional school is where the person wants to end up. But I think top schools can sometimes open doors that regional schools can't for sure.

[Veyron]

Well, where do you want to work?

I know regionality is very key with hiring.. problem is that I have lived all over country and really don't have super strong preferences (except prob do prefer somewhere warm)... But it looks like I could possibily have some options for international placements for next summer which I would be eager for, although the prob is that they may not translate to offers...

Yah, I feel you man, I got slaughtered wherever I didn't have ties.

[crit_racer]

While we're hijacking the thread...

What kind of questions do they ask re ties? Do they really drill you that hard? Is there any way to convince an employer that you want to work in a given market even though you have no tangible/quantifiable ties? Say, for example, you go to UT and want to work in Seattle/Portland/SF, but your entire resume screams Texas. Any chance at convincing these firms you actually want to live there and will stay around?

Would it be better to just take a job at a firm in your local market (assuming you can get one), and try to lateral after a few years? I ask as someone who would ideally like to work in a market that I have no ties to, and I'm wondering what my best chance is at making that happen...

[Veyron]

-

[crit_racer]

I just find that hard to understand. I've been around TLS long enough to see people mention ties in any thread related to legal employment, but I've never understood the "why?" of it other than they are afraid that you are going to jump ship to go back home, but it seems like any competent lawyer could convince someone that they are going to stick around. Or is there more to it than that?

Even if you mass mailed lots of small and midsize firms, you really think they would just trash a Texas resume? Is it different for biglaw than small or midsize firms?

[IAFG]

+1 to Veyron on PacNW. All my family is in Oregon, I've worked there and lived there, but never in Seattle specifically. You would think that would be good enough, but Seattle firms weren't buying it. I had an interviewer say, "So why Seattle? I see you've worked in Washington State and Oregon, but never actually in Seattle... Why not Portland or Spokane?"

I felt like all of the east coast was more open, the South was more insular, Minneapolis seemed more insular (e.g. being from another Midwestern state wasn't good enough) Milwaukee was more open to more tenuous ties... But I would definitely ask around TLS/OCS before going all in on a market based on whatever ties you have.

[crit_racer]

yeah I'm trying to do my research before I bid at OCI next fall (I know this is a long way away, but right now this thread is a welcomed distraction).

I don't want to bid exclusively on markets that are likely to dismiss me for not having ties and leave me out in the rain with no umbrella (hehe)

If it comes down to no job v. job in TX, I would obviously choose the latter. BUT...I don't want to give up on moving to PNW if I can make it happen, even if it requires a lot of extra leg work...

edit sp

[Veyron]

I just find that hard to understand. I've been around TLS long enough to see people mention ties in any thread related to legal employment, but I've never understood the "why?" of it other than they are afraid that you are going to jump ship to go back home, but it seems like any competent lawyer could convince someone that they are going to stick around. Or is there more to it than that?

Even if you mass mailed lots of small and midsize firms, you really think they would just trash a Texas resume? Is it different for biglaw than small or midsize firms?

They would be even more likely to trash a Texas resume than a large form IMHO. At least a big firm might be open to persuasion if you were top 5%, EIC of the law review or something.

As for the why, well, spin doesn't usually convince firms, you really do need legitimate ties. They are worried you are going to jump ship because believe it or not, it costs a shitton to recruit and train you. Thats why they might be open to persuasion by the cream of the UT crop because, after all, you COULD go anywhere so wherever you end up is presumably where you most want to be. Problem is, if you've never lived in the market, they'll probably just think you want to be there because you have some idealized notion of it and once you live there you might want to jump ship after a while even if you DID want to live there initially.

[IAFG]

yeah I'm trying to do my research before I bid at OCI next fall (I know this is a long way away, but right now this thread is a welcomed distraction).

I don't want to bid exclusively on markets that are likely to dismiss me for not having ties and leave me out in the rain with no umbrella (hehe)

If it comes down to no job v. job in TX, I would obviously choose the latter. BUT...I don't want to give up on moving to PNW if I can make it happen, even if it requires a lot of extra leg work...

edit sp

Sorry but you're totally, totally boned in PacNW. The only thing that might possibly sorta help is 1L summer there, but still, my money is on "epically boned in PacNW."

Or maybe transferring to U of W? Jesus, maybe...

[Veyron]

yeah I'm trying to do my research before I bid at OCI next fall (I know this is a long way away, but right now this thread is a welcomed distraction).

I don't want to bid exclusively on markets that are likely to dismiss me for not having ties and leave me out in the rain with no umbrella (hehe)

If it comes down to no job v. job in TX, I would obviously choose the latter. BUT...I don't want to give up on moving to PNW if I can make it happen, even if it requires a lot of extra leg work...

edit sp

Sorry but you're totally, totally boned in PacNW. The only thing that might possibly sorta help is 1L summer there, but still, my money is on "epically boned in PacNW."

Or maybe transferring to U of W? Jesus, maybe...

Yah, I mean, if you transferred DOWN like that that has got to show some pretty serious commitment to the market. Still, probably no dice.

[IAFG]

lol @ Seattle firms thinking U of W is transferring "down."

But in all seriousness, not only is it icy to non-Seattle folks, there are like 40 jobs in the whole city.

[Veyron]

lol @ Seattle firms thinking U of W is transferring "down."

Touche.

[rinkrat19]

How about bringing a T14 (NU, specifically) JD home to Portland? My ties are as deep as they come: lived here 25 years, family here, UG in-state, own a condo here. Can median at NU compete with the top of the classes at the Oregon schools? I can't believe I'd be viewed as a flight risk, but how much do they care about prestige vs. local school pride?

Obviously I'll try not to be median, but someone has to be.

[Grizz]

In answer to your question, that person is never going to get a job in the PNW. The only way to pull it off would be to work there for a few years before law school before applying. The PNW is one of the most insular legal markets in the country.

Questions I got re ties:

Why do you want to work here, why not ________.
What is your connection to _________.
Why did you go to Penn?
Did you go to high school here?

etc.

My favorite in the South was very oblique references to your ties, almost trying to trap you. They would rarely ask directly, but you'd get a lot of variations on the following:

From people in market Y: "So I see you worked in home market X this summer. Did you enjoy seeing your family and being back home, and how did you enjoy working in X?"

TCR: "I did enjoy home and family, but I really missed [a, b, and c] in market Y. Although I really enjoyed my time in X, I'd really like to work in market Y because of [1, 2 and 3] in market Y."

[Veyron]

How about bringing a T14 (NU, specifically) JD home to Portland? My ties are as deep as they come: lived here 25 years, family here, UG in-state, own a condo here. Can median at NU compete with the top of the classes at the Oregon schools? I can't believe I'd be viewed as a flight risk, but how much do they care about prestige vs. local school pride?

Obviously I'll try not to be median, but someone has to be.

Your ties are good but Portland is like Seattle X1000 - INSANELY INSANELY INSANELY competitive. Frankly, I just don't think that median will cut it.

[IAFG]

How about bringing a T14 (NU, specifically) JD home to Portland? My ties are as deep as they come: lived here 25 years, family here, UG in-state, own a condo here. Can median at NU compete with the top of the classes at the Oregon schools? I can't believe I'd be viewed as a flight risk, but how much do they care about prestige vs. local school pride?

Obviously I'll try not to be median, but someone has to be.

The only problem is that there aren't many jobs. It looks like around 30 SAs at all the NALP firms? And not any of them come to our OCI (for Portland). But I don't think you'll have a ties problem.

Like I mentioned before, in secondary/tertiary markets, I see two "hiring habits" that are firm-dependent and not market-dependent. Firms are either:

1) Going to want to hire top 1%/5%/10%/whatever at local schools and not be wow'd by T14 (unless you're in a similar top X% there too, but remember, this habit is at least partially attributable to school loyalty), or
2) Firms are going to be prestige-conscious and cut you a little more slack on grades (if you need that).

In my experience, I think branch offices of bigger firms are probably more impressed with T14 than purely local firms, but it's hard to know until you get in there.

[Grizz]

How about bringing a T14 (NU, specifically) JD home to Portland? My ties are as deep as they come: lived here 25 years, family here, UG in-state, own a condo here. Can median at NU compete with the top of the classes at the Oregon schools? I can't believe I'd be viewed as a flight risk, but how much do they care about prestige vs. local school pride?

Obviously I'll try not to be median, but someone has to be.

Your ties are good but Portland is like Seattle X1000 - INSANELY INSANELY INSANELY competitive. Frankly, I just don't think that median will cut it.

This might be of interest:

--LinkRemoved--

This is not all the firms in Portland that take 2Ls, obviously, but if I had to generalize, looks like T14 + UT and Vandy plus the cream of the crop from local schools.

[09042014]

I'm getting the picture that law school is not at all a way to relocate across the country. Firms like kids who grew up near their city.

It is if you have a fake fiance'.

[Veyron]

How about bringing a T14 (NU, specifically) JD home to Portland? My ties are as deep as they come: lived here 25 years, family here, UG in-state, own a condo here. Can median at NU compete with the top of the classes at the Oregon schools? I can't believe I'd be viewed as a flight risk, but how much do they care about prestige vs. local school pride?

Obviously I'll try not to be median, but someone has to be.

Your ties are good but Portland is like Seattle X1000 - INSANELY INSANELY INSANELY competitive. Frankly, I just don't think that median will cut it.

This might be of interest:

--LinkRemoved--

This is not all the firms in Portland that take 2Ls, obviously, but if I had to generalize, looks like T14 + UT and Vandy plus the cream of the crop from local schools.

The problem is that that isn't even enough of a sample size to generalize off of. 31 summer associates, damn.

[rinkrat19]

How about bringing a T14 (NU, specifically) JD home to Portland? My ties are as deep as they come: lived here 25 years, family here, UG in-state, own a condo here. Can median at NU compete with the top of the classes at the Oregon schools? I can't believe I'd be viewed as a flight risk, but how much do they care about prestige vs. local school pride?

Obviously I'll try not to be median, but someone has to be.

Your ties are good but Portland is like Seattle X1000 - INSANELY INSANELY INSANELY competitive. Frankly, I just don't think that median will cut it.

This might be of interest:

--LinkRemoved--

This is not all the firms in Portland that take 2Ls, obviously, but if I had to generalize, looks like T14 + UT and Vandy plus the cream of the crop from local schools.

I actually did the breakdown of Portland NALP firm associates hired since 2000. About 51% are from the 3 Oregon schools, and 21% from T14.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... nItVU90VkE

[de5igual]

How about bringing a T14 (NU, specifically) JD home to Portland? My ties are as deep as they come: lived here 25 years, family here, UG in-state, own a condo here. Can median at NU compete with the top of the classes at the Oregon schools? I can't believe I'd be viewed as a flight risk, but how much do they care about prestige vs. local school pride?

Obviously I'll try not to be median, but someone has to be.

Your ties are good but Portland is like Seattle X1000 - INSANELY INSANELY INSANELY competitive. Frankly, I just don't think that median will cut it.

+1

I think this is true of most smaller, insular markets. While firms would love to have someone from a higher ranked school w/ ties, they'd love even more to have someone with Law Review/Order of the Coif distinctions.

[Grizz]

How about bringing a T14 (NU, specifically) JD home to Portland? My ties are as deep as they come: lived here 25 years, family here, UG in-state, own a condo here. Can median at NU compete with the top of the classes at the Oregon schools? I can't believe I'd be viewed as a flight risk, but how much do they care about prestige vs. local school pride?

Obviously I'll try not to be median, but someone has to be.

Your ties are good but Portland is like Seattle X1000 - INSANELY INSANELY INSANELY competitive. Frankly, I just don't think that median will cut it.

+1

I think this is true of most smaller, insular markets. While firms would love to have someone from a higher ranked school w/ ties, they'd love even more to have someone with Law Review/Order of the Coif distinctions.

FL is eating up people from T14 strong regionals (Vandy, UT) to the detriment of UF and FSU. Soooo many people who have ties and leave.

[rayiner]

Hmmm, I doubt Penn is looked at as equal to Columbia in any region...

In DC, there is HYS, then TTT.