Regional v. Top Schools

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the_gregster12
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Regional v. Top Schools

Postby the_gregster12 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:28 pm

If I want to practice in a particular state, would I be better off studying in that states flagship university, or going with the higher-ranked school?

I'm specifically thinking about schools like Colorado and University of Washington. Both schools are located in states I'd like to live/practice, but I'm wondering if I'd be cheating myself if I passed up on a higher-ranked school. Any advice would be appreciated.

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Veyron
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Veyron » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:31 pm

the_gregster12 wrote:If I want to practice in a particular state, would I be better off studying in that states flagship university, or going with the higher-ranked school?

I'm specifically thinking about schools like Colorado and University of Washington. Both schools are located in states I'd like to live/practice, but I'm wondering if I'd be cheating myself if I passed up on a higher-ranked school. Any advice would be appreciated.


For CO, I would guess it goes something like:

T14 > Colorado > Field

de5igual
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby de5igual » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:35 pm

everything comes down to a school's reputation and your ties to the market

so assuming you have ties to either region, you'd want to go to the most reputable school you can that is recognized by employers in that region (typically includes the t10/t14+some others)

if you don't have ties, then you'd want to go the best school that directly feeds into that market. even then, many/most employers would be wary of you if you don't have ties other than the school.

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Grizz
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Grizz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:36 pm

f0bolous wrote:everything comes down to a school's reputation and your ties to the market

so assuming you have ties to either region, you'd want to go to the most reputable school you can that is recognized by employers in that region (typically includes the t10/t14+some others)

if you don't have ties, then you'd want to go the best school that directly feeds into that market. even then, many/most employers would be wary of you if you don't have ties other than the school.

This, plus grades (which you can't control yet).

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Lawquacious
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:42 pm

Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.

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rayiner
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:50 pm

If you want big law and have ties to the market, go to the T14. Employers are perfectly happy to hire people from national schools who want to come back home. If you want big law and don't have ties do the market, go to the T14. Denver and the PNW area small legal markets, and employers are highly skeptical of people from out of state, even ones that go to the regional school.

Heck, I got skeptical hippo faces when looking for jobs in my T14's regional market, because I didn't have strong ties.

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IAFG
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby IAFG » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:55 pm

Grizz wrote:
f0bolous wrote:everything comes down to a school's reputation and your ties to the market

so assuming you have ties to either region, you'd want to go to the most reputable school you can that is recognized by employers in that region (typically includes the t10/t14+some others)

if you don't have ties, then you'd want to go the best school that directly feeds into that market. even then, many/most employers would be wary of you if you don't have ties other than the school.

This, plus grades (which you can't control yet).

Yup. If you knew you were going to be 10%, going local might make sense, but you have no way of knowing that right now.

Once upon a time, in an economy long forgotten, TLS would have said, choose flagship local school over T14 if you're sure you want to practice there. But then, the firms and markets that used to swallow up all the T14 grads cut back on hiring, and local firms and markets cut back too, and T14 students who failed to land NYC/Chicago/DC started competing more fiercely for jobs in smaller markets alongside the top of the class at flagship schools.

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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Veyron » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:56 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.


*Knows nothing about the mountain west*

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:12 pm

Veyron wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.


*Knows nothing about the mountain west*

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.


Dude, I lived in CO for three years and attended a SW school that feeds (to some degree into Denver)... But that's true, doesn't mean I know much about Mountain West legal scene...

But I'm not sure how much you know either being an Arizona boy who went to Penn hoping to get back to the Valley lol... Maybe that's how you learned.. fair enough (not saying it can't be done.. but not sure how PHX looks on Penn--it seems to me Berk would have been a better bet)..

In any case, what exactly was your point? Just that it would be worth taking the T1 over a T6 even if only 50% scholly? or 75%? Because, all I was saying is that T6 would prob be credited over the T1 unless full ride at the T1....



Oh, FTR, I mean T6 excluding NYU, simply because Columbia, Chicago, HYS have more cred in other regions I think. And I understand being T7 at Penn must be rough (though your still at a much better school than me), but it doesn't mean there isn't a sig jump from Penn to Columbia bro.

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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby de5igual » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:18 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.


*Knows nothing about the mountain west*

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.


Dude, I lived in CO for three years and attended a SW school that feeds (to some degree into Denver)... But that's true, doesn't mean I know much about Mountain West legal scene...

But I'm not sure how much you know either being an Arizona boy who went to Penn hoping to get back to the Valley lol... Maybe that's how you learned.. fair enough (not saying it can't be done.. but not sure how PHX looks on Penn--it seems to me Berk would have been a better bet)..

In any case, what exactly was your point? Just that it would be worth taking the T1 over a T6 even if only 50% scholly? or 75%? Because, all I was saying is that T6 would prob be credited over the T1 unless full ride at the T1....


His point was obviously that Penn = CCN when it comes to the Mountain West. Not sure if that's credited, but that's where his issue is.

Now, discuss.

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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Veyron » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:18 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.


*Knows nothing about the mountain west*

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.


Dude, I lived in CO for three years and attended a SW school that feeds (to some degree into Denver)... But that's true, doesn't mean I know much about Mountain West legal scene...

But I'm not sure how much you know either being an Arizona boy who went to Penn hoping to get back to the Valley lol... Maybe that's how you learned.. fair enough (not saying it can't be done.. but not sure how PHX looks on Penn--it seems to me Berk would have been a better bet)..

In any case, what exactly was your point? Just that it would be worth taking the T1 over a T6 even if only 50% scholly? or 75%? Because, all I was saying is that T6 would prob be credited over the T1 unless full ride at the T1....



Oh, FTR, I mean T6 excluding NYU, simply because Columbia, Chicago, HYS have more cred in other regions I think. And I understand being T7 at Penn must be rough (though your still at a much better school than me), but it doesn't mean there isn't a sig jump from Penn to Columbia bro.


I learned by asking partners at various law firms where I wanted to work how they rank schools when making hiring decisions. I'm sometimes shocked that no one else did this before picking a school.


His point was obviously that Penn = CCN when it comes to the Mountain West. Not sure if that's credited, but that's where his issue is.


In the same vein as above, what I found was this: all firms draw a distinction at T3. Some then draw an additional distinction at T10 while others draw it at T14. I can only assume that Denver wouldn't be that different. My feeling is that the Mountain West is more about grades than school.
Last edited by Veyron on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm

Veyron wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.


*Knows nothing about the mountain west*

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.


Dude, I lived in CO for three years and attended a SW school that feeds (to some degree into Denver)... But that's true, doesn't mean I know much about Mountain West legal scene...

But I'm not sure how much you know either being an Arizona boy who went to Penn hoping to get back to the Valley lol... Maybe that's how you learned.. fair enough (not saying it can't be done.. but not sure how PHX looks on Penn--it seems to me Berk would have been a better bet)..

In any case, what exactly was your point? Just that it would be worth taking the T1 over a T6 even if only 50% scholly? or 75%? Because, all I was saying is that T6 would prob be credited over the T1 unless full ride at the T1....



Oh, FTR, I mean T6 excluding NYU, simply because Columbia, Chicago, HYS have more cred in other regions I think. And I understand being T7 at Penn must be rough (though your still at a much better school than me), but it doesn't mean there isn't a sig jump from Penn to Columbia bro.


I learned by asking partners at various law firms where I wanted to work how they rank schools when making hiring decisions. I'm sometimes shocked that no one else did this before picking a school.



I hear you, and I'm not trying to be a dick (just kind of feisty tonight).. it is true that the distinctions tend to be arbitrary, but I think they can be useful to some degree as heuristics..

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Lawquacious
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:22 pm

f0bolous wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.


*Knows nothing about the mountain west*

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.


Dude, I lived in CO for three years and attended a SW school that feeds (to some degree into Denver)... But that's true, doesn't mean I know much about Mountain West legal scene...

But I'm not sure how much you know either being an Arizona boy who went to Penn hoping to get back to the Valley lol... Maybe that's how you learned.. fair enough (not saying it can't be done.. but not sure how PHX looks on Penn--it seems to me Berk would have been a better bet)..

In any case, what exactly was your point? Just that it would be worth taking the T1 over a T6 even if only 50% scholly? or 75%? Because, all I was saying is that T6 would prob be credited over the T1 unless full ride at the T1....


His point was obviously that Penn = CCN when it comes to the Mountain West. Not sure if that's credited, but that's where his issue is.

Now, discuss.



Hmmm, I doubt Penn is looked at as equal to Columbia in any region...

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Gail
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Gail » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:23 pm

I'm getting the picture that law school is not at all a way to relocate across the country. Firms like kids who grew up near their city.

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Grizz
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Grizz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:26 pm

Gail wrote:I'm getting the picture that law school is not at all a way to relocate across the country. Firms like kids who grew up near their city.

Once upon a time, it was easier, but no longer.

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Veyron
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Veyron » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:26 pm

Hmmm, I doubt Penn is looked at as equal to Columbia in any region...


Actually, I'd wager that I was better off at Penn than CLS since we don't disclose rank and have a high curve. Again grades >> school when schools are close together in rank.

I mean, I did pick my lowly T7 over NYU so clearly, I put my money where my mouth is. And, since it worked out splendidly for me, I would wager that I know a little something about how recruiting in the Wild West works.


I'm getting the picture that law school is not at all a way to relocate across the country. Firms like kids who grew up near their city.


Not unless you want to re-locate to New York.
Last edited by Veyron on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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IAFG
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby IAFG » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:28 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Hmmm, I doubt Penn is looked at as equal to Columbia in any region...

I bet it's more firm-dependent than region-dependent, but I don't doubt it one bit. The distinction between T6 and T10 outside of NYC is... not as clear as TLS would have you believe.

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IAFG
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby IAFG » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:29 pm

Gail wrote:I'm getting the picture that law school is not at all a way to relocate across the country. Firms like kids who grew up near their city.

Some markets care more than others. IME, Seattle was brutal, other markets were more open-minded.

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Gail
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Gail » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:34 pm

IAFG wrote:Some markets care more than others. IME, Seattle was brutal, other markets were more open-minded.


It seems kind of limited to NYC/LA/Chi from what I'm seeing.

Every place else is an additional weight to carry to crack the market

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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:35 pm

IAFG wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Hmmm, I doubt Penn is looked at as equal to Columbia in any region...

I bet it's more firm-dependent than region-dependent, but I don't doubt it one bit. The distinction between T6 and T10 outside of NYC is... not as clear as TLS would have you believe.



Yeah, I think that is particularly true with NYU (that it prob functions more like the rest of the T10).. but I think with Columbia and Chicago there prob is still a boost over lower T10... But I could be wrong... And these distinctions are at least somewhat arbitrary.. But come on, it strikes me as somewhat suspicious when a guy at school ranked 7 makes a fuss about T6 being non-existent... Don't get me wrong though, I'm actually a big Penn fan..

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IAFG
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby IAFG » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:37 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Hmmm, I doubt Penn is looked at as equal to Columbia in any region...

I bet it's more firm-dependent than region-dependent, but I don't doubt it one bit. The distinction between T6 and T10 outside of NYC is... not as clear as TLS would have you believe.



Yeah, I think that is particularly true with NYU (that it prob functions more like the rest of the T10).. but I think with Columbia and Chicago there prob is still a boost over lower T10... But I could be wrong... And these distinctions are at least somewhat arbitrary.. But come on, it strikes me as somewhat suspicious when a guy at school ranked 7 makes a fuss about T6 being non-existent... Don't get me wrong though, I'm actually a big Penn fan..

I agree, Veyron is a pretty egregious troll, but being from the Pacific Northwest, I don't think even lawyers in that area are drawing a big fat line between Chicago/Columbia and Penn or even Cornell. It's going to come down to
1) Believable ties
2) Whether the firm is the sort of firm that is impressed by prestige or impressed by top 2% kids at the local schools.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:38 pm

Veyron wrote:I mean, I did pick my lowly T7 over NYU so clearly, I put my money where my mouth is. And, since it worked out splendidly for me, I would wager that I know a little something about how recruiting in the Wild West works.


Touche. Fair enough dude. I'm glad you did well, and I don't doubt that you know more than me about mountain west recruiting, especially if that is where you ended up landing a position (or at least targeting)... I'm actually a fan of yours on here (we have the U of A connection... or at least the AZ connection)... but I felt like you came on rather strong considering that I was just offering generalized speculation that probably (as far as generalizations go) isn't totally off as a rule of thumb.. Like I said though, feeling kind of feisty, and I came on strong so my apologies if I offend you. :D

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Lawquacious
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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:40 pm

IAFG wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Hmmm, I doubt Penn is looked at as equal to Columbia in any region...

I bet it's more firm-dependent than region-dependent, but I don't doubt it one bit. The distinction between T6 and T10 outside of NYC is... not as clear as TLS would have you believe.



Yeah, I think that is particularly true with NYU (that it prob functions more like the rest of the T10).. but I think with Columbia and Chicago there prob is still a boost over lower T10... But I could be wrong... And these distinctions are at least somewhat arbitrary.. But come on, it strikes me as somewhat suspicious when a guy at school ranked 7 makes a fuss about T6 being non-existent... Don't get me wrong though, I'm actually a big Penn fan..

I agree, Veyron is a pretty egregious troll, but being from the Pacific Northwest, I don't think even lawyers in that area are drawing a big fat line between Chicago/Columbia and Penn or even Cornell. It's going to come down to
1) Believable ties
2) Whether the firm is the sort of firm that is impressed by prestige or impressed by top 2% kids at the local schools.


Yeah, I think NW is especially known for that... And different regions seem to have different top school preferences to some extent (in AZ Georgetown seemed preferred to even Penn from what I could tell)... Also firms have their own prefs...

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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby Veyron » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:41 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Veyron wrote:I mean, I did pick my lowly T7 over NYU so clearly, I put my money where my mouth is. And, since it worked out splendidly for me, I would wager that I know a little something about how recruiting in the Wild West works.


Touche. Fair enough dude. I'm glad you did well, and I don't doubt that you know more than me about mountain west recruiting, especially if that is where you ended up landing a position (or at least targeting)... I'm actually a fan of yours on here (we have the U of A connection... or at least the AZ connection)... but I felt like you came on rather strong considering that I was just offering generalized speculation that probably (as far as generalizations go) isn't totally off as a rule of thumb.. Like I said though, feeling kind of feisty, and I came on strong so my apologies if I offend you. :D


No problem man. You looking to target AZ yourself or going elsewhere?

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Re: Regional v. Top Schools

Postby bdubs » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:42 pm

IAFG wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Hmmm, I doubt Penn is looked at as equal to Columbia in any region...

I bet it's more firm-dependent than region-dependent, but I don't doubt it one bit. The distinction between T6 and T10 outside of NYC is... not as clear as TLS would have you believe.



Yeah, I think that is particularly true with NYU (that it prob functions more like the rest of the T10).. but I think with Columbia and Chicago there prob is still a boost over lower T10... But I could be wrong... And these distinctions are at least somewhat arbitrary.. But come on, it strikes me as somewhat suspicious when a guy at school ranked 7 makes a fuss about T6 being non-existent... Don't get me wrong though, I'm actually a big Penn fan..

I agree, Veyron is a pretty egregious troll, but being from the Pacific Northwest, I don't think even lawyers in that area are drawing a big fat line between Chicago/Columbia and Penn or even Cornell. It's going to come down to
1) Believable ties
2) Whether the firm is the sort of firm that is impressed by prestige or impressed by top 2% kids at the local schools.


PNW lawyers don't have the same ridiculous love of New York that East Coasters do. The handful of lawyers that I know would be just as impressed with any recognizable T14 as they would be by Columbia or NYU.

I'd imagine the same goes for Denver. If you can get into a school on the West Coast though that will probably help your chances out. Unfortunately Stanford and Berkeley have different admissions criteria than most schools and many people just don't qualify.




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