IU v. UIUC

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CanadianWolf
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:08 pm

By what standard or measurement is Illinois a much better law school than Indiana "by quite a bit" ?

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Kabuo
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Kabuo » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:12 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:By what standard or measurement is Illinois a much better law school than Indiana "by quite a bit" ?


Oh, I dunno, how about a direct comparison? When comparing 2 things, can you see how 20% is quite a bit better than 10%, while neither are great? All numbers approximate, and probably generous to IUB.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Transferthrowaway » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:13 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:By what standard or measurement is Illinois a much better law school than Indiana "by quite a bit" ?

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CanadianWolf
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:16 pm

Past employment numbers. But in light of the Illinois scandal & Illinois' decreased medians, and in light of Indiana's $30 million dollar scholarship fund & rising medians that may change.

P.S. @kubao: A comparison of which numbers ? 20% of what versus 10% of what ?

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romothesavior
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby romothesavior » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:20 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Past employment numbers. But in light of the Illinois scandal & Illinois' decreased medians, and in light of Indiana's $30 million dollar scholarship fund & rising medians that may change.

P.S. @kubao: A comparison of which numbers ? 20% of what versus 10% of what ?

NLJ 250 placement, which is far and away the best metric for job placement because it is the only one not completely muddled by CSO reporting.

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Gail
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Gail » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:21 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Gail wrote:I imagine this should lead people to prefer IUB at 120k over UIUC with maybe 45k or sticker. UIUC gives you better chances in a bloodbath for Chicago biglaw, but if its as bad as you say, why bother? Why not minimize debt and enjoy a career instead?

If those are the numbers, then yeah you should probably do that. But if the numbers are closer, or you are an Illinois resident, I'd probably say take UIUC. All things being equal. Illinois is the better school by quite a bit. And you also get locked in tuition at Illinois, which probably would save you a few grand.


True. And I am an IL resident, so that is a big sticking point.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:23 pm

Gail wrote:I imagine this should lead people to prefer IUB at 120k over UIUC with maybe 45k or sticker. UIUC gives you better chances in a bloodbath for Chicago biglaw, but if its as bad as you say, why bother? Why not minimize debt and enjoy a career instead?


Because IUB is not as good as its peers for jobs in general (see law school transparency, 2009 employment graphs, NLJ placement, and logic and reasoning skills). It's not in Indianapolis (where a peer school is located - IUI), and it is not the best school in the state (Notre Dame).

Outside of Indiana, it's not even considered to be better or on par with a wide range of schools in almost every state. That's important to note because it affects how competitive graduates are against graduates from other schools.

However, if you don't want to be in Indiana, don't go to Indiana.

CanadianWolf
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:27 pm

But, again, Indiana may be rising while Illinois declines. By how much, however, remains to be seen.
As for USNews rankings in which both are currently tied at 23, Indiana may rise or remain the same, while Illinois is likely to fall substantially. NLJ employment figures may also be affected.

Scholarship offers & target markets should govern one's choice between these schools, in my opinion.

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romothesavior
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby romothesavior » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:33 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:But, again, Indiana may be rising while Illinois declines. By how much, however, remains to be seen.
As for USNews rankings in which both are currently tied at 23, Indiana may rise or remain the same, while Illinois is likely to fall substantially. NLJ employment figures may also be affected.

Scholarship offers & target markets should govern one's choice between these schools, in my opinion.

USNWR rankings are close to meaningless. Even if UIUC falls to 50 (very possible), if they still have double the job placement of IUB, then taking IUB (all things being equal) is probably a bad move. Also, it remains to be seen how this scandal affects Illinois, but I think the general consensus is that it won't hurt too much. It is certainly a school I'd be wary of though, just like IUB.

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Ludo!
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:46 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:@Ludovico Technique: Yes, I am not in law school. Seriously. But I bet that you'll figure it out. :D


Why is this so cryptic? Did you graduate law school? Drop out of law school? 0l? not planning on going at all?

CanadianWolf
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:15 pm

If USNews rankings are so meaningless, then why did Illinois & Villanova undertake such unethical practices in order to improve their USNews rankings ?

When USNews rankings rise, so do applications, and the inverse seems to be true as well.

P.S. Just walk into WashUStL law admissions & try telling them that USNews law school rankings are meaningless & see what ensues.

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ahduth
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby ahduth » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:22 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:If USNews rankings are so meaningless, then why did Illinois & Villanova undertake such unethical practices in order to improve their USNews rankings ?

When USNews rankings rise, so do applications, and the inverse seems to be true as well.

P.S. Just walk into WashUStL law admissions & try telling them that USNews law school rankings are meaningless & see what ensues.


IU-B gets you positions in INDIANA'S government. Not Illinois's. I don't even know where the hell Villanova is. I kind of thought this thread was about getting a job in Chicago or Illinois. If not, I'll quietly exit.

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20130312
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby 20130312 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:25 pm

ahduth wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:If USNews rankings are so meaningless, then why did Illinois & Villanova undertake such unethical practices in order to improve their USNews rankings ?

When USNews rankings rise, so do applications, and the inverse seems to be true as well.

P.S. Just walk into WashUStL law admissions & try telling them that USNews law school rankings are meaningless & see what ensues.


IU-B gets you positions in INDIANA'S government. Not Illinois's. I don't even know where the hell Villanova is. I kind of thought this thread was about getting a job in Chicago or Illinois. If not, I'll quietly exit.


Villanova = about a half hour west of Philly

CanadianWolf
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:34 pm

OP currently works or has worked as a paralegal in Chicago, but has not specified that he/she is seeking government work or only Chicago. The Villanova reference should be obvious that it was in response to another post about USNews rankings.

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ahduth
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby ahduth » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:51 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:OP currently works or has worked as a paralegal in Chicago, but has not specified that he/she is seeking government work or only Chicago. The Villanova reference should be obvious that it was in response to another post about USNews rankings.


You're kind of a crappy sniper poster who kills threads without being seen. Maybe you have a job in Illinois's government after all?

You still don't get into UIUC however, sorry.

CanadianWolf
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:21 pm

What ???

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JamMasterJ
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:29 pm

IU is Ohio State with better medians.

Illinois is WUSTL with worse medians

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Gail
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Gail » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:36 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Gail wrote:I imagine this should lead people to prefer IUB at 120k over UIUC with maybe 45k or sticker. UIUC gives you better chances in a bloodbath for Chicago biglaw, but if its as bad as you say, why bother? Why not minimize debt and enjoy a career instead?


Because IUB is not as good as its peers for jobs in general (see law school transparency, 2009 employment graphs, NLJ placement, and logic and reasoning skills). It's not in Indianapolis (where a peer school is located - IUI), and it is not the best school in the state (Notre Dame).

Outside of Indiana, it's not even considered to be better or on par with a wide range of schools in almost every state. That's important to note because it affects how competitive graduates are against graduates from other schools.

However, if you don't want to be in Indiana, don't go to Indiana.


True. But what is worth more? The small bump in employment that you might get going to another school or the lack of debt?

Either way, most of those who are employed will make 45k to 65k. (90% at Indiana will and 85% at Illinois will)

Only the Indiana grads with that scholarship are going to be able to say that they can live a fairly nice, middle class lifestyle off of that though.


I really think it depends on how much risk you want to take. You have a 5 - 10% better chance at a peer school of getting biglaw. Is that worth three times the amount in loans?

wildhaggis
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby wildhaggis » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:39 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:IU is Ohio State with better medians.

Illinois is WUSTL with worse medians

So credited.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:40 pm

Gail wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Gail wrote:I imagine this should lead people to prefer IUB at 120k over UIUC with maybe 45k or sticker. UIUC gives you better chances in a bloodbath for Chicago biglaw, but if its as bad as you say, why bother? Why not minimize debt and enjoy a career instead?


Because IUB is not as good as its peers for jobs in general (see law school transparency, 2009 employment graphs, NLJ placement, and logic and reasoning skills). It's not in Indianapolis (where a peer school is located - IUI), and it is not the best school in the state (Notre Dame).

Outside of Indiana, it's not even considered to be better or on par with a wide range of schools in almost every state. That's important to note because it affects how competitive graduates are against graduates from other schools.

However, if you don't want to be in Indiana, don't go to Indiana.


True. But what is worth more? The small bump in employment that you might get going to another school or the lack of debt?

Either way, most of those who are employed will make 45k to 65k. (90% at Indiana will and 85% at Illinois will)

Only the Indiana grads with that scholarship are going to be able to say that they can live a fairly nice, middle class lifestyle off of that though.


I really think it depends on how much risk you want to take. You have a 5 - 10% better chance at a peer school of getting biglaw. Is that worth three times the amount in loans?

IUB is about 15-20K more expensive, so I think the schools are basically equal at around a 50K scholarshp

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Gail
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Gail » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:53 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:
Gail wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Gail wrote:I imagine this should lead people to prefer IUB at 120k over UIUC with maybe 45k or sticker. UIUC gives you better chances in a bloodbath for Chicago biglaw, but if its as bad as you say, why bother? Why not minimize debt and enjoy a career instead?


Because IUB is not as good as its peers for jobs in general (see law school transparency, 2009 employment graphs, NLJ placement, and logic and reasoning skills). It's not in Indianapolis (where a peer school is located - IUI), and it is not the best school in the state (Notre Dame).

Outside of Indiana, it's not even considered to be better or on par with a wide range of schools in almost every state. That's important to note because it affects how competitive graduates are against graduates from other schools.

However, if you don't want to be in Indiana, don't go to Indiana.


True. But what is worth more? The small bump in employment that you might get going to another school or the lack of debt?

Either way, most of those who are employed will make 45k to 65k. (90% at Indiana will and 85% at Illinois will)

Only the Indiana grads with that scholarship are going to be able to say that they can live a fairly nice, middle class lifestyle off of that though.


I really think it depends on how much risk you want to take. You have a 5 - 10% better chance at a peer school of getting biglaw. Is that worth three times the amount in loans?

IUB is about 15-20K more expensive, so I think the schools are basically equal at around a 50K scholarshp


In tuition? Well. If you get that 120k you'll probably be spending 15-20k a year, yes, but if someone with the kind of numbers that are baseline for the 120k will pay (at the cheapest) like 41k at Illinois (imagine they get a 15k scholarship and are in-state).

In this case its 120k vs 60k with 5-10% better chance of actually being able to pay off 120k in debt in 10 years.


If scholarship money is equal, then no doubt go UIUC. But scholarship money won't be equal, if you can get a full ride from UIUC, you shouldn't be going to either IUB or UIUC.

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20130312
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby 20130312 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:55 pm

Gail wrote:In tuition? Well. If you get that 120k you'll probably be spending 15-20k a year, yes, but if someone with the kind of numbers that are baseline for the 120k will pay (at the cheapest) like 41k at Illinois (imagine they get a 15k scholarship and are in-state).

In this case its 120k vs 60k with 5-10% better chance of actually being able to pay off 120k in debt in 10 years.


If scholarship money is equal, then no doubt go UIUC. But scholarship money won't be equal, if you can get a full ride from UIUC, you shouldn't be going to either IUB or UIUC.


I like how you argue for lack of indebtedness first, but then at the end imply that you should turn down a full ride for a better school.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:58 pm

Gail wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
Gail wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Because IUB is not as good as its peers for jobs in general (see law school transparency, 2009 employment graphs, NLJ placement, and logic and reasoning skills). It's not in Indianapolis (where a peer school is located - IUI), and it is not the best school in the state (Notre Dame).

Outside of Indiana, it's not even considered to be better or on par with a wide range of schools in almost every state. That's important to note because it affects how competitive graduates are against graduates from other schools.

However, if you don't want to be in Indiana, don't go to Indiana.


True. But what is worth more? The small bump in employment that you might get going to another school or the lack of debt?

Either way, most of those who are employed will make 45k to 65k. (90% at Indiana will and 85% at Illinois will)

Only the Indiana grads with that scholarship are going to be able to say that they can live a fairly nice, middle class lifestyle off of that though.


I really think it depends on how much risk you want to take. You have a 5 - 10% better chance at a peer school of getting biglaw. Is that worth three times the amount in loans?

IUB is about 15-20K more expensive, so I think the schools are basically equal at around a 50K scholarshp


In tuition? Well. If you get that 120k you'll probably be spending 15-20k a year, yes, but if someone with the kind of numbers that are baseline for the 120k will pay (at the cheapest) like 41k at Illinois (imagine they get a 15k scholarship and are in-state).

In this case its 120k vs 60k with 5-10% better chance of actually being able to pay off 120k in debt in 10 years.


If scholarship money is equal, then no doubt go UIUC. But scholarship money won't be equal, if you can get a full ride from UIUC, you shouldn't be going to either IUB or UIUC.

I think Illinois has given 90K to several ppl with the 120K at IUB, in which case, I would advocate taking Illinois. I would even consider 60-75K at Illinois over 120K at IU

WSJ_Law
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby WSJ_Law » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:02 pm

ahduth wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:OP currently works or has worked as a paralegal in Chicago, but has not specified that he/she is seeking government work or only Chicago. The Villanova reference should be obvious that it was in response to another post about USNews rankings.


You're kind of a crappy sniper poster who kills threads without being seen. Maybe you have a job in Illinois's government after all?

You still don't get into UIUC however, sorry.


If you get a 163 you should get a scholarship to UIUC hth

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Gail
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Gail » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:04 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:I think Illinois has given 90K to several ppl with the 120K at IUB, in which case, I would advocate taking Illinois. I would even consider 60-75K at Illinois over 120K at IU


I agree if they're still handing those out.

InGoodFaith wrote:I like how you argue for lack of indebtedness first, but then at the end imply that you should turn down a full ride for a better school.


You're right. It is a contradiction. I'm a dumb, panicky 0L. So all of this is subjective to put it nicely (I'm talking out of my ass if you want to be honest). However, I think that a 30-50% chance at BigLaw from Northwestern at sticker (maybe?) is better than a 15-19% chance from Illinois with a full ride. Even then I'd be apprehensive - but such is my third biggest personality flaw.




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