IU v. UIUC

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northside
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IU v. UIUC

Postby northside » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:18 pm

Are there any solid differences, or is it a matter of geography?

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Kabuo
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Kabuo » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:27 pm

Well, IU has the higher LSAT median :P . UIUC will probably still be better for getting a job.

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Blindmelon
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:37 pm

northside wrote:Are there any solid differences, or is it a matter of geography?


Yes. Neither will be an easy time getting into a big-firm. Location and cost are the considerations here.

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biglaw$
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby biglaw$ » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:41 pm

Similar schools. UIUC has been rocked by scandals which may negate its stronger numbers in Chicago. ND is a strong alternative to these schools.

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Opie
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Opie » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:28 pm

biglaw$ wrote:Similar schools. UIUC has been rocked by scandals which may negate its stronger numbers in Chicago. ND is a strong alternative to these schools.


+1

Iowa might be appropriate as well if you are okay with slightly different markets.

CanadianWolf
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:29 pm

Need more specifics about your situation.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:32 pm

Regardless of the new scandal, UIUC is still a better school than IU, unless you want Indy midlaw

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blurbz
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby blurbz » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:39 pm

If you want biglaw, I'd still bet on Illinois for next year. Firms aren't going to STOP going to Illinois AND START going to IU/Iowa as a result of the scandals at Illinois. If you're waiting another year or more, check out the OCI lists at all three schools. I'm willing to bet that it stays the same: Illinois >>>>IU>>Iowa.

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biglaw$
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby biglaw$ » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:20 pm

[quote="JamMasterJ"]Regardless of the new scandal, UIUC is still a better school than IU, unless you want Indy midlaw[/quote

Agreed at sticker. What if IU was substantially cheaper?

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romothesavior
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby romothesavior » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:43 pm

biglaw$ wrote:Agreed at sticker. What if IU was substantially cheaper?

Going to any Midwestern T20 at sticker is incredibly foolish. The cost of these schools is very high, and the job prospects do not justify that cost.

Personally, I would only go to one of these schools with a near full ride or full ride. And this is coming from someone who goes to a T20 for about a 60% scholarship, and realizes that it was a mistake. I have a job, and I still think that looking back, I should have demanded more money or gone elsewhere. It is easy to look back now and say things worked out for me, but it was really serendipitous that it did.

If IU was substantially cheaper and you wanted to stay in the Midwest, it might make sense to take it over UIUC. But there is a decent gap between the schools' job placement, so buyer beware. The difference won't be apparent for the majority of the class, but the top 15-25% have a hell of a lot better shot at an NLJ 250 job at UIUC than they do at IUB.

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S-IV
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby S-IV » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:56 pm

(Please note my slight bias toward Indiana as a current Indianapolis resident, but native of Chicago.. ok then maybe I'm sort of objective. lol)

Chicago is terribly over-saturated with lawyers. I, personally, do not see UIUC competing with Chicago's schools when two of them are T14 with students who are still unemployed. Where will UIUC students fit in that aren't at maybe top ten percent of their class.

Yes, IUB's reach is basically Indianapolis Mid-Law. However, UIUC doesn't even have that going for it. It has fairly weak prospects in Chicago and then opportunities in..... Springfield??

Notre Dame, to me, is the obvious winner here if you can afford it. Decent reach to Chicago, I would imagine takes a fair share of Indianapolis as well.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:03 pm

romothesavior wrote:
biglaw$ wrote:Agreed at sticker. What if IU was substantially cheaper?

Going to any Midwestern T20 at sticker is incredibly foolish. The cost of these schools is very high, and the job prospects do not justify that cost.

Personally, I would only go to one of these schools with a near full ride or full ride. And this is coming from someone who goes to a T20 for about a 60% scholarship, and realizes that it was a mistake. I have a job, and I still think that looking back, I should have demanded more money or gone elsewhere. It is easy to look back now and say things worked out for me, but it was really serendipitous that it did.

If IU was substantially cheaper and you wanted to stay in the Midwest, it might make sense to take it over UIUC. But there is a decent gap between the schools' job placement, so buyer beware. The difference won't be apparent for the majority of the class, but the top 15-25% have a hell of a lot better shot at an NLJ 250 job at UIUC than they do at IUB.

yeah, I wouldn't go to any of these at sticker. I would have trepidation at going to Northwestern at sticker too.

WSJ_Law
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby WSJ_Law » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:08 pm

Both are not good decisions. IUB is widely overranked and places like a T2, and UIUC is getting headfucked by outrageous scandals and has an incoming class on par with Brooklyn LS.

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romothesavior
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby romothesavior » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:18 pm

S-IV wrote:(Please note my slight bias toward Indiana as a current Indianapolis resident, but native of Chicago.. ok then maybe I'm sort of objective. lol)

Chicago is terribly over-saturated with lawyers. I, personally, do not see UIUC competing with Chicago's schools when two of them are T14 with students who are still unemployed. Where will UIUC students fit in that aren't at maybe top ten percent of their class.

Yes, IUB's reach is basically Indianapolis Mid-Law. However, UIUC doesn't even have that going for it. It has fairly weak prospects in Chicago and then opportunities in..... Springfield??

Notre Dame, to me, is the obvious winner here if you can afford it. Decent reach to Chicago, I would imagine takes a fair share of Indianapolis as well.

First of all, UIUC has far more geographic reach than Chicago. For those who are from the region, Illinois competes just fine in places like St. Louis and Indianapolis, and is competitive with other T20s in the region for placement in other geographic locations. Illinois has far more geographic reach than IUB. You are way off base with your characterization of Illinois' geographic placement.

Also, Chicago sucks right now, but Illinois still places more people into Chicago biglaw than IUB place into Indy "biglaw." For one thing, even if IUB dominated Indy, it isn't that big of a market. Despite being competitive, Chicago still has far, far more SA spots. Second of all, IUB doesn't dominate Indy. Indy really isn't that insular compared to other Midwestern mid-sized markets (STL, KC, Cincinnati, Detroit, etc.), so being the top school for Indianapolis placement really isn't that much of an advantage.

Traditionally, Illinois' NLJ job placement is double that of IUB. I'm not advocating for either school, as I probably would avoid both like the plague ITE absent a full ride, especially after the recent scandal at Illinois. But your implying that IUB is superior to or even on the same level as UIUC is just plain wrong. If I am outside the top 10%, I'd much rather be at UIUC. Illinois is a far better school, and the numbers back that up.
Last edited by romothesavior on Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

northside
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby northside » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:20 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Need more specifics about your situation.


I'm not looking into BigLaw. I want to do Civil Rights and already work as a legal assistant in Chicago. I don't have the numbers for UChicago or NU (164/3.9) and have heard disastrous things about how annoyingly easy DePaul/Loyola/Kent are and how often classes tend to have a number of people who quite honestly, just should not have gone to law school. John Marshall is completely out of the question.

I want to go to the best school, not only for civil rights, but just in general. Undergrad was a breeze for me, thankfully I had a scholarship and did not have to pay but had I been paying I wouldn't have been able to take it. I'm an academic at heart and extremely competitive and thrive in an environment where I have to work and so I want to be around people at the same level, or higher. New York is an option, but the market is so saturated and to be honest I was set on Dozo for the longest time but according to TLS Dozo is just Jewish for DePaul.

I know, I know, I know I should go to DePaul/Loyola/Kent or retake but paying for UChicago and Northwestern aren't really options either had I gotten a higher score (which I was on PTs).

To sum it up, I'm looking for the least amount of debt (for someone civil rights focused) and the least likelihood of suffering through ever having to hear someone call Kant "Can't" again.

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romothesavior
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby romothesavior » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:24 pm

Retake. That is a fantastic GPA, don't waste it.

Also, IBR/LRAP actually make "going to the best school you get into" and paying sticker more worth it. Say you rocked out a high 160s/170s type of score and could get into a T10. Sure, you'd have to take out a lot of debt, but the combination of 10 year forgiveness + strong LRAP programs means that the difference between 70k in debt (which is what a full ride will still cost you for COL) and 200k in debt is negligible. You wouldn't be paying off either one.

But if these are really your only options, take UIUC. Hey, you are above their medians, so maybe you'll get some scholly money.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:27 pm

romothesavior wrote:Retake. That is a fantastic GPA, don't waste it.

Also, IBR/LRAP actually make "going to the best school you get into" and paying sticker more worth it. Say you rocked out a high 160s/170s type of score and could get into a T10. Sure, you'd have to take out a lot of debt, but the combination of 10 year forgiveness + strong LRAP programs means that the difference between 70k in debt (which is what a full ride will still cost you for COL) and 200k in debt is negligible. You wouldn't be paying off either one.

But if these are really your only options, take UIUC. Hey, you are above their medians, so maybe you'll get some scholly money.

yeah, retake

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Opie
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Opie » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:34 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Retake. That is a fantastic GPA, don't waste it.

Also, IBR/LRAP actually make "going to the best school you get into" and paying sticker more worth it. Say you rocked out a high 160s/170s type of score and could get into a T10. Sure, you'd have to take out a lot of debt, but the combination of 10 year forgiveness + strong LRAP programs means that the difference between 70k in debt (which is what a full ride will still cost you for COL) and 200k in debt is negligible. You wouldn't be paying off either one.

But if these are really your only options, take UIUC. Hey, you are above their medians, so maybe you'll get some scholly money.

yeah, retake


+1 you only need a couple of points for Northwestern.

northside
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby northside » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:36 pm

That is honestly the last thing in the entire world that I want to do. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the deadline has already passed--no?

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IAFG
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby IAFG » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:40 pm

northside wrote:That is honestly the last thing in the entire world that I want to do. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the deadline has already passed--no?

Then wait another year. Never go to a school that can't get a median grad the job you want. Also it's generally advised to make sure someone will pay you to do the job you want.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:44 pm

IAFG wrote:
northside wrote:That is honestly the last thing in the entire world that I want to do. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the deadline has already passed--no?

Then wait another year. Never go to a school that can't get a median grad the job you want. Also it's generally advised to make sure someone will pay you to do the job you want.

yeah, wait a year. If you're not willing to do the best you can to put yourself in the best position for your future, you are being dumb

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romothesavior
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby romothesavior » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:45 pm

TLS is replete with examples of posters who took a year off, studied hard for the LSAT, and scored significantly higher. All of them would tell you that the opportunities that became available as a result of retaking made the decision to wait a year infinitely worth it. The difference between IUB and a school like Northwestern really cannot be overstated. UIUC is roughly twice as good for placement as IUB, and Northwestern is about twice as good at placement as UIUC (based on NLJ 250 data, which is the best metric for placement, not only for firms but for employment generally). The gap between a school like IUB and Northwestern is simply massive.

I have never heard a single person say they regret taking a year off and re-taking. On the other hand, I've heard dozens say the opposite (including myself). Take that FWIW. A few LSAT points could mean tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship money, or even could be the difference between graduating employed vs. graduating unemployed. I know it is the last thing in the entire world you want to do, but it is absolutely worth considering.

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Opie
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Opie » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:09 pm

Not to mention the bonus of adding a year of WE and possibly saving some money to live off of in school.

northside
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby northside » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:13 pm

Not exactly sure how I'm going to land a job that will save me any money with a double philosophy major...but I see what all of you are saying.

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Opie
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Re: IU v. UIUC

Postby Opie » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:19 pm

Do americorps or something if you have to. Get a roomate or live at home. Eat nothing but ramen. Most of all, read the LSAT advice threads on TLS and FOLLOW THEM. I bet you can get to 170+.




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