From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Big Shrimpin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:52 pm

anewaphorist wrote:Of course it's a complicated calculus, but that doesn't mean that you should expect midlaw or doc review if you're not at HYS. For instance, NYC firms hire most of their new associates from Columbia and then NYU, Chicago from UChicago (and, to a lesser extent, Northwestern), and D.C, as we're discussing, is a bit of a mixed bag. Within those markets, other schools place well (i.e., Duke in NYC, UVA in D.C.). Tempering your expectations is a necessity at every school, even at HYS. Just ask the bottom 5% of those classes. Your posts have stressed the arbitrary nature of the distinctions you've made, but then you combine (a) certain schools are golden tickets with (b) the hiring process is complicated. Non-sequitur much?


Eh, you're putting words in my mouth re expecting midlaw/doc review.

So I made the distinction re HYS in passing once or twice. I also have a penchant for sarcasm and hyperbole. Accouterments aside, tempering expectations and risk management should necessarily go into one's school choice. I think we can agree on that. :wink:

anewaphorist
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby anewaphorist » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:58 pm

Fair enough. Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but I guess it just seems like EVERYONE is telling me that law school is a huge gamble, and especially, as you seemed to intimate, any LS outside the T3 at that. And I feel like I'm a strong applicant (3.98/170). Now, do I want BigLaw or a prestigious gov't job? Of course! But would people like me consider ourselves failures, would we drown in debt only to end up alone and friendless by taking a secondary legal market position or T25 academia? Of course not! Especially if some of those lower T-14 schools throw dough our way, alleviating some of the financial burden. I don't want to feel like my pending H/S rejections are the death knell of my chances at "greatness" or "prestige," and I think I speak for a certain majority of similarly situated people.

FWIW, I think it's a valuable undertaking to motivate prospectives to temper their expectations, especially if they're considering TTT. I guess I just took issue with the way you sort of lumped certain schools and prestige together. We all know that students from T50 can land those swanky jobs if they finish top of their respective classes. No one, of course, can expect to do that in LS, regardless of where they attend, so I think that's what we should be focusing on. People in the T10, IMHO, are generally fine to expect a return on the debt they incur, excluding, of course, those at the bottom of the class. But, as we've established, that caveat applies to even the best schools. It's just that the prestige-disqualifying percentile is much smaller, respectively, at HYS.

If the desire is there, we can go back to talking about how much GW sucks (or doesn't, for those top students there).
Last edited by anewaphorist on Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Big Shrimpin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:02 pm

anewaphorist wrote:I'm playing off the false dichotomy shrimpin made: that a non-"prestigous" job does not justify going to law school and equates to a bad decision. The set of these "non-prestigious" jobs (lower-tier teaching, midlaw, in-house, and, the bottom of the chain, doc review) was implied to have equal weight in deterring a person from attending LS, and, by the same token, prestigious gov't work and biglaw were revered as the sole worthwhile jobs.



Whoa, bro, again, putting words in my mouth. I'm choking here.

No one school is necessarily better than another because each school is populated by students with different goals. To be sure, some of those same students went to LS for the wrong reason, and for that distinctions between schools along certain lines can be made. Moreover, it is for those same reasons that I troll TLS in an attempt to get 0Ls/1Ls to temper their expectations. Ultimately, choosing a school has to be a function of one's own expectations. If prospective students properly temper their expectations, then they won't have anyone to blame but themselves. There's nothing wrong with any one person's particular goals for going to LS, so long as they know what they're getting themselves into. I certainly empathize with those who fail to get what they set out to accomplish. I'm not heartless, dude.

RE your last poast. You're a strong applicant, and you seem like you have the right reason to go to LS. I don't doubt it'll work out for you, but then again, you don't need my reassurance because you've already done your homework. Many have not, and for that I poast. :wink:

Again, OP, sequester yourself in the basement stacks (where, being around 60-70 feet underground, you can sort of feel the heat from the center of the earth), and crush those exams. Good things come to those who persist.

HeavenWood
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:12 pm

anewaphorist wrote:Fair enough. Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but I guess it just seems like EVERYONE is telling me that law school is a huge gamble, and especially, as you seemed to intimate, any LS outside the T3 at that. And I feel like I'm a strong applicant (3.98/170). Now, do I want BigLaw or a prestigious gov't job? Of course! But would people like me consider ourselves failures, would we drown in debt only to end up alone and friendless by taking a secondary legal market position or T25 academia? Of course not! Especially if some of those lower T-14 schools throw dough our way, alleviating some of the financial burden. I don't want to feel like my pending H/S rejections are the death knell of my chances at "greatness" or "prestige," and I think I speak for a certain majority of similarly situated people.

If the desire is there, we can go back to talking about how much GW sucks (or doesn't, for those top students there).

Your numbers = $$ at one or more of MVPDN, plus NYU sticker, plus a plausible shot at Columbia/Chicago. I would say you're in good shape.

anewaphorist
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby anewaphorist » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:18 pm

Thanks, Heaven, that's the attitude I've taken! I guess I just wanted readers of this thread to know that they can shoot for/expect/whateverwordyouwanttouse a great job if they can land any T14 institution. Now, not everyone will get one, of course, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take out significant debt for one of those institutions if you're prepared to work hard, and that's sort of the assumption I noticed earlier in Shrimpin's post. He's explained himself more fully now, which I think benefits everyone who's getting ready to make the tough LS decision. Unfortunately, under capitalism, none of us is immune to this risk/reward calculation, and it seemed worthwhile to define the reward part of the equation as potentially more than just V100 Biglaw or a gangsta government gig.

KamaalTheAbstract
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby KamaalTheAbstract » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:22 pm

I wrote a long post about how my group of friends have fared at GW but decided against posting it. Long story short is that its possible to get a job after missing the shitty OCI boat a GW. 3 of my friends have done it and one has failed at it. Jobs aren't the highest paying but its better than nothing. The small firm jobs they got start at around 65k. You need to either stop complaining and find some place to work part time at in hopes of getting an offer or drop out. The moral of the story is, GW is in fact not that great of a school. None of the schools outside the T-14 really are. Its not worth attending at sticker. It is not worse than American, etc and I'm pretty sure there are NLJ 250 statistics to support this but that doesn't make it a good decision.

GermX
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby GermX » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:50 pm

^ Who said I'm not doing anything or doing part time jobs etc...? I'm so worried I even took a job working for a judge during the winter break instead of going back home.

I know this thread has sidetracked into a "non-t14 =fail" thread. But I just want to say that there's A LOT of schools outside the t-14 which are pretty great. Fordham is definitely one of them. And GW simply put is not. It's a shitty, crappy school, and most of us now in the top 20% are hoping we can get a 65k/yr job if we're lucky. This is not a good school. It's actually amazing how horrifyingly bad it is. Even the atmosphere is just pure shit.

It's not just jobs prospects. Most of their professors are terrible. Here are some examples:

They have a torts professor who spends the entire semester without once explaining what a tort is, and then suddenly in the last 2 classes he releases "videos" explaining intentional torts (which he never did all semester, I mean literally never even talked about it) which incidentally make up 90% of his exam. What does he actually talk about the whole time? Stories of his back in Chicago. A whole lot of products liability, which is 5% of his exam. And when I say products liability, don't mistake it for a discussion on the rules and how to apply them. It's actually more of a "did you guys hear what Ford did? OMG!" discussion.

They have a constitutional law professor who is literally 85 years old. He is so fucking old that he can't even tell when people are in and out of his class. On his exam, he writes a giant hypothetical then asks "what is standing?" and that's it. That's how hilarious his class is. The people who got As in his class figured out where he likes his answers from (he wrote a supplement that's an exact copy of his course).

Their LRW program? Two words: SPOON FEEDING. Last year, I was literally spoon fed all the major cases, everything, and hilariously they said "you need to spend weeks on research!!!" It took me 5 minutes to Shepardize all the cases you gave me and come up with some new ones to make it look like I did work.

They need to stop bringing in people from Harvard who look down at GW students and find some professors who actually care. I'm seriously not kidding, every single professor has made a "joke" about how we will all be jobless and in debt crying, and everyone laughs, nobody realizes how serious these guys are actually being. It's like someone coming up to you and jokingly saying "your mom is going to die tomorrow" and you crack out loud laughing, even though he's totally right.

dudders
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby dudders » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:45 pm

GermX wrote:^ Who said I'm not doing anything or doing part time jobs etc...? I'm so worried I even took a job working for a judge during the winter break instead of going back home.

I know this thread has sidetracked into a "non-t14 =fail" thread. But I just want to say that there's A LOT of schools outside the t-14 which are pretty great. Fordham is definitely one of them. And GW simply put is not. It's a shitty, crappy school, and most of us now in the top 20% are hoping we can get a 65k/yr job if we're lucky. This is not a good school. It's actually amazing how horrifyingly bad it is. Even the atmosphere is just pure shit.

It's not just jobs prospects. Most of their professors are terrible. Here are some examples:

They have a torts professor who spends the entire semester without once explaining what a tort is, and then suddenly in the last 2 classes he releases "videos" explaining intentional torts (which he never did all semester, I mean literally never even talked about it) which incidentally make up 90% of his exam. What does he actually talk about the whole time? Stories of his back in Chicago. A whole lot of products liability, which is 5% of his exam. And when I say products liability, don't mistake it for a discussion on the rules and how to apply them. It's actually more of a "did you guys hear what Ford did? OMG!" discussion.

They have a constitutional law professor who is literally 85 years old. He is so fucking old that he can't even tell when people are in and out of his class. On his exam, he writes a giant hypothetical then asks "what is standing?" and that's it. That's how hilarious his class is. The people who got As in his class figured out where he likes his answers from (he wrote a supplement that's an exact copy of his course).

Their LRW program? Two words: SPOON FEEDING. Last year, I was literally spoon fed all the major cases, everything, and hilariously they said "you need to spend weeks on research!!!" It took me 5 minutes to Shepardize all the cases you gave me and come up with some new ones to make it look like I did work.

They need to stop bringing in people from Harvard who look down at GW students and find some professors who actually care. I'm seriously not kidding, every single professor has made a "joke" about how we will all be jobless and in debt crying, and everyone laughs, nobody realizes how serious these guys are actually being. It's like someone coming up to you and jokingly saying "your mom is going to die tomorrow" and you crack out loud laughing, even though he's totally right.


Section 11. Except my LRW professor sucked/got fired.

HyeMart
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby HyeMart » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:16 am

OP's posts are simply not true. :roll:
you mad bro? why don't you compare some hard numbers?
no school below 20 does better than GW in terms of job placement.
OP struck out of OCI and is crying
classic symptom bro, your projecting blame after failure.

why don't you mention the prof's names you talk about? :roll:
I know the torts prof your talking about is Turley, one of the most cited professor in the country.


Quoted from a post by OP from last semester:
Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:55 pm


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GW Law is worth sticker. Hands down.


and besides a post history of shitting on Fordham, heres another piece of gold from OP


The funny thing is, romo is actually heading to GW and yet he heaps all this hate on it. Btw dude, I see you still haven't looked up the definition of sarcasm.

I suggest you do=).

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Veyron
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Veyron » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:37 am

HeavenWood wrote:
anewaphorist wrote:Fair enough. Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but I guess it just seems like EVERYONE is telling me that law school is a huge gamble, and especially, as you seemed to intimate, any LS outside the T3 at that. And I feel like I'm a strong applicant (3.98/170). Now, do I want BigLaw or a prestigious gov't job? Of course! But would people like me consider ourselves failures, would we drown in debt only to end up alone and friendless by taking a secondary legal market position or T25 academia? Of course not! Especially if some of those lower T-14 schools throw dough our way, alleviating some of the financial burden. I don't want to feel like my pending H/S rejections are the death knell of my chances at "greatness" or "prestige," and I think I speak for a certain majority of similarly situated people.

If the desire is there, we can go back to talking about how much GW sucks (or doesn't, for those top students there).

Your numbers = $$ at one or more of MVPDN, plus NYU sticker, plus a plausible shot at Columbia/Chicago. I would say you're in good shape.


Bro, your underselling the man. $ From across the non T3 T-10, possible admission to Stttttanford.

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Blindmelon
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:07 am

HyeMart wrote:no school below 20 does better than GW in terms of job placement.
OP struck out of OCI and is crying
classic symptom bro, your projecting blame after failure.


BC and BU do better. Also, Fordham is about the same.

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top30man
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby top30man » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:30 am

Blindmelon wrote:
HyeMart wrote:no school below 20 does better than GW in terms of job placement.
OP struck out of OCI and is crying
classic symptom bro, your projecting blame after failure.


BC and BU do better. Also, Fordham is about the same.

This.

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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:48 am

top30man wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
HyeMart wrote:no school below 20 does better than GW in terms of job placement.
OP struck out of OCI and is crying
classic symptom bro, your projecting blame after failure.


BC and BU do better. Also, Fordham is about the same.

This.


Actually Fordham has historically been better (historically UCLA/USC/Fordham/BC/BU were close enough to put them together, although now Fordham seems to be a little below them). Notre Dame is generally about the same as GW.

OP: How do most of GW's grads go to government? I don't recall GW placing a lot of grads in government.

jarofsoup
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby jarofsoup » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:06 am

I do not think this is just GW. Suppose to be a great school with a strong reputation. I think it is something that I am feeling too. The "why are there so many freaking law students here when there are not that many jobs."

GW passes the snobby industry test and it sure the hell has a lot of Grads in the big law firms. It ain't Harvad, but it has a reputation.

Have you thought about expanding your search outside of the DC metro? Do you have any ties outside of the D.C. metro. I am not arguing with you about GW just saying I have the same feeling as you towards my school right now and it is partially because the economy is so bad and things feel a bit hopeless.

HyeMart
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby HyeMart » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:23 am

Blindmelon wrote:
HyeMart wrote:no school below 20 does better than GW in terms of job placement.
OP struck out of OCI and is crying
classic symptom bro, your projecting blame after failure.


BC and BU do better. Also, Fordham is about the same.


evidence? oh i forgot, you go to BU :roll:

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Blindmelon
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:36 am

HyeMart wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
HyeMart wrote:no school below 20 does better than GW in terms of job placement.
OP struck out of OCI and is crying
classic symptom bro, your projecting blame after failure.


BC and BU do better. Also, Fordham is about the same.


evidence? oh i forgot, you go to BU :roll:


BC 34%, BU 30%, Fordham 26%, GW 25% http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/tag/nlj-250/. Thats using "hard numbers" that you cited wrongly before.
BC > BU > GW = Fordham. About 10% better placement by BC is not a small difference.

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Duke Silver
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Duke Silver » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:38 am

I love that you asked him for evidence and then tried to discredit him for going to BU when you posted a statement with no evidence about the school you attend. Um...fail.

Blindmelon wrote:
HyeMart wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
HyeMart wrote:no school below 20 does better than GW in terms of job placement.
OP struck out of OCI and is crying
classic symptom bro, your projecting blame after failure.


BC and BU do better. Also, Fordham is about the same.


evidence? oh i forgot, you go to BU :roll:


BC 34%, BU 30%, Fordham 26%, GW 25% http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/tag/nlj-250/. Thats using "hard numbers" that you cited wrongly before.
BC > BU > GW = Fordham. About 10% better placement by BC is not a small difference.

HyeMart
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby HyeMart » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:40 pm

GW is known for attracting students interested in government /public interest and they consistently place over 10% more in government/pi jobs than BU, not to mention DC, GW's main market, has more non250 jobs that pay market

tennisking88
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby tennisking88 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:43 pm

HyeMart wrote:GW is known for attracting students interested in government /public interest and they consistently place over 10% more in government/pi jobs than BU


This sadly means very little when the gov't is in a hiring freeze with Congress pondering further cuts.

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top30man
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby top30man » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:45 pm

HyeMart wrote:GW is known for attracting students interested in government /public interest and they consistently place over 10% more in government/pi jobs than BU, not to mention DC, GW's main market, has more non250 jobs that pay market

Ok. But this thread is focusing on private practice. I do not think you can argue that BU/BC place a lower percent of students into NLJ250 firms. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
Im not really interested in either school. Just saying, facts are facts.

GermX
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby GermX » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:01 pm

The hilarity of HyeMart's post is that if he read what I wrote, he would note that I said specifically that GW is awesome in placing people in government/PI jobs. Then I mentioned that those jobs don't actually pay you money. They're not jobs, its more like indentured servitude.

Btw, pulling up my old posts back when I was a loser 0L who didn't know he was going to get fucked by picking GW over Fordham is just stupid. This post is based on the experience of having been a student at GW. The old posts are based on the experience of being optimistic and excited at attending GW.

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vanwinkle
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:08 pm

GermX wrote:They have a torts professor who spends the entire semester without once explaining what a tort is, and then suddenly in the last 2 classes he releases "videos" explaining intentional torts (which he never did all semester, I mean literally never even talked about it) which incidentally make up 90% of his exam. What does he actually talk about the whole time? Stories of his back in Chicago. A whole lot of products liability, which is 5% of his exam. And when I say products liability, don't mistake it for a discussion on the rules and how to apply them. It's actually more of a "did you guys hear what Ford did? OMG!" discussion.

Dude, this shit happens everywhere. Law professors are not hired on their teaching ability. Here at HLS, when a couple students learned I was a transfer, their first reaction was to ask, "Are the professors better where you were?" It's a crapshoot everywhere. Law schools have a whole bunch of profs who happen to be really good at teaching and enjoy it, and also a whole bunch who hate it or suck at it or who don't even have the basic people skills necessary to interact with their students. I got lucky with most of my 1L profs, but my Torts experience wasn't that much better than yours.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:11 pm

GermX wrote:The hilarity of HyeMart's post is that if he read what I wrote, he would note that I said specifically that GW is awesome in placing people in government/PI jobs. Then I mentioned that those jobs don't actually pay you money. They're not jobs, its more like indentured servitude.

Btw, pulling up my old posts back when I was a loser 0L who didn't know he was going to get fucked by picking GW over Fordham is just stupid. This post is based on the experience of having been a student at GW. The old posts are based on the experience of being optimistic and excited at attending GW.


What areas did you bid on? Mostly DC or NYC (or neither)?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:12 pm

Germx - You're top 20% of the class of 2013 and not only struck out, but know several others in top 20% who also struck out?

That's seriously rough. I think people reading your posts should note that $65,000 in DC/NYC/LA/SF is essentially equivalent to ~$40,000 in most secondary markets.


What do you believe caused this? Was it a lack of employers at OCI or were employers in DC simply not interested?

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Blindmelon
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:13 pm

HyeMart wrote:GW is known for attracting students interested in government /public interest and they consistently place over 10% more in government/pi jobs than BU, not to mention DC, GW's main market, has more non250 jobs that pay market


10% more in PI than BU? Yea, thats not true either. Also, DC does not have more non-NLJ 250 firms. Boston has a ton as well.

Then again, I'm feeding a troll and this is silly.




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