From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

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Younger Abstention
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Younger Abstention » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:36 am

Minute differences (which change yearly) between the placement rankings of GW, Fordham, BC, BU aside, the chance that any single student's experience job-wise would be notably different depending on which of the four they attend is ludicrous. They are peer schools. i.e. If you didn't get biglaw from GW, chances are you couldn't have gotten either it had you decided to go to BU either. Not at Skadden. Not at Mintz Levin.

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Blindmelon
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:05 am

Younger Abstention wrote:Minute differences (which change yearly) between the placement rankings of GW, Fordham, BC, BU aside, the chance that any single student's experience job-wise would be notably different depending on which of the four they attend is ludicrous. They are peer schools. i.e. If you didn't get biglaw from GW, chances are you couldn't have gotten either it had you decided to go to BU either. Not at Skadden. Not at Mintz Levin.


I half agree with this. All the schools you listed are entirely peers, but I think the bigfirm placement varies between them based on 1) self-selection and more importantly 2) how well their home market is doing. Regional schools goina be regional. When New York boomed, Fordham outplaced the others. As DC gets more competitive, GW moves down. You will likely see a massive dive for BU/BC when the data for 2011 grads comes out as Boston firms had a bloodletting and kept super small summer classes - wouldn't be surprised is Fordham/GW moved ahead that year.

So yea, overall not much different... but year by year it is.

LeBronBBall
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby LeBronBBall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:33 pm

I think it is pretty much the consensus that getting NYC big law job is easier than getting biglaw in DC or Chicago. So, obviously going to Fordham (which places the best into NYC outside T14) is a safer bet than going to GWU or Emory or other T25 school.

Also, George Washington kinda sucks in the sense that they do all pre-select and no lotteries on OCI. I have a friend there who could NOT even get more than 1 biglaw screener interview slot at OCI, and he was just outside top third of his class. He just got rejected by all firms before even having a chance to talk to them and sell his stuff. I personally would rather attend Fordham than George Washington.

Only concern I would have about Fordham is its tuition and cost of living. It really is an expensive investment...and it would absolutely suck if you miss out on biglaw..

dudders
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby dudders » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:46 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:I think it is pretty much the consensus that getting NYC big law job is easier than getting biglaw in DC or Chicago. So, obviously going to Fordham (which places the best into NYC outside T14) is a safer bet than going to GWU or Emory or other T25 school.

Also, George Washington kinda sucks in the sense that they do all pre-select and no lotteries on OCI. I have a friend there who could NOT even get more than 1 biglaw screener interview slot at OCI, and he was just outside top third of his class. He just got rejected by all firms before even having a chance to talk to them and sell his stuff. I personally would rather attend Fordham than George Washington.

Only concern I would have about Fordham is its tuition and cost of living. It really is an expensive investment...and it would absolutely suck if you miss out on biglaw..


There are plenty of people in the top third who got no interviews at OCI because of the all pre-select system. Basically the 20-25 students with the highest GPAs who bid on any particular firm get interviews. This is especially problematic at a school where there are 500 2Ls, and I presume our interview days are just as long (and have just as many slots) as schools with smaller classes.

Younger Abstention
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Younger Abstention » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:59 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Younger Abstention wrote:Minute differences (which change yearly) between the placement rankings of GW, Fordham, BC, BU aside, the chance that any single student's experience job-wise would be notably different depending on which of the four they attend is ludicrous. They are peer schools. i.e. If you didn't get biglaw from GW, chances are you couldn't have gotten either it had you decided to go to BU either. Not at Skadden. Not at Mintz Levin.


I half agree with this. All the schools you listed are entirely peers, but I think the bigfirm placement varies between them based on 1) self-selection and more importantly 2) how well their home market is doing. Regional schools goina be regional. When New York boomed, Fordham outplaced the others. As DC gets more competitive, GW moves down. You will likely see a massive dive for BU/BC when the data for 2011 grads comes out as Boston firms had a bloodletting and kept super small summer classes - wouldn't be surprised is Fordham/GW moved ahead that year.

So yea, overall not much different... but year by year it is.


But wouldn't you say that GW's more national reputation counteracts the subtle home market differences? Whereas Fordham is more regional, but what a region to be in.

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johansantana21
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:07 pm

Younger Abstention wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Younger Abstention wrote:Minute differences (which change yearly) between the placement rankings of GW, Fordham, BC, BU aside, the chance that any single student's experience job-wise would be notably different depending on which of the four they attend is ludicrous. They are peer schools. i.e. If you didn't get biglaw from GW, chances are you couldn't have gotten either it had you decided to go to BU either. Not at Skadden. Not at Mintz Levin.


I half agree with this. All the schools you listed are entirely peers, but I think the bigfirm placement varies between them based on 1) self-selection and more importantly 2) how well their home market is doing. Regional schools goina be regional. When New York boomed, Fordham outplaced the others. As DC gets more competitive, GW moves down. You will likely see a massive dive for BU/BC when the data for 2011 grads comes out as Boston firms had a bloodletting and kept super small summer classes - wouldn't be surprised is Fordham/GW moved ahead that year.

So yea, overall not much different... but year by year it is.


But wouldn't you say that GW's more national reputation counteracts the subtle home market differences? Whereas Fordham is more regional, but what a region to be in.


GW isn't national at all.

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Blindmelon
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:08 pm

Younger Abstention wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Younger Abstention wrote:Minute differences (which change yearly) between the placement rankings of GW, Fordham, BC, BU aside, the chance that any single student's experience job-wise would be notably different depending on which of the four they attend is ludicrous. They are peer schools. i.e. If you didn't get biglaw from GW, chances are you couldn't have gotten either it had you decided to go to BU either. Not at Skadden. Not at Mintz Levin.


I half agree with this. All the schools you listed are entirely peers, but I think the bigfirm placement varies between them based on 1) self-selection and more importantly 2) how well their home market is doing. Regional schools goina be regional. When New York boomed, Fordham outplaced the others. As DC gets more competitive, GW moves down. You will likely see a massive dive for BU/BC when the data for 2011 grads comes out as Boston firms had a bloodletting and kept super small summer classes - wouldn't be surprised is Fordham/GW moved ahead that year.

So yea, overall not much different... but year by year it is.


But wouldn't you say that GW's more national reputation counteracts the subtle home market differences? Whereas Fordham is more regional, but what a region to be in.


What national reputation? Regional schools are regional regardless of a few stragglers getting jobs in other markets.

MrAnon
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby MrAnon » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:13 pm

People get confused because they think a listing in a national magazine equals a national reputation.

LeBronBBall
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby LeBronBBall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

dudders wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:I think it is pretty much the consensus that getting NYC big law job is easier than getting biglaw in DC or Chicago. So, obviously going to Fordham (which places the best into NYC outside T14) is a safer bet than going to GWU or Emory or other T25 school.

Also, George Washington kinda sucks in the sense that they do all pre-select and no lotteries on OCI. I have a friend there who could NOT even get more than 1 biglaw screener interview slot at OCI, and he was just outside top third of his class. He just got rejected by all firms before even having a chance to talk to them and sell his stuff. I personally would rather attend Fordham than George Washington.

Only concern I would have about Fordham is its tuition and cost of living. It really is an expensive investment...and it would absolutely suck if you miss out on biglaw..


There are plenty of people in the top third who got no interviews at OCI because of the all pre-select system. Basically the 20-25 students with the highest GPAs who bid on any particular firm get interviews. This is especially problematic at a school where there are 500 2Ls, and I presume our interview days are just as long (and have just as many slots) as schools with smaller classes.



Do you attend George Washington? What percentage of kids there got BigLaw jobs?

LeBronBBall
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby LeBronBBall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:20 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Younger Abstention wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Younger Abstention wrote:Minute differences (which change yearly) between the placement rankings of GW, Fordham, BC, BU aside, the chance that any single student's experience job-wise would be notably different depending on which of the four they attend is ludicrous. They are peer schools. i.e. If you didn't get biglaw from GW, chances are you couldn't have gotten either it had you decided to go to BU either. Not at Skadden. Not at Mintz Levin.


I half agree with this. All the schools you listed are entirely peers, but I think the bigfirm placement varies between them based on 1) self-selection and more importantly 2) how well their home market is doing. Regional schools goina be regional. When New York boomed, Fordham outplaced the others. As DC gets more competitive, GW moves down. You will likely see a massive dive for BU/BC when the data for 2011 grads comes out as Boston firms had a bloodletting and kept super small summer classes - wouldn't be surprised is Fordham/GW moved ahead that year.

So yea, overall not much different... but year by year it is.


But wouldn't you say that GW's more national reputation counteracts the subtle home market differences? Whereas Fordham is more regional, but what a region to be in.


GW isn't national at all.


To be fair, George Washington carries more name recognition and portability than Fordham. I mean, most people have never heard of Fordham outside NYC, but many have heard of George Washington. Whether people will think George Washington is actually a school or just a reference to our first president is another question. In terms of legal employment, George Washington placement is pretty regional tho.

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johansantana21
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:21 pm

Dude, no one cares if it's more nationally recognized than Fordham.

It's not national.

It's not a mobile degree.

DC and NYC, just because NYC is easy to get into.

LeBronBBall
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby LeBronBBall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:27 pm

Doesn't GWU at least get some NYC firms at its OCI? If many NYC law firms don't come to GWU to recruit, I suppose the MAJORITY of kids at GWU are really screwed. DC biglaw is tough as shit to get. I know several Harvard kids who went to my undergrad who got shut out of DC biglaw. I guess going to GWU in this economy is the kiss of death. I would avoid it like a plague, and attend Fordham. (btw, i am not attending either school so i have no bias..)

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Big Shrimpin » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:41 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:Doesn't GWU at least get some NYC firms at its OCI?


NYC firms come to GW. I screened with 6 during OCI last year.

buttonpusher
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby buttonpusher » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:48 pm

To be fair, George Washington carries more name recognition and portability than Fordham. I mean, most people have never heard of Fordham outside NYC, but many have heard of George Washington.


Isn't he on the dollar bill? Quarter too I think.

In all seriousness, most GW students who miss Biglaw will be stuck scrounging for shitlaw and/or doc review, just like at any other TTTToilet.

LeBronBBall
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby LeBronBBall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:52 pm

Big Shrimpin wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:Doesn't GWU at least get some NYC firms at its OCI?


NYC firms come to GW. I screened with 6 during OCI last year.


hmm, then why are people saying GWU placement is regional? If GWU has strong enough of placement into NYC biglaw, then it should be a good option i suppose. do you know how many NYC biglaw firms came to OCI to recruit at GWU?

LeBronBBall
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby LeBronBBall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:54 pm

buttonpusher wrote:
To be fair, George Washington carries more name recognition and portability than Fordham. I mean, most people have never heard of Fordham outside NYC, but many have heard of George Washington.


Isn't he on the dollar bill? Quarter too I think.

In all seriousness, most GW students who miss Biglaw will be stuck scrounging for shitlaw and/or doc review, just like at any other TTTToilet.


I think this is what sucks the MOST about legal jobs. It is either you end up with good biglaw jobs, or end up with shit miserable jobs... there just has to be something in-between, i'd hope. this is almost not fair..

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johansantana21
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:55 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:Doesn't GWU at least get some NYC firms at its OCI?


NYC firms come to GW. I screened with 6 during OCI last year.


hmm, then why are people saying GWU placement is regional? If GWU has strong enough of placement into NYC biglaw, then it should be a good option i suppose. do you know how many NYC biglaw firms came to OCI to recruit at GWU?


It gets NYC, it's still regional.

NYC is a market where any half decent non TTT can get a job in with good grades.

buttonpusher
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby buttonpusher » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:05 pm

I think this is what sucks the MOST about legal jobs. It is either you end up with good biglaw jobs, or end up with shit miserable jobs... there just has to be something in-between, i'd hope. this is almost not fair..


It's called bi-modal salary distribution. Miss Biglaw/OCI and odds are excellent you'll never, even after decades of practice, make what a 25 year old first year associate in Biglaw does.

In fact, the odds of ever making even 100 K a year are pretty low. For example, even larger shitlaw Insurance Defense mills that "pretend" to be kind of Biglaw with websites, attorney bios and shit pay about 60 K or so:

http://www.wilsonelser.com/


This mill grinds thru attorneys faster than a food poisoning victim goes thru toilet paper. Here's a similar or "peer" insurance defense dump:

http://www.lskdnylaw.com/


What's really funny is how decent "midlaw' type jobs that you see pop up on lawjobs.com and such often say "No insurance defense attorneys need apply" or "by litigation experience, we do not mean insurance defense." Once you get started down the ID road you're viewed as a clown who churns fender bender files and trip n' falls, and no legitimate firm will have any interest in your so-called "skills."

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Big Shrimpin » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:21 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:Doesn't GWU at least get some NYC firms at its OCI?


NYC firms come to GW. I screened with 6 during OCI last year.


hmm, then why are people saying GWU placement is regional? If GWU has strong enough of placement into NYC biglaw, then it should be a good option i suppose. do you know how many NYC biglaw firms came to OCI to recruit at GWU?


Dunno bro, but IIRC, there were a bunch. I also screened with LA firms, but then again, I'm IP. IP dooders with decent grades/personality got looks nationally. Non-IP, however, not so much.

MrAnon
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby MrAnon » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:35 pm

Big Shrimpin wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:Doesn't GWU at least get some NYC firms at its OCI?


NYC firms come to GW. I screened with 6 during OCI last year.


hmm, then why are people saying GWU placement is regional? If GWU has strong enough of placement into NYC biglaw, then it should be a good option i suppose. do you know how many NYC biglaw firms came to OCI to recruit at GWU?


Dunno bro, but IIRC, there were a bunch. I also screened with LA firms, but then again, I'm IP. IP dooders with decent grades/personality got looks nationally. Non-IP, however, not so much.


Are you saying you interviewed for NYC and LA office positions or you interviewed for DC office positions with NYC/LA firms?

LeBronBBall
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby LeBronBBall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:58 pm

buttonpusher wrote:
I think this is what sucks the MOST about legal jobs. It is either you end up with good biglaw jobs, or end up with shit miserable jobs... there just has to be something in-between, i'd hope. this is almost not fair..


It's called bi-modal salary distribution. Miss Biglaw/OCI and odds are excellent you'll never, even after decades of practice, make what a 25 year old first year associate in Biglaw does.

In fact, the odds of ever making even 100 K a year are pretty low. For example, even larger shitlaw Insurance Defense mills that "pretend" to be kind of Biglaw with websites, attorney bios and shit pay about 60 K or so:

http://www.wilsonelser.com/


This mill grinds thru attorneys faster than a food poisoning victim goes thru toilet paper. Here's a similar or "peer" insurance defense dump:

http://www.lskdnylaw.com/


What's really funny is how decent "midlaw' type jobs that you see pop up on lawjobs.com and such often say "No insurance defense attorneys need apply" or "by litigation experience, we do not mean insurance defense." Once you get started down the ID road you're viewed as a clown who churns fender bender files and trip n' falls, and no legitimate firm will have any interest in your so-called "skills."


This explains why so many lawyers in this country are miserable as fuck. Then again, I heard from my cousin (he works in NYC biglaw) that there are ex-biglaw associate who end up with doc review/ unemployed/ leave law, after their stint at Biglaw. Many got fired in 2009 from biglaw and haven't found permanent gig yet. Also, getting in-house gig after biglaw with high pay is fucking competitive even with T14 + biglaw credentials, so i guess a career in law is tough all-around. to be honest, i would rather work as an accountant or in IT consulting at no-name consulting firms than to work at some shit ID or personal injury law firm with shit hours and pay.

LeBronBBall
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby LeBronBBall » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:02 pm

Big Shrimpin wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:
LeBronBBall wrote:Doesn't GWU at least get some NYC firms at its OCI?


NYC firms come to GW. I screened with 6 during OCI last year.


hmm, then why are people saying GWU placement is regional? If GWU has strong enough of placement into NYC biglaw, then it should be a good option i suppose. do you know how many NYC biglaw firms came to OCI to recruit at GWU?


Dunno bro, but IIRC, there were a bunch. I also screened with LA firms, but then again, I'm IP. IP dooders with decent grades/personality got looks nationally. Non-IP, however, not so much.


my bud at GWU was just outside top third, and got like only one screener at OCI. This is like beyond brutal. outside of top third at GWU is a decent credential in my view, and he didn't even get first round interviews..? from this, i guess we can conclude that the majority of kids at GWU are screwed regardless, and top 20% will likely to be fine. my friend is almost border-line suicidal now, and he is kicking himself for leaving his former job to come to law school. (IT consulting at a second tier consulting boutique firm for 60k salary)

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johansantana21
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:09 pm

Did he go to GW at sticker?

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Big Shrimpin » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:22 pm

LeBronBBall wrote:my bud at GWU was just outside top third, and got like only one screener at OCI. This is like beyond brutal. outside of top third at GWU is a decent credential in my view, and he didn't even get first round interviews..? from this, i guess we can conclude that the majority of kids at GWU are screwed regardless, and top 20% will likely to be fine. my friend is almost border-line suicidal now, and he is kicking himself for leaving his former job to come to law school. (IT consulting at a second tier consulting boutique firm for 60k salary)


Sorry about your buddy. I don't know much about 2L OCI this past year (even as a 3L, myself and other IP peeps were getting screeners), but it doesn't sound like it was good.

TBF, the bloodshed at many of these marginally-decent schools (e.g. WUSTL, GW, Fordham, BU/BC, etc.) shouldn't be that surprising to anyone--especially current 1Ls and 2Ls. It's not 2005/2006/2007 anymore. Big firm hiring will likely never completely revert to the way it was before the economy bottomed-out because firms now have to take a more prudential, forward-looking approach towards hiring for their summer classes. Sure, the big firms are gonna stay leveraged, but everyone now knows that the leverage model is subject to serious paring in downtimes. Thus, you've seen firms slash class sizes, etc. (see also Blindmelon's post, supra).

Schools like GW, etc., sent a ton of doods into biglaw (someone pull up that 06/07 chart where it was like around 40%) in the boomtimes. Boomtimes are over, firms have cut back, and it shouldn't be too surprising that the hiring committee for [insert your favorite biglaw firm here] has slashed the number of interview slots they're giving at schools like GW. To be sure, you're still going to see GW do better, comparatively, than your American/UMD/GMUs of the world (that analogy extends also to other schools and their lower-tier counterparts). But overall, it shouldn't be too surprising, given the state of the economy, that GW (and by extension other firms, albeit not in the exact same percentages) sends like 20-25% into biglaw...not to mention the fact that OCI is often a FEAST for IP dooders at most schools.

Again, sorry about your bro, I don't mean to disparage his/her position. But for future readers--do your homework before you matriculate at ANY school. USNWR is not sufficient nor necessary to making an informed decision on where to go to LS. Don't be surprised if you go to a T20 school and get shot down during OCI. An informed decision includes not only data analysis, but also expectation management. You can't expect to go to GW (or Fordham, WUSTL, etc.) and get a biglaw gig--so manage your expectations and take calculated risk. That way, if you fail, you won't (or shouldn't) be so surprised.

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Re: From a current GW student- do not go to this school.

Postby Citizen Genet » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:13 pm

Big Shrimpin wrote: You can't expect to go to GW (or Fordham, WUSTL, etc.) and get a biglaw gig--so manage your expectations and take calculated risk. That way, if you fail, you won't (or shouldn't) be so surprised.



+1. I am not a naysayer by any stretch of the imagination. I think there are plenty of situations people should attend law school right now. I just don't think people should be attending anywhere outside HYSCCN and EXPECTING to go into BigLaw. Even at the best law schools, people are striking out. That's why I would also be wary of going to any of the schools quoted above at sticker and PLANNING on BigLaw to pay it off, can be a horrible idea. There are other paths - IBR, etc. - but just planning on BigLaw has become a horrible idea.




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