Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area Forum
- mrtoren
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Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Let's talk about legal markets. I'm looking at Loyola/Kent/DePaul in Chicago, Temple/Rutgers-Camden in Philadelphia, and Rutgers-Newark in Newark. I was born and raised in the Chicagoland area, still reside here. Few legal connections in the region. Obviously, the best choice is to choose the one where I will accumulate the least amount of debt. Its looking like one of the two Rutgers schools at the moment.
However, even $50k-$75k in debt can be disastrous if I can't find work in the local market. So what's your take on the debt-to-job prospects for each of these schools in their markets? How do Philadelphia/South Jersey and Newark/North Jersey view outsiders? Will my job hunt be adversely affected if I move to one of those areas? Which area is stronger right now?
However, even $50k-$75k in debt can be disastrous if I can't find work in the local market. So what's your take on the debt-to-job prospects for each of these schools in their markets? How do Philadelphia/South Jersey and Newark/North Jersey view outsiders? Will my job hunt be adversely affected if I move to one of those areas? Which area is stronger right now?
- IAFG
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- mrtoren
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Thank you for bringing this up.IAFG wrote:retake
No. Case closed.
Continue.
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
You've already taken 3 times?mrtoren wrote:No. Case closed.
- mrtoren
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
I scored over what I was PTing, I have a history of dropping lower after retaking standardized tests and I don't want to risk where I'm at right now. I'm content with this level, I don't feel over my head like I would at a T30/T14. If we can't move past this sticking point, then the moderators can lock the thread.bk187 wrote:You've already taken 3 times?mrtoren wrote:No. Case closed.
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- ggibelli
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
not sure of which market is best for finding jobs at the moment but i vote for the temple/RU-camden group. they both seem to place well in the philly market and have a good rep
- IAFG
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
If you would feel over your head at a T30, just wait to see how trying to get a job in the Chicago legal market feels from DePaul.mrtoren wrote:I scored over what I was PTing, I have a history of dropping lower after retaking standardized tests and I don't want to risk where I'm at right now. I'm content with this level, I don't feel over my head like I would at a T30/T14. If we can't move past this sticking point, then the moderators can lock the thread.bk187 wrote:You've already taken 3 times?mrtoren wrote:No. Case closed.
- Helmholtz
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
I came expecting to say how much better the city of Chicago is compared to the other two areas. Left depressed.
I would pick the school that offers the most free lunches. Also consider proximity to a liquor store. You're not going to want to walk that far during your post-2LOCI-no-offer haze.
Possibly the most attractive student body, so you might score with lawcest and get something out of the experience (the answer is herpes).
I would pick the school that offers the most free lunches. Also consider proximity to a liquor store. You're not going to want to walk that far during your post-2LOCI-no-offer haze.
Possibly the most attractive student body, so you might score with lawcest and get something out of the experience (the answer is herpes).
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
1. You have nothing to lose. If you score lower it isn't going to matter but a higher score could change things.mrtoren wrote:I scored over what I was PTing, I have a history of dropping lower after retaking standardized tests and I don't want to risk where I'm at right now. I'm content with this level, I don't feel over my head like I would at a T30/T14. If we can't move past this sticking point, then the moderators can lock the thread.
2. You tell others to retake but won't swallow the advice yourself?
3. Okay I'm dropping it.
To get it back on track: I think I'd err towards both Rutgers being better choices than any Chicago TT/TTT. The question then hinges on the one in OP: whether this holds true for outsiders as it would for NJ natives. Even if you couldn't find a definitive answer for this, I'd probably risk it since even OOS at Rutgers is probably far less than a Chicago TT/TTT.
- Nelson
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
..
Last edited by Nelson on Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- johnnyutah
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Substantive answer to the OP: Go with Newark.
- Helmholtz
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Yeah, Philly is not huge, not small. Smaller legal market than Atlanta, slightly bigger than Dallas.Nelson wrote:Philadelphia is a big city but not a big legal market. I'm from Philly and would love to stick around, but there are not a lot of jobs on the corporate side here. I've heard the number tossed around that the associate class for biglaw for the whole city was 20-30 per year in good times. Good luck with anything government as there are state and local hiring freezes into perpetuity.
- Wholigan
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Nelson wrote:Philadelphia is a big city but not a big legal market. I'm from Philly and would love to stick around, but there are not a lot of jobs on the corporate side here. I've heard the number tossed around that the associate class for biglaw for the whole city was 20-30 per year in good times.
I'm not sure who was tossing these numbers around, but it wasn't someone who knows what they are talking about. In "good times" MLB alone had around 30 summer associates per year. Right now, there are probably about 140-150 "biglaw" openings each year in Philly for new associates.
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- johnnyutah
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
If that is true, then I'm pretty sure it's new. I and many of my classmates couldn't buy a callback from Philly firms at OCI in 2009, much less an offer. I don't think there's any way they had anywhere close 140-150 slots on offer back then. Not saying that 20-30 in the whole city isn't low, but 140-150 does sound awful high.Wholigan wrote:Right now, there are probably about 140-150 "biglaw" openings each year in Philly for new associates.
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
that is definitely a generous estimate. though there are definitely more than 20-30. just looking at the biggest firms..Dechert was looking for around 18 this year, MLB wanted 10-12, Duane Morris same, Pepper hamilton wanted around 18, cozen o'connor around 15, etc. Those five firms alone get you to around 75 positions. there are many other firms that pay philly market that hire around 5-8 SAs, as well. my guess is there are in excess of 100 biglaw spots available, but not much beyond that number.Wholigan wrote:Nelson wrote:Philadelphia is a big city but not a big legal market. I'm from Philly and would love to stick around, but there are not a lot of jobs on the corporate side here. I've heard the number tossed around that the associate class for biglaw for the whole city was 20-30 per year in good times.
I'm not sure who was tossing these numbers around, but it wasn't someone who knows what they are talking about. In "good times" MLB alone had around 30 summer associates per year. Right now, there are probably about 140-150 "biglaw" openings each year in Philly for new associates.
EDIT: to actually answer OP's question...it depends on a variety of factors. if you don't want to be in philly long-term, you probably shouldn't come to this area for law school. a degree from temple or rutgers-camden won't get you very far outside the mid-atlantic region. try to think long-term, if possible.
Last edited by crazyblink653 on Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Wholigan
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
I'm pretty sure that's close to the number. I did a heavy amount of research on all the firms before and during OCI this year. You are looking at 70-75 just between MLB, Dechert, Ballard, Cozen, and Pepper.johnnyutah wrote:If that is true, then I'm pretty sure it's new. I and many of my classmates couldn't buy a callback from Philly firms at OCI in 2009, much less an offer. I don't think there's any way they had anywhere close 140-150 slots on offer back then. Not saying that 20-30 in the whole city isn't low, but 140-150 does sound awful high.Wholigan wrote:Right now, there are probably about 140-150 "biglaw" openings each year in Philly for new associates.
Then throw in 7-10 each for Blank Rome, Drinker, Duane and Reed Smith, 5-6 each for Fox, Saul Ewing, Schnader and Stradley, and 2-3 each for dla piper, Dilworth, White & Williams, Marshall Dennehey, Woodcock Washburn and Volpe Koenig.
- IAFG
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
From NALP, the summer associates who were working in Philly this year:
ballard spahr llp-11
blank rome llp-5
BUCHANAN INGERSOLL & ROONEY PC-0
COZEN O'CONNOR-15
Dechert LLP-14
dla piper LLP - 0
DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH LLP-13
duane morris llp-7
fox rothschild llp-3
Hangley Aronchick Segal & Pudlin-0
Jackson Lewis LLP-0
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P. -0
Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP-13
Pepper Hamilton LLP -21
REED Smith LLP - PHILADELPHIA-0
Saul Ewing LLP-11
Schnader Harrison Segal & Lewis LLP-4
STRADLEY RONON STEVENS & YOUNG, LLP-7
white and williams llp-2
Woodcock Washburn LLP-4
TOTAL 119
Chicago was around 325.
If someone else wants to add up the total number of Chicago/Philly area law students, that might be relevant too.
ballard spahr llp-11
blank rome llp-5
BUCHANAN INGERSOLL & ROONEY PC-0
COZEN O'CONNOR-15
Dechert LLP-14
dla piper LLP - 0
DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH LLP-13
duane morris llp-7
fox rothschild llp-3
Hangley Aronchick Segal & Pudlin-0
Jackson Lewis LLP-0
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P. -0
Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP-13
Pepper Hamilton LLP -21
REED Smith LLP - PHILADELPHIA-0
Saul Ewing LLP-11
Schnader Harrison Segal & Lewis LLP-4
STRADLEY RONON STEVENS & YOUNG, LLP-7
white and williams llp-2
Woodcock Washburn LLP-4
TOTAL 119
Chicago was around 325.
If someone else wants to add up the total number of Chicago/Philly area law students, that might be relevant too.
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- thexfactor
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Rough guide schools placing in the philly/chicago market
Philly:
Upenn 1/2 ( most upenn grads go other places)
Temple 1
Villanova 1
Rutgers 3/4 ( in NJ)
penn state 1/4 ( far away)
Drexel 1
= 4.5 law schools
Chicago
UChicago 1
NW 1
UIUC 1
ND 1
Michigan .5
Wisconsin .25
Iowa .25
Chicago kent 1
Depaul 1
WUSTL .5
Minn .25
Indiana .25
= 8 law schools
I thinkt he biggest difference is that chicago has 3 T14 schools that essentially feed to its market while Philly only has 1. Then t30s chicago has uiuc/nd/WUSTL right behind the t14s while Philly doesn't have that.
Philly goes straight from t14 to t2 schools. Therefore, it gives t2 people more of a shot.
Philly:
Upenn 1/2 ( most upenn grads go other places)
Temple 1
Villanova 1
Rutgers 3/4 ( in NJ)
penn state 1/4 ( far away)
Drexel 1
= 4.5 law schools
Chicago
UChicago 1
NW 1
UIUC 1
ND 1
Michigan .5
Wisconsin .25
Iowa .25
Chicago kent 1
Depaul 1
WUSTL .5
Minn .25
Indiana .25
= 8 law schools
I thinkt he biggest difference is that chicago has 3 T14 schools that essentially feed to its market while Philly only has 1. Then t30s chicago has uiuc/nd/WUSTL right behind the t14s while Philly doesn't have that.
Philly goes straight from t14 to t2 schools. Therefore, it gives t2 people more of a shot.
- ggibelli
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
throw widener into the philly one as wellthexfactor wrote:Rough guide schools placing in the philly/chicago market
Philly:
Upenn 1/2 ( most upenn grads go other places)
Temple 1
Villanova 1
Rutgers 3/4 ( in NJ)
penn state 1/4 ( far away)
Drexel 1
= 4.5 law schools
Chicago
UChicago 1
NW 1
UIUC 1
ND 1
Michigan .5
Wisconsin .25
Iowa .25
Chicago kent 1
Depaul 1
WUSTL .5
Minn .25
Indiana .25
= 8 law schools
I thinkt he biggest difference is that chicago has 3 T14 schools that essentially feed to its market while Philly only has 1. Then t30s chicago has uiuc/nd/WUSTL right behind the t14s while Philly doesn't have that.
Philly goes straight from t14 to t2 schools. Therefore, it gives t2 people more of a shot.
- thexfactor
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
i realized that i forgot john marshall in chicago and widner for philly.
Regardless, these are t4 schools who don't really place into nlj250 firms in either market. The same can hold true for drexel.
Regardless, these are t4 schools who don't really place into nlj250 firms in either market. The same can hold true for drexel.
- mrtoren
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Thanks for the breakdown. How does this correspond to the size of the respective legal markets? Obviously, Philadelphia is going to be smaller. So is it just as competitive for the schools in the area as it would be for those in Chicago? Would a DePaul grad looking in Chicago have the same level of difficulty as an RU-C grad in Philly? It looks like Philadelphia has less than half the SA positions that Chicago does and more than half the number of law schools.thexfactor wrote:Rough guide schools placing in the philly/chicago market
Philly:
Upenn 1/2 ( most upenn grads go other places)
Temple 1
Villanova 1
Rutgers 3/4 ( in NJ)
penn state 1/4 ( far away)
Drexel 1
= 4.5 law schools
Chicago
UChicago 1
NW 1
UIUC 1
ND 1
Michigan .5
Wisconsin .25
Iowa .25
Chicago kent 1
Depaul 1
WUSTL .5
Minn .25
Indiana .25
= 8 law schools
I thinkt he biggest difference is that chicago has 3 T14 schools that essentially feed to its market while Philly only has 1. Then t30s chicago has uiuc/nd/WUSTL right behind the t14s while Philly doesn't have that.
Philly goes straight from t14 to t2 schools. Therefore, it gives t2 people more of a shot.
I'm not looking for BigLaw. However, I'm split between government and MidLaw.
Last edited by mrtoren on Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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- IAFG
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Mhmm. How many lawyers do you think gov't and midlaw hire every year, and how many students attending the sorts of schools you are considering apply for those jobs?mrtoren wrote:
Thanks for the breakdown. How does this correspond to the size of the respective legal markets? Obviously, Philadelphia is going to be smaller. So is it just as competitive for the schools in the area as it would be for those in Chicago? Would a DePaul grad looking in Chicago have the same level of difficulty as an RU-C grad in Phllly?
I'm not looking for BigLaw. However, I'm split between government and MidLaw.
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
TCR is never New Jersey
I'd say retake, don't go, or Philadelphia
I'd say retake, don't go, or Philadelphia
Last edited by Borhas on Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Veyron
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
Oh yah, I'll just waltz up to the nearest Midlaw firm with my TT degree and SURE they'll take me. The midlaw firms I applied to had between 100-300 applicants for each SA slot.I'm split between government and MidLaw.
Maybe you could grab a small firm in Newark if you turned in a solid performance and scrambled.
Long story short. Lol. Retake.
- JamMasterJ
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Re: Philadelphia vs. Newark vs. Chicago area
this. Temple or Rutgers-C, dudeBorhas wrote:TCR is never New Jersey
I'd say retake, don't go, or Philadelphia
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
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