Environmental Law Pessimism?

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Ialdabaoth
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Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:22 am

It's been awhile since I've been on TLS, but I was just reviewing recent posts about environmental law and have a thought/question. Why is most of TLS SO pessimistic about public interest environmental law (PIEL)?

I have a 168 and a 4.0. I feel like I'm going to get into a pretty good (hopefully T-14) school that also has good environmental law resources and opportunities. I have already spent a substantial amount of time researching schools and careers in PIEL and beginning to network in the field locally. I have a unique, relevant undergraduate background and am taking a year off after I graduate to gain some relevant work experience.

If I perform well in law school and take part in a relevant journal, externship/clinic and summer employment, should I still expect to not find work in PIEL?

I guess what I'm responding to is the idea that ALL environmental lawyers just end up defending "evil corporations," which I've seen repeated here ad nauseam. I think this is an overly simplistic and pessimistic view of the field of environmental law.

I would love to get some feedback from current students who are pursuing careers in PIEL or others with relevant experience.

Thanks!

ETA: Just to note, I realize that good PIEL jobs (including federal and state government work) are insanely competitive. That's why I laid out the steps I plan to take to best position myself for pursuing such work. But I don't think the competitive nature of the field warrants the types of responses that usually come up on TLS every time someone asks a question about environmental law.

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pupshaw
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby pupshaw » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:08 am

In before "retake."

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Grizz
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:13 am

Ialdabaoth wrote:If I perform well in law school and take part in a relevant journal, externship/clinic and summer employment, should I still expect to not find work in PIEL?


1. Yeah, just perform well in lawl school, get on relevant journal, obtain relevant clinic, and get a sweet summer jerb. No problem. LOL.

2. Yes, the VAAAAST majority of enviro work is on behalf of business. Sawwy.

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Opie
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Opie » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:18 am

TLS is a fan of math, so you have to consider that. The government hires few people for this, less if the administration is not putting a priority on the environment (which is probably the case with both elephant and donkey ITE), and environmental NGOs have the resources for very few lawyers as well. So you look at big cases where the corporations send dozens of T14 grads to work on a case and you get 1-2 from greenpeace or an overworked, underfunded government office. It becomes easy to see why the work is all on one side.

tl;dr Corps have $, everyone else doesn't.

ETA: Also, retake. Don't waste that 4.0. Take a year off of everything and study if you have to. You could go to HYS with a little better LSAT.

ETAA: Like seriously, there was a 170/4.0 at Stanford last year. RETAKE!

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:42 pm

Grizz wrote:
Ialdabaoth wrote:If I perform well in law school and take part in a relevant journal, externship/clinic and summer employment, should I still expect to not find work in PIEL?


1. Yeah, just perform well in lawl school, get on relevant journal, obtain relevant clinic, and get a sweet summer jerb. No problem. LOL.

2. Yes, the VAAAAST majority of enviro work is on behalf of business. Sawwy.


Actually, most of the schools I want to attend have fairly uncompetitive application procedures for their environmental journal and clinic. And semester externships placements at schools like Berkeley provide excellent opportunities to get your foot in the door at environmental nonprofits. Last, all the schools I'm looking at have funding for PI jobs for at least 1L summer and sometimes 2L summer, which makes PIEL summer work more feasible.

Like I said, I've done my research, and I still feel that TLS is overly pessimistic on this matter. I realize that most well paying environmental law jobs would not have me doing what I'd like, but I'm happy to live on a modest PI salary and take advantage of a good LRAP. Also, I think there are a lot more PIEL jobs than people realize. I wouldn't have to be working for DOJ ENRD, Earthjustice, or NRDC. There are also several strong regional organizations and even some local ones that employ attorneys.

TL;DR Yes, the numbers aren't on my side, but I've yet to hear a strong argument with any type of real evidence to dissuade me from pursuing this career path.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:48 pm

Opie wrote:TLS is a fan of math, so you have to consider that. The government hires few people for this, less if the administration is not putting a priority on the environment (which is probably the case with both elephant and donkey ITE), and environmental NGOs have the resources for very few lawyers as well. So you look at big cases where the corporations send dozens of T14 grads to work on a case and you get 1-2 from greenpeace or an overworked, underfunded government office. It becomes easy to see why the work is all on one side.

tl;dr Corps have $, everyone else doesn't.

ETA: Also, retake. Don't waste that 4.0. Take a year off of everything and study if you have to. You could go to HYS with a little better LSAT.

ETAA: Like seriously, there was a 170/4.0 at Stanford last year. RETAKE!


Thanks for your response!

I understand the math argument. I know this will be difficult. I just don't think it's such a hopeless career.

Haha, I'm thinking about retaking in June or next October because I'm taking next year off from school. I know a 170+ would make me a lot stronger applicant, but I'm kind of nervous about retaking because I outperformed my highest PT by 4 points. Yeah...please don't hate.

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observationalist
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby observationalist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:05 pm

Ialdabaoth wrote:
Opie wrote:TLS is a fan of math, so you have to consider that. The government hires few people for this, less if the administration is not putting a priority on the environment (which is probably the case with both elephant and donkey ITE), and environmental NGOs have the resources for very few lawyers as well. So you look at big cases where the corporations send dozens of T14 grads to work on a case and you get 1-2 from greenpeace or an overworked, underfunded government office. It becomes easy to see why the work is all on one side.

tl;dr Corps have $, everyone else doesn't.

ETA: Also, retake. Don't waste that 4.0. Take a year off of everything and study if you have to. You could go to HYS with a little better LSAT.

ETAA: Like seriously, there was a 170/4.0 at Stanford last year. RETAKE!


Thanks for your response!

I understand the math argument. I know this will be difficult. I just don't think it's such a hopeless career.

Haha, I'm thinking about retaking in June or next October because I'm taking next year off from school. I know a 170+ would make me a lot stronger applicant, but I'm kind of nervous about retaking because I outperformed my highest PT by 4 points. Yeah...please don't hate.


If TLS is generally skeptical about the field it's for good reason: as Opie mentioned there are essentially a handful of public interest environmental jobs out there. What's meant by that is that there are a handful of entry-level PIEL jobs for the taking; while plenty of NGOs have a need for competent legal representation, there's no reason to think that a recent law graduate has anything to offer in terms of value except in the rare occasion that there is actually a lack of trained attorneys who can offer competent legal representation. And to become the trained attorney who can compete for those jobs you need to think about what kind of work you should be aiming for in the space between law school and when an NGO is going to have an interest in hiring you.

I would also discount the value of 1L/2L stipend aid. Virtually every decent law school offers support for you to do that kind of work, but virtually no 1L/2L summer jobs will translate into fulltime offers at graduation. (There are exceptions; there are always exceptions. I might count as an exception. But don't plan your career decisions around having to be the exception.) The vast majority of the workplaces you would be happy to occupy don't have the funds nor the need nor the interest to hire you straight out of law school.

If law school trained you to practice law and gave you a few years of experience rather than just two summer internships, TLS might have a different outlook on things. But both the schools and the employers know that you will most likely not be prepared or trained upon graduation, which means you need to seek out employers who will train you as a sort of intermediary between law school and the NGO camp. I'm not saying don't keep aiming for the types of post-graduation grant funding that will get you starting out at an NGO or gov't agency, but you need to be more realistic about just how few of these unique and rewarding jobs are out there, and just how many people you've never met who have significantly better experience in the field, stronger networks, and who will have better law school credentials if you don't retake.

A good way to get a handle on the hiring market for PIEL might be to contact students at Vermont, L&C and Pace (those who are in their enviro program at any rate). They are the student populations who are most interested in PIEL and have the most institutional assistance, but even then it's still extremely difficult for any of them to find work after graduation. It's partly that they lose out to students from higher-ranked schools and partly that they lose out to all the practicing attorneys who desire the same jobs and the many perks they offer.

Hopefully the skepticism on this board will motivate you to retake and perhaps recognize the very high likelihood that your only options out of law school will be 1) working for a firm if you can find one to hire you, 2) striking out and unfortunately finding no fulfilling work whatsoever, or 3) relying on your previous connections to get you a fulfilling PI job that doesn't require a JD... in which case it would be questionable why you needed the JD in the first place. G'luck.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:25 pm

observationalist wrote:
Ialdabaoth wrote:
Opie wrote:TLS is a fan of math, so you have to consider that. The government hires few people for this, less if the administration is not putting a priority on the environment (which is probably the case with both elephant and donkey ITE), and environmental NGOs have the resources for very few lawyers as well. So you look at big cases where the corporations send dozens of T14 grads to work on a case and you get 1-2 from greenpeace or an overworked, underfunded government office. It becomes easy to see why the work is all on one side.

tl;dr Corps have $, everyone else doesn't.

ETA: Also, retake. Don't waste that 4.0. Take a year off of everything and study if you have to. You could go to HYS with a little better LSAT.

ETAA: Like seriously, there was a 170/4.0 at Stanford last year. RETAKE!


Thanks for your response!

I understand the math argument. I know this will be difficult. I just don't think it's such a hopeless career.

Haha, I'm thinking about retaking in June or next October because I'm taking next year off from school. I know a 170+ would make me a lot stronger applicant, but I'm kind of nervous about retaking because I outperformed my highest PT by 4 points. Yeah...please don't hate.


If TLS is generally skeptical about the field it's for good reason: as Opie mentioned there are essentially a handful of public interest environmental jobs out there. What's meant by that is that there are a handful of entry-level PIEL jobs for the taking; while plenty of NGOs have a need for competent legal representation, there's no reason to think that a recent law graduate has anything to offer in terms of value except in the rare occasion that there is actually a lack of trained attorneys who can offer competent legal representation. And to become the trained attorney who can compete for those jobs you need to think about what kind of work you should be aiming for in the space between law school and when an NGO is going to have an interest in hiring you.

I would also discount the value of 1L/2L stipend aid. Virtually every decent law school offers support for you to do that kind of work, but virtually no 1L/2L summer jobs will translate into fulltime offers at graduation. (There are exceptions; there are always exceptions. I might count as an exception. But don't plan your career decisions around having to be the exception.) The vast majority of the workplaces you would be happy to occupy don't have the funds nor the need nor the interest to hire you straight out of law school.

If law school trained you to practice law and gave you a few years of experience rather than just two summer internships, TLS might have a different outlook on things. But both the schools and the employers know that you will most likely not be prepared or trained upon graduation, which means you need to seek out employers who will train you as a sort of intermediary between law school and the NGO camp. I'm not saying don't keep aiming for the types of post-graduation grant funding that will get you starting out at an NGO or gov't agency, but you need to be more realistic about just how few of these unique and rewarding jobs are out there, and just how many people you've never met who have significantly better experience in the field, stronger networks, and who will have better law school credentials if you don't retake.

A good way to get a handle on the hiring market for PIEL might be to contact students at Vermont, L&C and Pace (those who are in their enviro program at any rate). They are the student populations who are most interested in PIEL and have the most institutional assistance, but even then it's still extremely difficult for any of them to find work after graduation. It's partly that they lose out to students from higher-ranked schools and partly that they lose out to all the practicing attorneys who desire the same jobs and the many perks they offer.

Hopefully the skepticism on this board will motivate you to retake and perhaps recognize the very high likelihood that your only options out of law school will be 1) working for a firm if you can find one to hire you, 2) striking out and unfortunately finding no fulfilling work whatsoever, or 3) relying on your previous connections to get you a fulfilling PI job that doesn't require a JD... in which case it would be questionable why you needed the JD in the first place. G'luck.



Thank you for your detailed, insightful response!

I should have noted two more things in my post: 1) I am not opposed to working in a firm (of any size/salary/location) immediately after graduation if that's all I can do. I wouldn't be "morally" opposed to doing so, and I know that a lot of people who end up in PI can't necessarily start out there. 2) I am considering retaking in June or October of next year because I won't be applying until next cycle.

That said, I'd be interested to hear why you think of yourself as an "exception." If you have the time, would you PM me (or post here if you're comfortable with that) to explain a little more about your background and what you're doing now?

Also, I'm really not interested in Vermont, L&C, or Pace. I don't want to be that limited, and I feel that a T-14 (or possibly UCLA, Vandy, etc.) with a good environmental program is a much more solid choice. And I'm not that debt averse, so I'd be okay with such a school's price tag.

Again, thanks so much for your response!

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby anewaphorist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:37 pm

The people on TLS can be ridiculous. Sure, a 173 would get you H, S, and possibly Y. You could re-take and shoot for the stars, but you don't need a T3 for a great enviro program (read Berkeley, UCol-Boulder). And if the problem is hiring, it's not like choosing a T10 (very attainable if you ED) over a T3 is going to make it markedly harder to get one of those scarce PIEL spots. IMHO, work experience will count for more than a marginally better school. Don't let people here tell you to retake, especially if you scored 4 points above your PT average. 4.0 168 is about as close as it comes to a lock for all schools up through, say, UVA.

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:50 pm

anewaphorist wrote:The people on TLS can be ridiculous. Sure, a 173 would get you H, S, and possibly Y. You could re-take and shoot for the stars, but you don't need a T3 for a great enviro program (read Berkeley). And if the problem is hiring, it's not like choosing a T10 (very attainable if you ED) over a T3 is going to make it markedly harder to get one of those scarce PIEL spots. IMHO, work experience will count for more than a marginally better school. Don't let people here tell you to retake, especially if you scored 4 points above your PT average. 4.0 168 is about as close as it comes to a lock for all schools up through, say, UVA.


Thanks! Your perspective is reassuring.

And yeah, my main concern about retaking is the outperforming my PTs last time thing. I also agree that T10 versus a T3 wouldn't make a huge difference in hiring, especially in light of the fact that PIEL hiring does go beyond looking only at prestige (i.e. relevant experience in law school does matter). Berkeley is pretty much my dream school anyways, haha. Well, I guess Stanford is actually my super unrealistic dream school, but I would be ecstatic if I got into Berk.

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby anewaphorist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:52 pm

Well if that's the case, definitely don't re-take. On the off chance that you do get a 173, Berkeley will YP you out of habit. You're ideally situated for Boalt as it is.

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:58 pm

Thanks, so you think I do have a good shot at B ? I have a pretty strong environmental background and feel like I can articulate my fit with their environmental program. I just ask because I have had other people tell me Berkeley is actually a big reach for me.

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby anewaphorist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:07 pm

The Berk cares (relatively) little about numbers. Check out LSN and LSP. With your numbers, you're only a reach if you have no ECs whatsoever. 25th-75th LSAT range is 162-170. And odds are most members of the top 25th percentile (above 170) don't have 4.0s.
Last edited by anewaphorist on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:17 pm

I know they do more of a truly holistic review, but LSN is actually one thing that got me discouraged. They reject a whole lot of people with a 167-169 and high GPAs. And maybe I've just psyched myself out. I've been thinking I need to have absolutely phenomenal softs to get into Berk with a 168. I guess I should say, too, that I think my LSAC GPA will actually end up being about a 3.95 (stupid high school summer program, haha). I don't know if that actually makes any difference though. Thanks again for your input!

Anybody else out there who's currently in law school pursuing PIEL?

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby anewaphorist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:34 pm

Yes, but they accept a lot of people in that range too. I'm not saying you're a lock for Boalt, but it's certainly not a reach--at least, no more than it is for anyone else. Your numbers get you in the door there, for sure. The questions then become, How good are your LORs? How well-written is your PS? Anything that makes you stand out? It's not just about your ECs; UCB cares a lot about enrolling a diverse student body, so make your unique experiences sing. I honestly don't think they will give 2 shits if you boost your LSAT score 3-4 points on your second take, and from what you've said, that would take some serious doing (as it would for anyone, really).

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:46 pm

I'm a 2L and have next summer's job locked down - a paying gig with the feds doing environmental work and I'm not at a T14 or even in the top 10% of my class at my school (rank somewhere in the 70s or 80s). Will it turn into long term employment after my 3L year? I don't know but I think it is interesting that I didn't go to school to specifically do environmental law - I just like admin law in general. That tells me you shouldn't necessarily even look for a school that has a strong E Law focus.

Seems like everyone here is leaning towards giving yourself the best suite of possibilities by retaking and possibly getting into a T14 school. I'd lean toward that direction as well but if you really are dedicated to doing PI work I'd put in a vote for limiting your debt load as much as you can. Maybe retake and end up somewhere higher in the rankings but with a substantial scholly to help offset your potential debt load.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:08 am

anewaphorist wrote:Yes, but they accept a lot of people in that range too. I'm not saying you're a lock for Boalt, but it's certainly not a reach--at least, no more than it is for anyone else. Your numbers get you in the door there, for sure. The questions then become, How good are your LORs? How well-written is your PS? Anything that makes you stand out? It's not just about your ECs; UCB cares a lot about enrolling a diverse student body, so make your unique experiences sing. I honestly don't think they will give 2 shits if you boost your LSAT score 3-4 points on your second take, and from what you've said, that would take some serious doing (as it would for anyone, really).


Thanks for the admissions advice. Your perspective on the LSAT is really refreshing, too.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:19 am

SamSeaborn2016 wrote:I'm a 2L and have next summer's job locked down - a paying gig with the feds doing environmental work and I'm not at a T14 or even in the top 10% of my class at my school (rank somewhere in the 70s or 80s). Will it turn into long term employment after my 3L year? I don't know but I think it is interesting that I didn't go to school to specifically do environmental law - I just like admin law in general. That tells me you shouldn't necessarily even look for a school that has a strong E Law focus.

Seems like everyone here is leaning towards giving yourself the best suite of possibilities by retaking and possibly getting into a T14 school. I'd lean toward that direction as well but if you really are dedicated to doing PI work I'd put in a vote for limiting your debt load as much as you can. Maybe retake and end up somewhere higher in the rankings but with a substantial scholly to help offset your potential debt load.


Thanks for your response. I'm having a bit of trouble following your argument though. I don't understand how your situation shows that I shouldn't try to get into a good school that also has a good environmental program. I know you seem to be a bit of an exception, but I don't think I'm going to give up focusing on schools with good EL resources based on your experience. Congrats on your summer job though!

Also, I don't think I necessarily need to retake for "possibly getting into a T14," unless you really don't think I have much of a chance as I stand with a 3.95/4.0 and a 168. As for debt, I'm hoping to get into a T14 with a good LRAP (lower ranked schools' LRAPs often aren't as generous), which can be pretty sweet for someone as long as they get into PI within a few years of graduation.

Again, thanks for your thoughts and congrats on your success!

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby crit_racer » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:30 am

I don't really have much to contribute to this thread, but I'm a 1L at UT who is looking to crack into PI enviro law. Let me know if you have any questions about UT. It seems we have a fair amount of enviro law resources that I'm hoping to take advantage of.

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby gin » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:01 am

Environmental law was one of the things I was considering to practice when I first went in 3 months ago. The thing that killed it was not the low pay or lack of gov't jobs; it was the idea of having to read f...ing statutes (amongst other incredibly boring material). I hate the idea of any kind of admin law in general now

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby observationalist » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:13 am

My comment about contacting Vermont students wasn't meant to suggest you should attend one of those schools... sorry for the confusion on that. I just thought it would be a good idea for you to speak with people who have the same interests as you but are a few years further along, and see what they're up against. It would help make you more informed before you start applying (though to what extent I can't say).

When I said I might be an exception it's because I basically saw my 1L NGO internship lead to more work during law school, which then let to me getting work after law school on a project basis. But I also received a post-grad stipend from Vanderbilt that allowed me to relocate abroad, and I had some amazing profs with a lot of NGO experience who were willing to fight for me to get through to the NGOs down here in Chile, and I also found separate work on legal education reform that was entirely fortuitous in how it came about. Combined it's a lot of work but none of the jobs are by themselves a fulltime legal gig... it's mostly policy work for which being a nonpracticing lawyer is helpful. So I can't really say I am a true example of someone who turns an NGO gig into a legal job or not. Rather I'm just scraping away and gaining experience before we return to the states and I need to look for FT legal work.

That said I still think it's possible for people to do right out of law school. It just shouldn't be something you plan on doing. If you can find small-shop enviro firms who can train and mentor you while you're still in law school you may be better off than only focusing on NGOs and hoping a position or funding opens up for you.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:39 am

crit_racer wrote:I don't really have much to contribute to this thread, but I'm a 1L at UT who is looking to crack into PI enviro law. Let me know if you have any questions about UT. It seems we have a fair amount of enviro law resources that I'm hoping to take advantage of.


Hi, thanks for this offer! Have you gotten involved with the environmental law society or anything else related yet? If so, what types of things are they doing? Have you heard anything about how difficult it is to get a spot on the environmental journal or in the environmental clinic?

How are you liking UT in general?

TIA!

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:44 am

gin wrote:Environmental law was one of the things I was considering to practice when I first went in 3 months ago. The thing that killed it was not the low pay or lack of gov't jobs; it was the idea of having to read f...ing statutes (amongst other incredibly boring material). I hate the idea of any kind of admin law in general now


I've heard similar complaints before. If you have the time, would you elaborate on why you find administrative law to be more boring than other types of law? I understand that reading statutes probably isn't the most exciting thing, but I wonder how much worse it is than other legal tasks, haha. Also, I'm not really interested in PIEL for pleasure in the work itself; I'm more interested in what I see as its goals. [Please don't bash me for being idealistic.]

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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:48 am

I guess my question would be what exactly do you mean by doing "environmental law"? If you want to do some kind of impact litigation (i.e. lawsuits designed to change policy or target serious environmental harms) you'd probably be better off spending a few years after law school in general litigation developing your skills -- as pointed out above, a fresh grad isn't worth much to these orgs. Not that it's impossible, just the odds are against you. But by all means if you're serious about it, do as many internships as you can, take relevant classes, etc. It will help inasmuch as it will show interest/commitment.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Environmental Law Pessimism?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:08 am

blsingindisguise wrote:I guess my question would be what exactly do you mean by doing "environmental law"? If you want to do some kind of impact litigation (i.e. lawsuits designed to change policy or target serious environmental harms) you'd probably be better off spending a few years after law school in general litigation developing your skills -- as pointed out above, a fresh grad isn't worth much to these orgs. Not that it's impossible, just the odds are against you. But by all means if you're serious about it, do as many internships as you can, take relevant classes, etc. It will help inasmuch as it will show interest/commitment.


Well, I wouldn't want to presume to know exactly what type of public interest environmental law I will want to get into, e.g. litigation or more policy-based work. Thanks for the advice on developing general litigation skills though. I've seen hefty litigation experience required in a lot of the PIEL job postings I've come across.

Could pursuing all PI work while in law school hurt my chances at getting the type of lit position in a firm that would allow me to gain that experience? I'm not opposed to working in a firm for some amount a time. I see the benefits of it, and I'm not a "all corporations/law firms are evil" environmentalist. I just don't want that to be my permanent line of work.




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