Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

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Mauve Dinosaur
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Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Mauve Dinosaur » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:06 pm

I was discussing this the other day and was interested in TLS's take on it. Should TTTTs like Cooley be allowed to exist? Most of us would sooner go to clown college, but the fact is that these schools amazingly still manage to attract students. I originally blamed the students for not doing research, but truth is it's more insidious than that. Essentially they are taking gullible kids, enticing them with false promises about job prospects and magic disappearing scholarships, soaking them for their money and sending them out into a market where they will be, in all likelihood rejected by firms and end up working as a paralegal at best, or short order cook at worst. I think if everyone researched carefully most would either try to get T14 or at very least T100, or failing that, give up on law and try a different career path. There is just no legitimate reason I can think of for a reasonably informed person to want to go to Cooley and the like. Should we just say caveat emptor and allow this to continue, or try to have some semblance of consumer protection, maybe scaling back to the top 100-150 schools, or at least put surgeon general style warning labels on TTTTs that say "WARNING: YOU WILL HAVE TERRIBLE JOB PROSPECTS IF YOU ATTEND THIS INSTITUTION".

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Grizz
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Grizz » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:09 pm

Force schools to publish real employment stats and restrict govt. lending. After that, I don't give a crap what people do with their money.

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mrtoren
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby mrtoren » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:54 pm

I think the number of law schools has grown beyond the saturation point. There are TTT/TTTT schools that offer low tuition and decent job prospects in their market..however, the number of law schools that rob ignorant students and leave them jobless is taking over those few reputable institutions. Its a problem with higher education in general. Undergraduate debt is becoming an increasing burden on society which is compounded even further by graduate education. I think the government, at the state or federal level, should be regulating public university tuition prices. If they could bring their costs down, private institutions would have to follow suit in order to compete. If that's not feasible, financial aid reform must occur. Money is handed out like candy right now despite the poor investment many students are making. If students wouldn't qualify for the loans or if lenders could lose out in bankruptcy court, the system would drastically change.

On an even more basic level, if the ABA would simply show some backbone, we could get this thing solved over night. They've handed out accreditation to schools they know won't produce viable lawyers. They've emphasized profit over educational quality. Its time to purge the entire organization and start with fresh minds.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:04 pm

It's interesting to me that the ire is always focused on schools like Cooley when there are top 25 schools that are misleading their students/potential students with regards to job prospects. Closing down the Cooley's of the world doesn't change anything when the Hofstra's, Carbozo's, Davis's of the world still exist. Likewise, "researching" and making "t100 or bust" decisions won't change much as long as schools of all pedigrees can and do go out of their way to mislead/make their stats easy to misinterpret.

msuz
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby msuz » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:43 am

Grizz wrote:Force schools to publish real employment stats and restrict govt. lending. After that, I don't give a crap what people do with their money.

Or put a third party in charge of employment stats. Imagine what it would be like if instead of allowing schools to publish data, they had to provide a link to lawschooltransparency.com

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Blindmelon
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:35 pm

This thread is original and insightful.

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romothesavior
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby romothesavior » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:43 pm

Blindmelon wrote:This thread is original and insightful.

My thoughts exactly.

OP, in short, they have none. These are schools that manipulate their students and often are in control of ABA committees that allow them to further perpetuate their scams.

mrloblaw
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby mrloblaw » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:49 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:This thread is original and insightful.

My thoughts exactly.

OP, in short, they have none. These are schools that manipulate their students and often are in control of ABA committees that allow them to further perpetuate their scams.


Might as well bite and try to make something legitimate out of this dead-horse pinata:

Is it ethically questionable to you guys that the TTTs exist at all, or merely that they falsify employment statistics? If the former, they're obviously just providing a service that stupid college grads want. Good for them. If it's the latter, why focus on the TTTs? Every law schools does it to some degree, and the most egregious cases I've heard all came out of T1/T2 schools.

Really, just take away the bloody loan money, so that morons stop inflating the ungodly educational debt bubble for a 2% chance at success.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:38 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:This thread is original and insightful.

My thoughts exactly.

OP, in short, they have none. These are schools that manipulate their students and often are in control of ABA committees that allow them to further perpetuate their scams.


Might as well bite and try to make something legitimate out of this dead-horse pinata:

Is it ethically questionable to you guys that the TTTs exist at all, or merely that they falsify employment statistics? If the former, they're obviously just providing a service that stupid college grads want. Good for them. If it's the latter, why focus on the TTTs? Every law schools does it to some degree, and the most egregious cases I've heard all came out of T1/T2 schools.

Really, just take away the bloody loan money, so that morons stop inflating the ungodly educational debt bubble for a 2% chance at success.


No they are not providing a service the students want. THe students want to get a job out of law school. These schools generally do not deliver that.

niceopposum
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby niceopposum » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:51 pm

Grizz wrote:Force schools to publish real employment stats and restrict govt. lending. After that, I don't give a crap what people do with their money.


govt. lending for education is a social imperative -- regulate the schools directly

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Grizz
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Grizz » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:18 pm

niceopposum wrote:
Grizz wrote:Force schools to publish real employment stats and restrict govt. lending. After that, I don't give a crap what people do with their money.


govt. lending for education is a social imperative -- regulate the schools directly

I don't wan't to debate this over and over again, so I'm just gonna say "why do you think tuition is so high?"

niceopposum
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby niceopposum » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:30 pm

Grizz wrote:
niceopposum wrote:govt. lending for education is a social imperative -- regulate the schools directly

I don't wan't to debate this over and over again, so I'm just gonna say "why do you think tuition is so high?"


you're right. peg tuition increases to inflation. of course restrictions in kind instead of degree would be helpful, for profit schools shouldn't get federal money.

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paul34
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby paul34 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:14 am

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Last edited by paul34 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mrloblaw
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:16 pm

paul34 wrote:If loans weren't govt secured, I think you'd see these sorts of schools start to wither away fairly quickly. What lender would give someone a loan to go to a school like that?

At the same time, it could create a scenario where law schools live and die by their employment statistics. I'm guessing that wouldn't be good for people who go to law school for reasons other than working at a big law firm. In other words, it would push law school toward the vocational school route, something often resisted by legal academia. Is this a good or bad thing? I doubt there's a simple answer to that.


Good thing for the tens of thousands of kids who don't understand that they will never see economic benefit from their $200k piece of TTT paper. Bad thing for the small number of people who are getting law degrees just for the Hell of it.

Congress tends to care a lot more about restricting the choices of people who can't make rational decisions than preserving the liberties of those who can--and in this case, they should. The last thing our economy needs is another gargantuan bubble.

No they are not providing a service the students want. THe students want to get a job out of law school. These schools generally do not deliver that.


I really don't think any reasonable person can argue that people legitimately (and properly) believe that they're buying a job with tuition dollars. Best case scenario, they're just buying a chance to sit for the bar.

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mattviphky
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby mattviphky » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:36 pm

minimum lsat score. even 155 would be prohibitive for many people...or at least give them motivation to study. I hate to boil everything down to lsat scores, but it is the least challenging solution.

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Fred_McGriff
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Fred_McGriff » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:39 am

Be clear to differentiate between good regional TTTs and TTTToilets. 70% of South Carolina's bar association went to the University of South Carolina, which is a TTT. If you want to practice in the state, it's a better bet than anywhere else. The same goes for schools like Ole Miss and Montana.

For the overwhelming majority of those schools they're a scam, but for some of them, they provide decent regional employment and are relatively cheap.

MrAnon
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby MrAnon » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:57 am

Fred_McGriff wrote:Be clear to differentiate between good regional TTTs and TTTToilets. 70% of South Carolina's bar association went to the University of South Carolina, which is a TTT. If you want to practice in the state, it's a better bet than anywhere else. The same goes for schools like Ole Miss and Montana.

For the overwhelming majority of those schools they're a scam, but for some of them, they provide decent regional employment and are relatively cheap.


Probably 1/4 of graduates for such flagship schools are completely unemployable in the legal profession. There's only room for so many lawyers in Montana, Mississippi, and SC.

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ColtsFan88
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby ColtsFan88 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:18 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Fred_McGriff wrote:Be clear to differentiate between good regional TTTs and TTTToilets. 70% of South Carolina's bar association went to the University of South Carolina, which is a TTT. If you want to practice in the state, it's a better bet than anywhere else. The same goes for schools like Ole Miss and Montana.

For the overwhelming majority of those schools they're a scam, but for some of them, they provide decent regional employment and are relatively cheap.


Probably 1/4 of graduates for such flagship schools are completely unemployable in the legal profession. There's only room for so many lawyers in Montana, Mississippi, and SC.


Is it really possible for 100% of gears to be employable. A 3/4-1/4 split seems reasonable.

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bk1
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby bk1 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:51 pm

ColtsFan88 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Fred_McGriff wrote:Be clear to differentiate between good regional TTTs and TTTToilets. 70% of South Carolina's bar association went to the University of South Carolina, which is a TTT. If you want to practice in the state, it's a better bet than anywhere else. The same goes for schools like Ole Miss and Montana.

For the overwhelming majority of those schools they're a scam, but for some of them, they provide decent regional employment and are relatively cheap.


Probably 1/4 of graduates for such flagship schools are completely unemployable in the legal profession. There's only room for so many lawyers in Montana, Mississippi, and SC.


Is it really possible for 100% of gears to be employable. A 3/4-1/4 split seems reasonable.


Almost no school outside of the top 15-20 does better than 75-80% legal employment. From a realistic perspective a 75-25 split is reasonable but when you look at it purely from cost it's hard to justify charging people 30k, 40k, 50k+ tuition per year for a JD when 1 in 4 kids won't get a legal job.

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mattviphky
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby mattviphky » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:02 pm

again...minimum lsat.

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Fred_McGriff
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Fred_McGriff » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:47 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Fred_McGriff wrote:Be clear to differentiate between good regional TTTs and TTTToilets. 70% of South Carolina's bar association went to the University of South Carolina, which is a TTT. If you want to practice in the state, it's a better bet than anywhere else. The same goes for schools like Ole Miss and Montana.

For the overwhelming majority of those schools they're a scam, but for some of them, they provide decent regional employment and are relatively cheap.


Probably 1/4 of graduates for such flagship schools are completely unemployable in the legal profession. There's only room for so many lawyers in Montana, Mississippi, and SC.


Touche, but with the cost of living in those places, some of that bottom quarter will wind up doing alright... I'd imagine there are plenty of Ole Miss shingle hangers in small towns in the delta that scrape by etc. Law school probably wasn't the best idea, but I doubt they're starving.

If you live in one of those states, are well connected, and above medians, can go for very cheap, they're not all that bad of an idea, especially compared with everywhere else in TTT and TTTT

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johansantana21
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:54 pm

I always thought that idiots that choose to go to TTT's deserve the soul crushing debt and unemployment...

But when a few friends of mine decided to go to TT and TTT's and my sincere attempt to persuade them not to failed...I kind of took pity on them.

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Jah'rakal
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Jah'rakal » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:25 pm

ABA accredited these schools, thus proving they can indeed provide quality education, nothing wrong with those schools

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:31 pm

there should be 40-50 law schools

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Samara
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Re: Ethics of TTTs and TTTTs

Postby Samara » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:42 am

JamMasterJ wrote:there should be 40-50 law schools

I hope you're trolling.




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