I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

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mattviphky
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mattviphky » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:43 pm

medians and percentiles on lsats don't mean shit. It's all about the solid score, i got a 164 and that was a 90%. it sounds nice, to say 90%, but it really means 0% to the chance of me getting into a T14, which is something everyone should aim for, even if they fall a little short. That way they prepared well enough to "settle" at a lower ranked school with money and whatever other variables people take into consideration. Don't pat yourself on the back for being in a certain percentile unless it is 99%.

Now you want to go to law school with those numbers? It's possible, but why the fuck are fretting over spending 150 bucks on a test when you would have to go into serious debt for a low ranked school. The lsat is hard, everyone knows it, we have all taken it too, but it is beatable. If you honestly have insomnia, i am sorry for your condition, but no matter how much pity I give you it won't raise your score. Pick yourself up and study, seriously. I know it sucks, I started with a 155 and made it to a 164. Go to lsat prep forum and follow good advice from people who have been in your position, such as myself. What section of the test gave you trouble? Seriously, with a 160 and a 3.6 your prospects will be so much better. But why stop there? With a 165 you could open yourself up to a whole new world. No matter how many excuses you make, it won't raise your score, so study! I know this all might sound mean, but it is something you need to hear.

MoneyTeam
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby MoneyTeam » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:25 pm

When would you be getting your applications out? I say that you should apply this cycle, see what your options are, and then decide to either go with what you have, or to take a year off and retake.

The schools I would recommend are: St. John's, Brooklyn, Miami, Rutgers, Villanova, Syracuse. If you are trying to work in the New York market, you could get a decent shot at such at all of these schools except Miami. I'm not saying like BigLaw but you should have a shot at some type of employment.

I would advise a retake though. And hopefully a 157-159? That will really change your options tremendously.

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mrtoren
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mrtoren » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:38 pm

bobbyh1919 wrote:I agree with the above. 151 is the median for test takers, but you have to remember that almost everybody who scores <145 doesn't apply to law school, essentially meaning that a 151 is very low for applicants. I'm sure you could bump that up fairly easily, even grabbing 8 or so extra questions could translate to a significant score boost. I disagree with posters who say get a 165 or don't bother, but I think a 157-159 is very doable and will let you sneak into a handful of T2 schools.

I absolutely agree with this. I don't propagate the 170 or bust mentality on these forums and I'm not a member of that club. Mid-150's to high-150's will give you a shot at some solid TT schools. Will they be in your desired market? Possibly, possibly not. I'm considering moving half way across the country because I want to succeed after law school. My market is bogged down by a number of T14 and T30 schools that push TT grads out of consideration. And since I don't have the numbers to get into the better schools, its a compromise.

Mr. Pancakes, it sounds like you have a guaranteed job. If you can get into a law school, by all means, go for it. However, you have to be sure you have what it takes to be a good lawyer and you need a quality education to teach you how to practice. I don't think the schools you can get into at this point will provide a solid legal foundation. The last thing you want to do is let your father's firm collapse because you're not qualified to take it over.

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mrtoren
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mrtoren » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:45 pm

MoneyTeam wrote:When would you be getting your applications out? I say that you should apply this cycle, see what your options are, and then decide to either go with what you have, or to take a year off and retake.

The schools I would recommend are: St. John's, Brooklyn, Miami, Rutgers, Villanova, Syracuse. If you are trying to work in the New York market, you could get a decent shot at such at all of these schools except Miami. I'm not saying like BigLaw but you should have a shot at some type of employment.

I would advise a retake though. And hopefully a 157-159? That will really change your options tremendously.

New York state market, right? These schools would be hard pressed to break into NYC. I believe both Rutgers law schools are extremely underrated. Everyone qualifies for in-state tuition and their respective co-op markets, NYC and especially Philadelphia, are a reality for the top of the class. Worst case scenario? You stay and work in NJ. However, at $25k/year plus reasonable living costs, you would be hard pressed to find a better value.

MoneyTeam
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby MoneyTeam » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:18 pm

mrtoren wrote:
MoneyTeam wrote:When would you be getting your applications out? I say that you should apply this cycle, see what your options are, and then decide to either go with what you have, or to take a year off and retake.

The schools I would recommend are: St. John's, Brooklyn, Miami, Rutgers, Villanova, Syracuse. If you are trying to work in the New York market, you could get a decent shot at such at all of these schools except Miami. I'm not saying like BigLaw but you should have a shot at some type of employment.

I would advise a retake though. And hopefully a 157-159? That will really change your options tremendously.

New York state market, right? These schools would be hard pressed to break into NYC. I believe both Rutgers law schools are extremely underrated. Everyone qualifies for in-state tuition and their respective co-op markets, NYC and especially Philadelphia, are a reality for the top of the class. Worst case scenario? You stay and work in NJ. However, at $25k/year plus reasonable living costs, you would be hard pressed to find a better value.


St. John's & Brooklyn could break into the NYC market. Most of the others probably couldn't, unless it was a public interest position. I think St. John's and Brooklyn would be the key targets though, the alumni networks at those schools are strong and very regional, which would bode well for OP.

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mrtoren
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mrtoren » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:56 pm

MoneyTeam wrote:St. John's & Brooklyn could break into the NYC market. Most of the others probably couldn't, unless it was a public interest position. I think St. John's and Brooklyn would be the key targets though, the alumni networks at those schools are strong and very regional, which would bode well for OP.

That's probably true. But I would venture to say that the graduates end up in small firms with small salaries...which isn't a big deal if that's something the prospective law student is willing to live with. However, the COA at both is ASTRONOMICAL! St. John's wants $46,000/year in tuition and Brooklyn wants $48,000/year! Most T14 law schools charge less than that. With the OP's LSAT, s/he would be hard pressed to get into either...let alone receive any scholarship money. I can't support either.

If the OP can't make it into Rutgers-Newark, then its either retake or don't go.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:03 pm

mrtoren wrote:
bobbyh1919 wrote:I agree with the above. 151 is the median for test takers, but you have to remember that almost everybody who scores <145 doesn't apply to law school, essentially meaning that a 151 is very low for applicants. I'm sure you could bump that up fairly easily, even grabbing 8 or so extra questions could translate to a significant score boost. I disagree with posters who say get a 165 or don't bother, but I think a 157-159 is very doable and will let you sneak into a handful of T2 schools.

I absolutely agree with this. I don't propagate the 170 or bust mentality on these forums and I'm not a member of that club. Mid-150's to high-150's will give you a shot at some solid TT schools. Will they be in your desired market? Possibly, possibly not. I'm considering moving half way across the country because I want to succeed after law school. My market is bogged down by a number of T14 and T30 schools that push TT grads out of consideration. And since I don't have the numbers to get into the better schools, its a compromise.

Mr. Pancakes, it sounds like you have a guaranteed job. If you can get into a law school, by all means, go for it. However, you have to be sure you have what it takes to be a good lawyer and you need a quality education to teach you how to practice. I don't think the schools you can get into at this point will provide a solid legal foundation. The last thing you want to do is let your father's firm collapse because you're not qualified to take it over.


I'm sorry but the above is elitist as shit and just not true. Lower ranked schools can still provide a good education. The reason why most people should not attend lower ranked law schools is because the job prospects are terrible...not because the teaching is terrible. If Mr. Pancakes has a job lined up afterwards, all he should be worried about is just limiting debt. He shouldn't be worried that attending a lower-ranked school is going to give him a shit education, because that is bullshit. Stop being an asshole.

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mrtoren
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mrtoren » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:09 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I'm sorry but the above is elitist as shit and just not true. Lower ranked schools can still provide a good education. The reason why most people should not attend lower ranked law schools is because the job prospects are terrible...not because the teaching is terrible. If Mr. Pancakes has a job lined up afterwards, all he should be worried about is just limiting debt. He shouldn't be worried that attending a lower-ranked school is going to give him a shit education, because that is bullshit. Stop being an asshole.

That's crap. Saying that Cooley's legal education is on par with Yale's is like saying that an inner city public school offers the same curriculum as the Phillips Academy. In no way, shape, or form is that even remotely accurate. Does it vary less among schools that are similarly ranked? Yeah, sure. Will you learn enough about law from any accredited school to practice? Probably. But the caliber of your legal skills will be correlated to the school you attend.

Pancakes does have a job lined up, so OCU will do. That said, its still a big investment at $34,000/year in tuition plus potential living costs.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:40 am

mrtoren wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I'm sorry but the above is elitist as shit and just not true. Lower ranked schools can still provide a good education. The reason why most people should not attend lower ranked law schools is because the job prospects are terrible...not because the teaching is terrible. If Mr. Pancakes has a job lined up afterwards, all he should be worried about is just limiting debt. He shouldn't be worried that attending a lower-ranked school is going to give him a shit education, because that is bullshit. Stop being an asshole.

That's crap. Saying that Cooley's legal education is on par with Yale's is like saying that an inner city public school offers the same curriculum as the Phillips Academy. In no way, shape, or form is that even remotely accurate. Does it vary less among schools that are similarly ranked? Yeah, sure. Will you learn enough about law from any accredited school to practice? Probably. But the caliber of your legal skills will be correlated to the school you attend.

Pancakes does have a job lined up, so OCU will do. That said, its still a big investment at $34,000/year in tuition plus potential living costs. I'm not going to coddle him like some of you on here.


Dude, your reading comprehension sucks. All my point has been is that a person can get a good legal education at most law schools. (Job prospects is a completely different story.) And the biggest reason I could see the "caliber" of some someone's legal skills being correlated to the school being attended is because the class composition of the higher ranked schools. The idea that Columbia trains students to be better lawyers than like Fordham (or even Brooklyn) is a pretty odd assertion because of this fun fact about law school: law school doesn't really train you to be a lawyer at all.

Do you really think your legal education is going to be a lot shittier than mine? Do you think I'll be a better trained lawyer than you because, unless you retake, you're going to be going to a much lower ranked school than I am attending? If so, that's pretty sad.

And I don't generally coddle people. Pancake is in a very fortunate position because he has a job lined up afterwards. Even then, I told him he really should retake and try to go to a school on a fullride.

And here is another example of me not coddling people: You need to fucking man up and retake. Go through my post history and you'll see I'm not just picking on you--I've said this to plenty of people with low stats who are making what will be likely a very big mistake. You seem to be somewhat aware of how shitty things are but you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking that if you can go to a school like DePaul or Rutgers for 25k a year that it's a good idea. It's not. I don't care that you don't want biglaw. Your chances at getting "midlaw" or a government job from either are awful. Your chances of getting any sort legal job aren't the best. Don't say shit like retaking is not an option. Yes, it is. My LSAT diagnostic score was a 155 and I was able to get it up to a 174 with a shit-ton of work. It doesn't take a genius to do well on the test, it just takes a lot of practice. Going into 6 figures of debt for any school with shitty job prospects is a horrible idea when you could just man up, sit-out a year, and put into the effort on a retake to get into schools with much better job prospects.

Sorry for the derail OP, but the previous paragraph really applies to you too so it's hopefully not too much of a derail.

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csp21
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby csp21 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:04 pm

To all those telling him to "go study":
Maybe he did study...I get a feeling he did... :roll: Everyone has different limits, and there is no need to impose a certain desired LSAT score on him because your standards are higher. Some people have humbler dreams, and it ain't a sin.

03121202698008
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby 03121202698008 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:08 pm

csp21 wrote:To all those telling him to "go study":
Maybe he did study...I get a feeling he did... :roll: Everyone has different limits, and there is no need to impose a certain desired LSAT score on him because your standards are higher. Some people have humbler dreams, and it ain't a sin.


No. If a 154 is his limit, he's not cut out for law school.

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csp21
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby csp21 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:18 pm

blowhard wrote:
csp21 wrote:To all those telling him to "go study":
Maybe he did study...I get a feeling he did... :roll: Everyone has different limits, and there is no need to impose a certain desired LSAT score on him because your standards are higher. Some people have humbler dreams, and it ain't a sin.


No. If a 154 is his limit, he's not cut out for law school.


You can't say that. Basically you're saying that he's not cut out to be a lawyer either, then. This guy could work for a really small regional firm and be really good at it. Besides, you really can't say that he's not cut out for ANY law school. that's what the 'tiers' are for-different flavors for different needs and desires.

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cinephile
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby cinephile » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:40 pm

csp21 wrote:
You can't say that. Basically you're saying that he's not cut out to be a lawyer either, then. This guy could work for a really small regional firm and be really good at it. Besides, you really can't say that he's not cut out for ANY law school. that's what the 'tiers' are for-different flavors for different needs and desires.


A person might be cut out to be a lawyer, but if he can't get into a decent school, he'll never get a legal job. Of course, if someone's parent had their own firm or there was some other sure connection, then it wouldn't matter where you went to law school.

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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Mr Cooper » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:20 pm

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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Mr Cooper » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:21 pm

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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Mr Cooper » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:22 pm

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crossarmant
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby crossarmant » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:42 pm

Absolutely retake. Honestly, with a GPA of a 3.6, that took 4 years to get, what is a 4 hour exam and some studying? It's so worth it to retake and up your LSAT. If you can even get a 160 you'll be in good standing to possible get into some lower T1s. Do not waste a decent GPA.

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soitgoes9
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby soitgoes9 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:19 pm

I think a retake is the only logical option.

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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:07 pm

mrtoren wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I'm sorry but the above is elitist as shit and just not true. Lower ranked schools can still provide a good education. The reason why most people should not attend lower ranked law schools is because the job prospects are terrible...not because the teaching is terrible. If Mr. Pancakes has a job lined up afterwards, all he should be worried about is just limiting debt. He shouldn't be worried that attending a lower-ranked school is going to give him a shit education, because that is bullshit. Stop being an asshole.

That's crap. Saying that Cooley's legal education is on par with Yale's is like saying that an inner city public school offers the same curriculum as the Phillips Academy. In no way, shape, or form is that even remotely accurate. Does it vary less among schools that are similarly ranked? Yeah, sure. Will you learn enough about law from any accredited school to practice? Probably. But the caliber of your legal skills will be correlated to the school you attend.

Pancakes does have a job lined up, so OCU will do. That said, its still a big investment at $34,000/year in tuition plus potential living costs.


I would say Yale's curriculum is worse than Cooley's from the perspective of trying to pass the bar or being a practicing lawyer. At Yale, the professors and students may be smarter, the discussions more profound, the readings more theoretical, philosophical, or interesting, the opportunities for internships and clinics much better. But one school teaches you the law, or tries. The other makes no pretense of teaching you the law, because Yale Law School is not training its graduates to be lawyers.

OP: If you want a professional degree in a business capacity, work for a few years and then find a cheap MBA program. The GMAT is less focused on the dense reading that seems to be tripping you up on the LSAT. No law degree is going to add much value in a "business sense." If by "business sense" you mean you want to be able to get a day job while still pursuing your music career on the side, no school you get into will give you this option. If you want to pursue your music career, I would find a job right now and pursue your music career. If your parents are willing to pay for law school, I would take that money and use it to promote yourself as a musician.

I cannot see how a law degree would add any value in your situation. If you can't articulate why you think it will, you should be sitting down and seriously rethinking law school.




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