I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

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mcleary82
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I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mcleary82 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:42 am

Alright, I had been hoping to do much better on my LSATs but I've been struggling with insomnia for years and when it came time to take the test I was barely able to stay awake to get through the reading comprehension section as well as the logical reasoning. But, I don't want to whine and make excuses. The reason for this post is that I really need help with my application decisions. Obviously t-14 is out but can anyone give me some advice on who I should apply to where I will actually have a shot? I live in New York and my preferences would be with NYC or California but it doesn't really matter.

My current thoughts are:

Fordham
Brooklyn
University of Minnesota- twin cities
Chicago-Kent

Part of the thought is to get into one of these schools and work to be in the top 5% so that I can transfer up the ladder, so whichever school would set me up for that is also something to consider. Please, Please, Please, any help I can get.

03121202698008
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby 03121202698008 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:53 am

Do not plan on being in the top 50% let alone top 5%. 1L grades are virtually random. There is nothing you can do to ensure such an outcome. And honestly, if your insomnia is so bad to cause you to get a 154...how do you plan to deal with the stresses of law school? The amount of debt you will have out of those schools will be crushing. Consider a retake or alternative occupation.

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citykitty
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby citykitty » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:56 am

Retake.

mcleary82
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mcleary82 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:00 am

I can't see myself doing much better on a retake and I'm not all that interested in paying to take the test again, and the insomnia isn't my concern with schools, if someone can just give me an idea based on my number of what is that best I should attempt for, that's what I posted this for.

msuz
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby msuz » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:10 am

If you arent going to listen to advice about retaking/reconsidering your profession, then go to a local school that will give you the lowest amount of debt possible.

I prob wouldnt go to Minnesota if I wanted to end up in NYC or Cali. Your local T3 or T4 may give you a decent scholarship.

Read around these forums about debt and job prospects before you make your decision. Good luck

EDIT: also, read the different threads about going to a school expecting to transfer somewhere else.

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mrtoren
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mrtoren » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:32 am

154/3.6 will not get you into any of the schools you listed. It won't get you into any respectable CA or NY law schools...TT included. With those grades, and a refusal to retake, you need to shoot for small markets. Think North/South Dakota, Mississippi, Louisiana, Montana, Idaho, Maine. You may get into their respective flagship law schools and could find employment upon graduation. Beyond that, you could shoot for the stars and see where your cycle ends up. Just don't be surprised if you're not attending law school next fall.

Younger Abstention
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Younger Abstention » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:22 am

Perhaps you could attend Duquesne. While it is a tier 4 law school, and indeed, one of the lowest ranked schools in the country, it has its upsides: Firstly, Pittsburgh, voted one of the top 20 best places in the world by national geographic (http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/tr ... rips-2012/), has a low cost of living and a decent legal market. Second, you'd probably get a sizable scholarship there. Third, the city isn't saturated with higher ranked law schools and Duquesne is respected among firms and lawyers in the city. If you are into litigation, the trial ad program is one of the finest in the country. You'd need to be in the top 1% or so to make six figures, however.

If you consider this, or such comparable things, unpleasant to you, then you must retake the LSAT.

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thelawschoolproject
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby thelawschoolproject » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:32 am

The only school you listed that you have a chance at is Chicago-Kent, but that's no where close to a sure thing.

You need to retake.

But, as you don't want to do that, then you need to listen to the advice that's been presented to you ITT. I'm sure it's hard to hear that your options are limited, but that's a fact. Law school is competitive, and you aren't a competitive applicant right now.

Consider the following:
1). Where you want to practice.
2). Determine what TTT or TTTT schools are in that region.
3). Shoot for a scholarship, and do your best in school.

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top30man
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby top30man » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:41 am

Perhaps you could attend Duquesne.

No. Very bad idea. As a Pittsburgh resident, I can say all the best jobs are snatched by Pitt grads/t14 grads with ties. Pittsburgh is a very overcrowded market.

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law4vus
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby law4vus » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:43 am

mcleary82 wrote:I can't see myself doing much better on a retake and I'm not all that interested in paying to take the test again, and the insomnia isn't my concern with schools, if someone can just give me an idea based on my number of what is that best I should attempt for, that's what I posted this for.


If you can't bring yourself up to pay 200 bucks for a higher score on a relatively simple test, how the hell do you expect to gun for the top 5% of a LAW SCHOOL (yes, every law school is harder than the LSAT) that will put you into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt if you don't succeed?

Retake. And then rewire your brain.

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law4vus
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby law4vus » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:47 am

Younger Abstention wrote: If you are into litigation, the trial ad program is one of the finest in the country. .


This means squat. Specialty rankings are just another way to swindle people who don't do their research into paying 200K for a worthless degree.

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Grizz
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Grizz » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:01 am

You can't get into a Cali or NYC school worth going to with those numbers. Retake or don't go.

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cinephile
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby cinephile » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:36 am

I think you could get CUNY with these numbers, which isn't bad for the price, if you have family in NYC you could live with for free.

CanadianWolf
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:32 am

OP: Have you tried any remedies/treatment for your insomnia ? If you apply, add an LSAT addendum about your insomnia, but also address why this condition seemingly has not affected your GPA.

WSJ_Law
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby WSJ_Law » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:22 pm

Can you not just caffeine overload for the exam?

Sounds like you're not cut out for law school or law practice in a lot of ways, not the least of which being your LSAT score. I would reflect on my life choices, retake, and then re-evaluate my situation if i were OP.

PS: Insomnia seems immensely debilitating. I sincerely hope your condition gets better and that it won't further limit your opportunities.

mcleary82
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mcleary82 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:48 pm

For what it's worth, caffeine has no effect on me. I've downed energy drinks and 20 minutes later I was still falling asleep at work. I'm not looking to make excuses but the reason for my poor LSAT score is that I couldn't make it through the reading comprehension section because the biggest set back of my insomnia is that when I read, it makes me immediately start drifting off and I don't absorb the information like I used to. I was unable to finish the section and therefore had to fill in random bubbles for the last few questions. I appreciate the responses though most of them have been unnecessarily argumentative and offensive. I posted with the intention that everyone could assume that I'm capable and just focus on the best option for advancing with my current scores. I am 20 years old and my bachelor's is in Music which is my desired trade, but I'm also interested in an advanced, professional degree which could allow me to work in a business sense, not just a musician.

Obviously I know retaking the test is the best choice but I was hoping to get insight ignoring that fact so I could evaluate if I could be content with where I'd land without a retake.

Thanks anyway for those of you who tried to help more than just saying I'm an idiot and not cut out for this.

PS: Insomnia is terrible and definitely debilitating and I appreciate the sympathy though I'm not looking for it, just insight.

lats19nys
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby lats19nys » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:55 pm

mcleary82 wrote:For what it's worth, caffeine has no effect on me. I've downed energy drinks and 20 minutes later I was still falling asleep at work. I'm not looking to make excuses but the reason for my poor LSAT score is that I couldn't make it through the reading comprehension section because the biggest set back of my insomnia is that when I read, it makes me immediately start drifting off and I don't absorb the information like I used to. I was unable to finish the section and therefore had to fill in random bubbles for the last few questions. I appreciate the responses though most of them have been unnecessarily argumentative and offensive. I posted with the intention that everyone could assume that I'm capable and just focus on the best option for advancing with my current scores. I am 20 years old and my bachelor's is in Music which is my desired trade, but I'm also interested in an advanced, professional degree which could allow me to work in a business sense, not just a musician.

Obviously I know retaking the test is the best choice but I was hoping to get insight ignoring that fact so I could evaluate if I could be content with where I'd land without a retake.

Thanks anyway for those of you who tried to help more than just saying I'm an idiot and not cut out for this.

PS: Insomnia is terrible and definitely debilitating and I appreciate the sympathy though I'm not looking for it, just insight.


I think people are annoyed that you won't consider a retake and still want to hear only the positives. I think people cannot believe that you assume that you must be capable of doing something when you haven't been able to show any evidence of it. You can argue insomnia all you want but let's be honest, a lot of people have had to deal with a lot to take the LSATs and did fine. I for one worked 40-45 hours a week and still found 25-30 hours a week to study and scored in the 170s. And from what you wrote, it seems more about an ability to concentrate rather than insomnia. Additionally, as people discussed, get the issue resolved medically if it is such a great issue. Moreover, I think people are concerned that a person who supposedly cannot read under pressure will somehow be able to do well in law school and in the law profession in general when it is literally going to be all about reading all the time.

lats19nys
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby lats19nys » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:59 pm

Look. It doesn't benefit you for people to patronize you. They are just being honest about the situation and I think it's time you own up to it and make some changes with your life to make sure you put your best foot forward. All the excuses are only hindering your own growth.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:13 pm

1. Getting a higher LSAT score is much much much easier than getting top 5% your first year of law school and then transferring.

2. Your LSAT score right now is severely limiting you. The schools you may have a chance of getting into right now do not have good career prospects. And by not good career prospects, I don't mean you won't be able to get a biglaw job and make a lot of money--I mean that you may have a very difficult finding a legal job, period...which means a lot of debt and no increased career options (actually probably lessened career options) at the end of three years.

3. If you just want a job, there are better paths than law school, especially when one's choices are law schools with poor placement.

4. If reading dense material is a problem in light of your insomnia, law school sounds like it could be a nightmare for you. Law school is reading. A lot of reading. As in, I have read more in the last year and a half than I read in 4 years of undergrad combined....a lot more actually. I really enjoy reading and even then it can become tedious at times.

My advice? Plan on retaking in June and try to get at least into the mid to upper 160's. Make sure law school is the right path for you during this time too.

D10
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby D10 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:18 am

Definitely retake. You have quite a decent GPA and with some improvement to your LSAT score you can dramatically improve the types of law schools you can get admitted to. From my own experience (and from other LSAT takers I know), improving your score 5+ points from the mid-150s range is definitely doable with some effort. The fact that you know that your weakness is reading comprehension means that you can focus the bulk of your attention to that section. Good luck!

Geneva
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Geneva » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:13 pm

[quote="lats19nys"][quote="mcleary82"] I am 20 years old and my bachelor's is in Music which is my desired trade, but I'm also interested in an advanced, professional degree which could allow me to work in a business sense, not just a musician.

quote]

If your goal is to find a professional degree, does it have to be law? I have friends from T14 schools that graduated in May 2011 and still are unable to find jobs even though they graduated at the median. Even if you are able to transfer to T14 school, gainful employment is by no means guaranteed.

As an aside, I also have insomnia and can feel your pain (I fell asleep during the break portion of the LSAT and almost missed the second half of the test).

TooOld4This
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby TooOld4This » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:52 pm

mcleary82 wrote:I appreciate the responses though most of them have been unnecessarily argumentative and offensive. I posted with the intention that everyone could assume that I'm capable and just focus on the best option for advancing with my current scores. I am 20 years old.


People not agreeing with you and refusing to paint a rosy picture that doesn't match reality isn't being argumentative or offensive.

Whether you like it or not, your LSAT will determine not only where you get in, but how much money you will receive.

Your score is too low to get into any school for a price that justifies going there. Now you may chose to take a risk that you are going to "beat the odds" -- but such a decision will not be based on any objective measure that others can lay out for you.

This isn't a personal attack. The facts of law school admissions and legal hiring are what they are. With your scores the only schools you are likely to get into will cost more than you will be able to comfortably pay with the job you are likely to get after attending.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:40 pm

mrtoren wrote:154/3.6 will not get you into any of the schools you listed. It won't get you into any respectable CA or NY law schools...TT included. With those grades, and a refusal to retake, you need to shoot for small markets. Think North/South Dakota, Mississippi, Louisiana, Montana, Idaho, Maine. You may get into their respective flagship law schools and could find employment upon graduation. Beyond that, you could shoot for the stars and see where your cycle ends up. Just don't be surprised if you're not attending law school next fall.


I'm glad you scored a 154 because if you would have scored 3 points lower you would be officially not smart enough to be a good lawyer according to this numbnut.

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mrtoren
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby mrtoren » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Mr. Pancakes wrote:
mrtoren wrote:154/3.6 will not get you into any of the schools you listed. It won't get you into any respectable CA or NY law schools...TT included. With those grades, and a refusal to retake, you need to shoot for small markets. Think North/South Dakota, Mississippi, Louisiana, Montana, Idaho, Maine. You may get into their respective flagship law schools and could find employment upon graduation. Beyond that, you could shoot for the stars and see where your cycle ends up. Just don't be surprised if you're not attending law school next fall.


I'm glad you scored a 154 because if you would have scored 3 points lower you would be officially not smart enough to be a good lawyer according to this numbnut.

I'm sorry you disagree with my viewpoint. I'm also sorry that you have to resort to name-calling to fight back against it. You're obviously new around here. You obviously don't know what a 151 or even a 154 will do to your career. Like it or not, lawyers are a conservative group who don't take chances on graduates of diploma mill law schools. Is there an underdog story of someone who made it big out of these schools every now and then? Sure. But it gets press because its not the norm.

A 151 is about the average score that test-takers receive. 50th percentile. Barring you are of a historically disadvantaged group, you have no reason to attend law school with that score. Assuming the worst, a score like that shows one of a number of potential things: (1) you didn't take the test seriously, (2) you chose to take with test without studying much, if at all, or (3) you don't have the aptitude to succeed in law school. Jobs are few and far between for graduates these days. If everyone who took the LSAT could simply go to a good law school...the market would be flooded with unemployed lawyers. In fact, it already is. And those people have much higher LSAT scores and attended much better law schools than you'll ever get into.

The bottom line is this. You can take your 151, you can go to OKC U Law School, and you can work with your daddy's firm or you can retake it. Score higher and you may attend a much better law school, one you can be proud to graduate from. You'll also prove to yourself that this is the correct profession for you. Score the same, or lower, and you'll know you're not cut out for law school. Not everyone is.

bobbyh1919
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Re: I need some serious advice- 3.60, 154 LSAT

Postby bobbyh1919 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:29 pm

I agree with the above. 151 is the median for test takers, but you have to remember that almost everybody who scores <145 doesn't apply to law school, essentially meaning that a 151 is very low for applicants. I'm sure you could bump that up fairly easily, even grabbing 8 or so extra questions could translate to a significant score boost. I disagree with posters who say get a 165 or don't bother, but I think a 157-159 is very doable and will let you sneak into a handful of T2 schools.




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