Missing a school?

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ds52075
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Missing a school?

Postby ds52075 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:01 pm

I'm at the point where I'm ready to send out applications. My problem comes when I try to start narrowing my list of schools down. After reading the forums a lot I've gathered that outside of HYS law schools are all regional. What happens if you don't have a specific region you want? My wife and I are actually looking forward to the adventure of moving somewhere outside of NC. I don't want to apply to every school ranked 20-100 but there are few that I can eliminate for anything but the most obvious reasons (TTT are out).

Here's what I've got:
3.15, 160, 164 (not retaking again)
6 yrs out of undergrad all teaching high school. Masters in Education - 4.0 (though that means little)
My softs through my work experience are great, including some legal stuff
My PS is strong and my LORs are good.

here is my app list so far:
American
Boston College
Boston
University of Colorado
Fordham - NYC is the only place that I'm not sure I want to live (CoL too high)
GMU
GWU
GULC
University of Maryland
UNC
Northwestern
Penn State
UVA (ED for the heck of it)
Wake Forest
Washington
Washington and Lee
William and Mary - Strong essay for their Institute of Bill of Rights Law Fellowship
Wisconsin

Are any of these not worth applying to? Are there any that would be a good fit I am missing?
Thanks for any constructive help.

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law4vus
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby law4vus » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:11 pm

ds52075 wrote:American - In
Boston College - Out
Boston University? - Out
University of Colorado - In
Fordham - NYC is the only place that I'm not sure I want to live (CoL too high) - Out
GMU - WL/In
GWU - Out
GULC - Out
University of Maryland - In
UNC - Out
Northwestern - Out
Penn State - In
UVA (ED for the heck of it) - Out
Wake Forest - In
Washington - WL/Out
Washington and Lee - Out
William and Mary - Strong essay for their Institute of Bill of Rights Law Fellowship - Out
Wisconsin - WL

Are any of these not worth applying to? Are there any that would be a good fit I am missing?
Thanks for any constructive help.


Out of your list, I think you have a lot of schools that you really have zero shot at and wouldn't be worth the application fee. None of the T14 will take you, nor will most other schools in the top 30 besides maybe Wisconsin off the waitlist.

Look at the medians of the schools you're applying to. If your numbers are below both medians, you really don't stand much of a shot. You're well below both 25th percentiles for a lot of your schools.

Flesh out your application list with some more schools in the ranks 30-50 and some more T2s as well.

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Kring345
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby Kring345 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:15 pm

Law schools are regional in the sense that you may very well ONLY get a job from a region in which you have ties. While it may be exciting to escape NC, it may not be very exciting be unemployed because you went to school in CA.

Coming from a non-t14:
School in CA + Ties in NC = low chance at job unless you can market yourself extraordinarly well. Firms in CA are going to doubt your committment to stay in CA, and firms in NC are going to prefer students from the local schools/t14.

School in NC + Ties in NC = highER chance at a job in NC and lowER chance at job elsewhere. Now if you go to a top30 schools, for example, and knock it out of the park, TLS wisdom argues that you may have a chance at NYC biglaw. But dont expect to go to school in NC where you have ties and then get a job in San Diego or Austin.

Rereading this, my structure is confusing, but Im too lazy to fix it.

lawschoolgrapedme
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby lawschoolgrapedme » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:24 pm

IU-bloomington will probably give you a scholarship

ds52075
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby ds52075 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:43 am

Look at the medians of the schools you're applying to. If your numbers are below both medians, you really don't stand much of a shot. You're well below both 25th percentiles for a lot of your schools.

Flesh out your application list with some more schools in the ranks 30-50 and some more T2s as well.

Though I hate your answer, I thank you for it. I got fee waivers to a couple of them and will send in those apps. I think I will send in a couple more just in hopes that an admissions person accidentally trips and drops my file in the "wrong" pile. I will probably not submit to the others.

Law schools are regional in the sense that you may very well ONLY get a job from a region in which you have ties. While it may be exciting to escape NC, it may not be very exciting be unemployed because you went to school in CA.

I actually do have ties in California (graduated high school there), but I understand your main point. My wife and I are planning on staying where I end up in Law school, will that make a difference or is it more long term ties?

I'm going to reevaluate my list. Thanks for the help!

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reasonable_man
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:23 am

Since you're living in fantasy land... Northwestern? BC? GULC? UVA? - I mean at that point, why no HYS?

shastaca
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby shastaca » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:43 am

as ever law school predicter would give you a good idea.

It looks to me like you are wasting money on most of your list.

William and Mary and Wake are the only ones likely to take you. Colorado and Washington numbers are skewed because of lower instate numbers. Your numbers are nowhere near good enough to get in coming from out of state.

I'd look into SMU if I were you.

ds52075
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby ds52075 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:31 am

Since you're living in fantasy land... Northwestern? BC? GULC? UVA? - I mean at that point, why no HYS?

Overly optimistic about my Oct LSAT and weight of the time separating me from my abismal GPA.
That and because I hadn't been looking at my chances on the forum long enough to have my misconceptions ripped out through my anal cavity as people here are apt to do. (though I now understand a TLS enema was something my application list needed, I'm not going to be one of the people who receives the brutal honesty that is dished out here and still think my numbers don't stink)

I get it now and, thanks to your insight, I'm submitting my application to Cooley. :roll:

On a serious note, can I expect that the time since undergrad and my softs will do nothing to mitigate the effect of my aforementioned abysmal GPA?

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mattviphky
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby mattviphky » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:23 am

ds52075 wrote:
Since you're living in fantasy land... Northwestern? BC? GULC? UVA? - I mean at that point, why no HYS?

Overly optimistic about my Oct LSAT and weight of the time separating me from my abismal GPA.
That and because I hadn't been looking at my chances on the forum long enough to have my misconceptions ripped out through my anal cavity as people here are apt to do. (though I now understand a TLS enema was something my application list needed, I'm not going to be one of the people who receives the brutal honesty that is dished out here and still think my numbers don't stink)

I get it now and, thanks to your insight, I'm submitting my application to Cooley. :roll:

On a serious note, can I expect that the time since undergrad and my softs will do nothing to mitigate the effect of my aforementioned abysmal GPA?


Not nothing, but little. Also, your LSAT score, while a good score, isn't high enough to compensate for your GPA in the eyes of some of these schools...fwiw I have your same numbers.

ds52075
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby ds52075 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:32 am

Thanks for the reply, good luck with your apps! Where are you hoping to get in?

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TurtlesAllTheWayDown
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby TurtlesAllTheWayDown » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:43 am

reasonable_man wrote:Since you're living in fantasy land... Northwestern? BC? GULC? UVA? - I mean at that point, why no HYS?


I am constantly amazed at how you find ways to offer helpful information to others (which you frequently do) while still being a complete and total asshole to them.

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SilverE2
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby SilverE2 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:49 am

TurtlesAllTheWayDown wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Since you're living in fantasy land... Northwestern? BC? GULC? UVA? - I mean at that point, why no HYS?


I am constantly amazed at how you find ways to offer helpful information to others (which you frequently do) while still being a complete and total asshole to them.


Stick around. The feeling of amazement doesn't go away.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:02 am

SilverE2 wrote:
TurtlesAllTheWayDown wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Since you're living in fantasy land... Northwestern? BC? GULC? UVA? - I mean at that point, why no HYS?


I am constantly amazed at how you find ways to offer helpful information to others (which you frequently do) while still being a complete and total asshole to them.


Stick around. The feeling of amazement doesn't go away.


It's a rare talent. Op has little to be ashamed of, to be honest. In the real world (not TLS), his numbers are good (better than mine were), and will get him into a low T1, high T2. Fact of the matter is, opp fucked himself. He could have applied to the right band of schools and been offered serious scholarships, but instead, shot for the stars (in most cases). He's be better off sitting this cycle out and applying early to a realistic band of schools and taking money at one of them, rather than pay full boat at the schools he is just going to barely get into on this list. Because frankly, none of these schools (the ones he actually has a shot at getting into), are worth full price. For instance, assume the stars align just right and Fordham takes him.. That's great, but it’s with no money. Is Fordham at sticker worth full price? Not with the scores of unemployed graduates it hemorrhages year in and out. So yes, I'm a dick. And as anyone that knows me will attest, I'm fine with that. But in my very humble (not so humble who am I kidding), opinion, opp’s overly optimistic approach to applying has left him with few good options.

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TommyK
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby TommyK » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:14 am

if you're flexible where you will practice, maybe Ohio State or UIUIC (they may be reaching low due to the nonsense over there)? Either would be okay if you're going in-state.

Everybody thinks their softs are great, and their PS is strong, and their LOR's are good. I'm not saying yours aren't, but chances are they're average. You have some post-graduation experience, but my prediction is that it won't have a measurable impact on your cycle.

From your list, I wouldn't bother wasting the money at BC, BU, Fordham, GWU, GULC, NU, UVA, and W&M

ds52075
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby ds52075 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:18 am

I actually agree with your douchery. Thankfully the only schools on this list I have actually submitted to were fee waivers so no money lost there. Second point, the OP was to ask about the schools I should aim for. Thankfully you, in your infinite wisdom ruled out three options, and the rest of the posters gave sound advice. In no way have I screwed myself as it is still early in the cycle and I can now aim at the right range of schools. So your self-labeled asshole response actually played a small role in saving me. I owe you my future debt minimized life.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:23 am

lawschoolgrapedme wrote:IU-bloomington will probably give you a scholarship


Ba-zing!

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reasonable_man
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:27 am

ds52075 wrote:I actually agree with your douchery. Thankfully the only schools on this list I have actually submitted to were fee waivers so no money lost there. Second point, the OP was to ask about the schools I should aim for. Thankfully you, in your infinite wisdom ruled out three options, and the rest of the posters gave sound advice. In no way have I screwed myself as it is still early in the cycle and I can now aim at the right range of schools. So your self-labeled asshole response actually played a small role in saving me. I owe you my future debt minimized life.



That's good to hear. Line up a few apps at schools that are sure to give you significant aid. It's not that early anymore though, so I'd spend the next 2 weeks getting applications out to the schools that are going th throw you some serious $$$. No reason to wait on this. The earlier you get your apps in, the better, as money set aside for aid goes quickly...


All else aside, good luck to you.

ds52075
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby ds52075 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:42 am

Stick around. The feeling of amazement doesn't go away.


Wow, you were right!

That's good to hear. Line up a few apps at schools that are sure to give you significant aid. It's not that early anymore though, so I'd spend the next 2 weeks getting applications out to the schools that are going th throw you some serious $$$. No reason to wait on this. The earlier you get your apps in, the better, as money set aside for aid goes quickly...

All else aside, good luck to you.

This was a sincerely helpful post. Thank you.

keg411
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby keg411 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:48 am

OP: unfortunately, time does not take the stink off a bad undergrad GPA. Although being above a 3.0 probably helps. Also, while you have no location preference, you really should apply to UNC and Wake. Law school really is not the time for "adventure" of moving to a new location (unless you are going to a T14 and aiming for a national market where you have ties).

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reasonable_man
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:25 pm

keg411 wrote:OP: unfortunately, time does not take the stink off a bad undergrad GPA. Although being above a 3.0 probably helps. Also, while you have no location preference, you really should apply to UNC and Wake. Law school really is not the time for "adventure" of moving to a new location (unless you are going to a T14 and aiming for a national market where you have ties).


Some truth here Op. Any school you attend will have a local appeal. Thus, you should only apply to schools in a geographic region where you can see yourself living after law school. In other words, unless you want to move to NY and stay here, take Fordham right off the list... Non-T25ish schools tend to not have any appeal outside of their geographic region.

ds52075
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby ds52075 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:34 pm

I understand the lack of mobility after school but is it a bad idea to use the acceptance as a way to get into a market and stay there? Let's say Wisconsin or some other school in that range( even though it might be a reach for me). Would it be unreasonable to go there with the intent of staying there after graduating? Or would coming from out of state be seen as not having ties?

Edit: I think I am confusing post graduate mobility with pre acceptance mobility.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:33 pm

ds52075 wrote:I understand the lack of mobility after school but is it a bad idea to use the acceptance as a way to get into a market and stay there? Let's say Wisconsin or some other school in that range( even though it might be a reach for me). Would it be unreasonable to go there with the intent of staying there after graduating? Or would coming from out of state be seen as not having ties?

Edit: I think I am confusing post graduate mobility with pre acceptance mobility.


If you move to a state for LS and demonstrate an intent to stay there, then personally, I don't see that as a negative thing (from the perspective of a person who has interviewed many people for legal employment). Just keep in mind that moving 5 to 10 years down the line will be difficult, so you really should make sure that the location you move to is one in which you really believe you would be happy staying...

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Grizz
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby Grizz » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:34 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
ds52075 wrote:I understand the lack of mobility after school but is it a bad idea to use the acceptance as a way to get into a market and stay there? Let's say Wisconsin or some other school in that range( even though it might be a reach for me). Would it be unreasonable to go there with the intent of staying there after graduating? Or would coming from out of state be seen as not having ties?

Edit: I think I am confusing post graduate mobility with pre acceptance mobility.


If you move to a state for LS and demonstrate an intent to stay there, then personally, I don't see that as a negative thing (from the perspective of a person who has interviewed many people for legal employment). Just keep in mind that moving 5 to 10 years down the line will be difficult, so you really should make sure that the location you move to is one in which you really believe you would be happy staying...

Depending on how parochial the state is, the bold can be quite difficult. I'm thinking of Southern states especially.

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TommyK
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Re: Missing a school?

Postby TommyK » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:05 pm

Grizz wrote:Depending on how parochial the state is, the bold can be quite difficult. I'm thinking of Southern states especially.


I believe lawfirmrecruiter addressed this point specifically. IIRC, he's a recruiter for a decent sized law firm in the south and to him and those making hiring decisions, presence at a school are viewed as ties to the area. This is probably not a universally held belief, but the viewpoint is valuable. I think it becomes a hard sell if you grew up in Chicago, went to school at University of Florida, and tried interviewing for jobs in Houston.




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