ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

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quiver
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby quiver » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:56 pm

duckmoney wrote:At Columbia, everyone is gunning for NYC, and there's no hope of going to Chicago if that's not your thing.
I think saying there is "no hope" of going to Chicago is a bit strong. Certainly a lower chance than UofC, but (especially with ties) I think people from CLS have at least a fighting chance at Chicago (everything else being equal).

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rayiner
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby rayiner » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:14 pm

Curious1 wrote:This is very relevant to me, as those are my two "targets".

I'd add:

Chicago:

Smaller (automatically makes it less competitive)
Cheaper COL
Competitive atmosphere
Best school by far in a considerable market
Fucking cold and extremely dangerous/ghetto-ish
Nerdy.

Columbia:

Bigger (automatically makes it more competitive)
More expensive COL
3rd best in the NY market (after Y and H)
Less cold and slightly less ghetto-ish
Better looking (?)


U of C and CLS are almost identically situated in their respective markets. Inside Chicago, U of C is roughly a peer to NU, with Kirkland, Sidley, and Mayer hiring roughly the same from both. Both are behind H/Y, and there are plenty of students at those schools from the Midwest who want to come to Chicago (Kirkland in particular hires a ton of H grads). In New York, CLS is roughly a peer to NYU, and both are behind H/Y.

So the relative standing issue is a wash. What's important is the market. In this economy, it's much better to be a school that does well in the NYC market than one that does well in the Chicago market. Hiring in Chicago is still at a fraction of it's 2007 peak.

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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:16 pm


U of C and CLS are almost identically situated in their respective markets. Inside Chicago, U of C is roughly a peer to NU, with Kirkland, Sidley, and Mayer hiring roughly the same from both. Both are behind H/Y, and there are plenty of students at those schools from the Midwest who want to come to Chicago (Kirkland in particular hires a ton of H grads). In New York, CLS is roughly a peer to NYU, and both are behind H/Y.

So the relative standing issue is a wash. What's important is the market. In this economy, it's much better to be a school that does well in the NYC market than one that does well in the Chicago market. Hiring in Chicago is still at a fraction of it's 2007 peak.



Interesting that no one really mentions S. Do kids from there tend to stay in Cali? I'd think CLS and Chicago are both below Stanford as well.

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kwais
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:19 pm

Curious1 wrote:

U of C and CLS are almost identically situated in their respective markets. Inside Chicago, U of C is roughly a peer to NU, with Kirkland, Sidley, and Mayer hiring roughly the same from both. Both are behind H/Y, and there are plenty of students at those schools from the Midwest who want to come to Chicago (Kirkland in particular hires a ton of H grads). In New York, CLS is roughly a peer to NYU, and both are behind H/Y.

So the relative standing issue is a wash. What's important is the market. In this economy, it's much better to be a school that does well in the NYC market than one that does well in the Chicago market. Hiring in Chicago is still at a fraction of it's 2007 peak.



Interesting that no one really mentions S. Do kids from there tend to stay in Cali? I'd think CLS and Chicago are both below Stanford as well.


I believe that Stanford is SF/DC -------->NY

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Xifeng
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Xifeng » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:23 pm

okinawa wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Also, I don't know anything about Columbia, but UChicago is throwing money at PI lately. Obviously isn't a major part of the law school culture, but the money's there.


If you were seriously about PI, I don't know why you wouldn't choose NYU (especially with a little bit of money).


Yes, because making blanket assumptions without taking into people's clinical interests and individual financial packages makes a lot of sense.

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redsoxfan2495
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby redsoxfan2495 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:38 pm

These are peer schools, so the choice between the two will mostly come down to where you feel comfortable and where you want to spend three years. You ought to keep in mind that each school has an advantage in its respective market, and that Chicago is probably a bit better for clerkships, but other than that just see who gives you more money and check out the ASW's...

I do feel the need to defend CLS on a couple fronts though. First off, Morningside Heights is actually quite safe. I've never felt threatened at all in my time here. Basically, just don't cross the park after dark and you'll be fine. If you ever do feel uncomfortable Columbia security will pick you up for free. Secondly, JG Hall, while admittedly ugly on the outside, is pretty nice on the inside. If you need to look at pretty academic buildings walk over to the middle of campus. If you really need a pretty law building, go to Michigan.

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rayiner
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby rayiner » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:54 am

Curious1 wrote:

U of C and CLS are almost identically situated in their respective markets. Inside Chicago, U of C is roughly a peer to NU, with Kirkland, Sidley, and Mayer hiring roughly the same from both. Both are behind H/Y, and there are plenty of students at those schools from the Midwest who want to come to Chicago (Kirkland in particular hires a ton of H grads). In New York, CLS is roughly a peer to NYU, and both are behind H/Y.

So the relative standing issue is a wash. What's important is the market. In this economy, it's much better to be a school that does well in the NYC market than one that does well in the Chicago market. Hiring in Chicago is still at a fraction of it's 2007 peak.



Interesting that no one really mentions S. Do kids from there tend to stay in Cali? I'd think CLS and Chicago are both below Stanford as well.


Kirkland Chicago has 61 HLS grads, 5 SLS grads, and 7 YLS grads. Kirkland NY has 34 HLS grads, 1 SLS grad, and 6 YLS grads.

I think H/Y draw students from a broader geographic base and thus send them back to a broader geographic base. In Chicago you're not really competing with SLS grads at all, and only barely so in New York.

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dresden doll
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby dresden doll » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:55 am

I like it when people comment on the PI aspect in apparently blissful unawareness of lrap programs offered by the schools in question. Word to the wise : the revamped uchi lrap does not consider spousal income.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:21 am

Xifeng wrote:
okinawa wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Also, I don't know anything about Columbia, but UChicago is throwing money at PI lately. Obviously isn't a major part of the law school culture, but the money's there.


If you were seriously about PI, I don't know why you wouldn't choose NYU (especially with a little bit of money).


Yes, because making blanket assumptions without taking into people's clinical interests and individual financial packages makes a lot of sense.

The whole premise of this thread was making blanket assumptions without taking into account people's individual clinical interests or financial packages. Not particularly useful, sure, but that's how OP set things up.

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ahduth
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby ahduth » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:21 am

Not sure about the "clinical interests" PI bit with regards to U of C - what does that entail, wanting to work for the John Birch Society? I will admit being a conservative at NYU would probably be a pain in the ass, considering all the "save the world" business that goes on over here. But for anyone who is looking to do public interest work, supposedly the LRAP is top notch, and the support infrastructure at the school is probably an aspect of what embarrassed CLS into putting a "our PI program doesn't suck" presentation at the forefront of their ASW. Can't speak for U of C, but the graduation numbers don't seem to imply that the PI support is terribly developed either.

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ahduth
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby ahduth » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:25 am

rayiner wrote:
Curious1 wrote:This is very relevant to me, as those are my two "targets".

I'd add:

Chicago:

Smaller (automatically makes it less competitive)
Cheaper COL
Competitive atmosphere
Best school by far in a considerable market
Fucking cold and extremely dangerous/ghetto-ish
Nerdy.

Columbia:

Bigger (automatically makes it more competitive)
More expensive COL
3rd best in the NY market (after Y and H)
Less cold and slightly less ghetto-ish
Better looking (?)


U of C and CLS are almost identically situated in their respective markets. Inside Chicago, U of C is roughly a peer to NU, with Kirkland, Sidley, and Mayer hiring roughly the same from both. Both are behind H/Y, and there are plenty of students at those schools from the Midwest who want to come to Chicago (Kirkland in particular hires a ton of H grads). In New York, CLS is roughly a peer to NYU, and both are behind H/Y.

So the relative standing issue is a wash. What's important is the market. In this economy, it's much better to be a school that does well in the NYC market than one that does well in the Chicago market. Hiring in Chicago is still at a fraction of it's 2007 peak.


NYC firms love to see U of C grads (or so I've heard). I think it's just a diversity thing, given the huge number of positions they allocate to CLS/NYU and Harvard.

duckmoney
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby duckmoney » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:50 am

quiver wrote:
duckmoney wrote:At Columbia, everyone is gunning for NYC, and there's no hope of going to Chicago if that's not your thing.
I think saying there is "no hope" of going to Chicago is a bit strong. Certainly a lower chance than UofC, but (especially with ties) I think people from CLS have at least a fighting chance at Chicago (everything else being equal).


Yes, that is certainly true with ties. Chicago firms usually don't hire without ties though. NYC is about the only market that will hire without any real ties. If you have ties to neither city, going to UofC will establish a tie to Chicago and thus open up an extra market in addition to your home market and NYC.

keg411
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby keg411 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:15 am

duckmoney wrote:At Columbia, everyone is gunning for NYC, and there's no hope of going to Chicago if that's not your thing.


LOL, this is so wrong.

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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby lawschoolgrapedme » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:56 pm

Curious1 wrote:This is very relevant to me, as those are my two "targets".

I'd add:

Chicago:

Smaller (automatically makes it less competitive)
Cheaper COL
Competitive atmosphere
Best school by far in a considerable market
Fucking cold and extremely dangerous/ghetto-ish
Nerdy.

Columbia:

Bigger (automatically makes it more competitive)
More expensive COL
3rd best in the NY market (after Y and H)
Less cold and slightly less ghetto-ish
Better looking (?)


Columbia places more in Biglaw than Y...only 2nd to H...In fact, I think NYU places more than Y

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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby lawschoolgrapedme » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:00 pm

Curious1 wrote:

U of C and CLS are almost identically situated in their respective markets. Inside Chicago, U of C is roughly a peer to NU, with Kirkland, Sidley, and Mayer hiring roughly the same from both. Both are behind H/Y, and there are plenty of students at those schools from the Midwest who want to come to Chicago (Kirkland in particular hires a ton of H grads). In New York, CLS is roughly a peer to NYU, and both are behind H/Y.

So the relative standing issue is a wash. What's important is the market. In this economy, it's much better to be a school that does well in the NYC market than one that does well in the Chicago market. Hiring in Chicago is still at a fraction of it's 2007 peak.



Interesting that no one really mentions S. Do kids from there tend to stay in Cali? I'd think CLS and Chicago are both below Stanford as well.


So I'm not of this opinion as I'm not Ivy through and through, but several of my more prestigious (in terms of education) peers all firmly state that Stanford is a joke. Nothing more than a bunch of kids unable to make it to one of the East coast schools, and is only considered strong because there are no other programs on the West to compete with (except for Berkley)...whereas in the East you have H, Y, S, CLS, Penn...

Thoughts?

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annyong
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby annyong » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:02 pm

Xifeng wrote:Also, I don't know anything about Columbia, but UChicago is throwing money at PI lately. Obviously isn't a major part of the law school culture, but the money's there.

This is interesting/relevant to me. In what way? Through applicants having a stated interest in a PS or in current students electing to do PI internships/positions?

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Bildungsroman
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:50 pm

annyong wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Also, I don't know anything about Columbia, but UChicago is throwing money at PI lately. Obviously isn't a major part of the law school culture, but the money's there.

This is interesting/relevant to me. In what way? Through applicants having a stated interest in a PS or in current students electing to do PI internships/positions?

Awesome new LRAP and guaranteed $ for PI summer jobs, to name a couple.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:44 pm

lawschoolgrapedme wrote:Columbia places more in Biglaw than Y...only 2nd to H...In fact, I think NYU places more than Y


lawschoolgrapedme wrote:So I'm not of this opinion as I'm not Ivy through and through, but several of my more prestigious (in terms of education) peers all firmly state that Stanford is a joke. Nothing more than a bunch of kids unable to make it to one of the East coast schools, and is only considered strong because there are no other programs on the West to compete with (except for Berkley)...whereas in the East you have H, Y, S, CLS, Penn...

Thoughts?

You're either a troll, or the worst poster on TLS (and that's saying something).

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Bildungsroman
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:29 pm

lawschoolgrapedme wrote:
So I'm not of this opinion as I'm not Ivy through and through, but several of my more prestigious (in terms of education) peers all firmly state that Stanford is a joke. Nothing more than a bunch of kids unable to make it to one of the East coast schools, and is only considered strong because there are no other programs on the West to compete with (except for Berkley)...whereas in the East you have H, Y, S, CLS, Penn...

Thoughts?

My thought is that those peers of yours are retarded.

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okinawa
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby okinawa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:35 pm

.
Last edited by okinawa on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

duckmoney
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby duckmoney » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:42 pm

keg411 wrote:
duckmoney wrote:At Columbia, everyone is gunning for NYC, and there's no hope of going to Chicago if that's not your thing.


LOL, this is so wrong.


Should have added the big stipulation unless you have ties. Chicago firms won't hire a Columbia grad who's never been to Chicago and has no real reason to be in Chicago. Probably explains why Kirkland Chicago currently has 3 associates with Columbia degrees, and one of them is a lateral.

NYC is one of the few markets that will hire from anywhere without ties. That's why going to Chicago opens up a new market and still gives grads the opportunity to go to NYC. Going to Columbia doesn't open up a new market as you could get to NYC from any T14 anyway. (Granted, Columbia is a great school and gives you a damn good shot at NYC biglaw).

If you have ties to Chicago and want to end up in Chicago, then yes, you can get there from Columbia no problem. But why not just go to U of C?

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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby lawschoolgrapedme » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:58 pm

duckmoney wrote:
keg411 wrote:
duckmoney wrote:At Columbia, everyone is gunning for NYC, and there's no hope of going to Chicago if that's not your thing.


LOL, this is so wrong.


Should have added the big stipulation unless you have ties. Chicago firms won't hire a Columbia grad who's never been to Chicago and has no real reason to be in Chicago. Probably explains why Kirkland Chicago currently has 3 associates with Columbia degrees, and one of them is a lateral.

NYC is one of the few markets that will hire from anywhere without ties. That's why going to Chicago opens up a new market and still gives grads the opportunity to go to NYC. Going to Columbia doesn't open up a new market as you could get to NYC from any T14 anyway. (Granted, Columbia is a great school and gives you a damn good shot at NYC biglaw).

If you have ties to Chicago and want to end up in Chicago, then yes, you can get there from Columbia no problem. But why not just go to U of C?


Um, well I'm at CLS. No ties to Chicago. And had a callback with Skadden (chi), Kirkland (chi), and Jones Day (Chi). Above is false.

(oh, and I turned them all down, but just because I wanted to stay in NY).

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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Coco_Local » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:17 pm

As an alum of Chicago, I think students applying to law school and (some)1L's put way too much weight into whether students immediately end up in public interest.

I'm an AUSA right now and most people in my office spent time in big firms paying off debt and clerking before ending up here. What I didn't realize was seven or eight years after school, I would have had three completely different jobs. Biglaw is definitely not an endpoint, but it's a credential that helps you pay off debt and get you that job you eventually will like without the hassle of dealing with LRAPs.

That said, they are pretty similar. Break out a COLA calculator and see which is cheapest. Go there.

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Xifeng
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Xifeng » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:55 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
annyong wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Also, I don't know anything about Columbia, but UChicago is throwing money at PI lately. Obviously isn't a major part of the law school culture, but the money's there.

This is interesting/relevant to me. In what way? Through applicants having a stated interest in a PS or in current students electing to do PI internships/positions?

Awesome new LRAP and guaranteed $ for PI summer jobs, to name a couple.


Yeah, I guess this wasn't clear before, but basically Chicago is STARTING to throw money at PI. They just revamped their LRAP and are now guaranteeing $5k/summer for qualified jobs. Starting with the class of 2014 I believe. So you won't really see the #s for a while.

And I think you can't just say, "If you want PI, go to NYU." People who want to do PI straight out need to consider where is cheapest, which is why deciding before you get all your financial packages is silly.

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kwais
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby kwais » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:16 pm

ahduth wrote:Not sure about the "clinical interests" PI bit with regards to U of C - what does that entail, wanting to work for the John Birch Society? I will admit being a conservative at NYU would probably be a pain in the ass, considering all the "save the world" business that goes on over here. But for anyone who is looking to do public interest work, supposedly the LRAP is top notch, and the support infrastructure at the school is probably an aspect of what embarrassed CLS into putting a "our PI program doesn't suck" presentation at the forefront of their ASW. Can't speak for U of C, but the graduation numbers don't seem to imply that the PI support is terribly developed either.


you are a not-so-subtle troll. I went to ASW and saw none of this. I bet they said one thing and you will be riding it for the rest of your career.




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