ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

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bluedvl
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ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby bluedvl » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:50 am

Location:
Chicago vs New York (depends on preference but New York is more expensive although Hyde Park is in a worst part of town)

Biglaw:
Basically the same, although each are better in their respective cities

Clerkships/Academia:
Chicago is better

PI/Gov't:
Columbia is better

Lay Prestige:
Columbia

Keep adding on to this if you guys have more

Curious1
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:09 am

This is very relevant to me, as those are my two "targets".

I'd add:

Chicago:

Smaller (automatically makes it less competitive)
Cheaper COL
Competitive atmosphere
Best school by far in a considerable market
Fucking cold and extremely dangerous/ghetto-ish
Nerdy.

Columbia:

Bigger (automatically makes it more competitive)
More expensive COL
3rd best in the NY market (after Y and H)
Less cold and slightly less ghetto-ish
Better looking (?)

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WhiteGuy5
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:35 am

What does COL mean?

071816
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby 071816 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:36 am

WhiteGuy5 wrote:What does COL mean?


cost of living

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Xifeng
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Xifeng » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:45 am

Having lived in NYC and now attending UChicago, I just want to add a few things.

1. Hyde Park is WAY cheaper than Manhattan. Hands down. You can get a really nice place here. It's definitely more of a bitch to get downtown here than in NYC because you don't want to take certain 24/7 transportation, but cabs are also pretty cheap.

2. Hyde Park really isn't super dangerous unless you're not smart about it. There's a lot of safe ride stuff, you can get UChicago police to walk with you, etc. Just be smart and you probably won't have a problem. And Columbia's area isn't exactly the best in Manhattan either, so you'd probably want to exercise caution there too. As you should in any urban situation.

3. So far, UChicago doesn't seem to have a competitive atmosphere. This could change once we start getting grades and things, but people are (surprisingly) relaxed. I was expecting awful things, but it really hasn't been competitive.

4. I am really not sure what you're talking about in terms of better looking. Better looking people? No idea, maybe? You can creep on us UChicago kids when you get the Glass Menagerie in the mail later on. But UChicago Law's building is WAY nicer than Columbia Law's building.

I would add that UChicago has a much more present conservative group of students than a lot of other law schools. This is obviously a pro or con for different people, but something you could keep in mind.

Curious1
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:56 am

Xifeng wrote:Having lived in NYC and now attending UChicago, I just want to add a few things.

1. Hyde Park is WAY cheaper than Manhattan. Hands down. You can get a really nice place here. It's definitely more of a bitch to get downtown here than in NYC because you don't want to take certain 24/7 transportation, but cabs are also pretty cheap.

2. Hyde Park really isn't super dangerous unless you're not smart about it. There's a lot of safe ride stuff, you can get UChicago police to walk with you, etc. Just be smart and you probably won't have a problem. And Columbia's area isn't exactly the best in Manhattan either, so you'd probably want to exercise caution there too. As you should in any urban situation.

3. So far, UChicago doesn't seem to have a competitive atmosphere. This could change once we start getting grades and things, but people are (surprisingly) relaxed. I was expecting awful things, but it really hasn't been competitive.

4. I am really not sure what you're talking about in terms of better looking. Better looking people? No idea, maybe? You can creep on us UChicago kids when you get the Glass Menagerie in the mail later on. But UChicago Law's building is WAY nicer than Columbia Law's building.

I would add that UChicago has a much more present conservative group of students than a lot of other law schools. This is obviously a pro or con for different people, but something you could keep in mind.


The attractiveness was from general consensus about the university in general (which was mostly about the guys). Quite honestly nothing matters as much as biglaw placement for me. And I think the fact that UChi has a far smaller class (therefore more interviews?) is a huge plus.

I really really enjoyed visiting UChicago (I've done it every year for the past 3 years) every time. I love the city and the campus and everything, and it's definitely one of my top choices.

Here's to hoping they throw me a Ruby to cinch my commitment :)

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ahduth
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby ahduth » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:45 am

Hyde Park is barely in Chicago. But I suppose that doesn't matter given how much RIGOR you get at U of C law.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:56 am

bluedvl wrote:PI/Gov't:
Columbia is better

O rly?

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ahduth
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby ahduth » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:19 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:
bluedvl wrote:PI/Gov't:
Columbia is better

O rly?


This.

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kwais
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:25 am

Can't say much about UChi, but I have loved every minute of CLS so far. Location, profs, students all top notch. I'm sure you can't go wrong at either place.

bluedvl
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby bluedvl » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:11 pm

hmm so I guess pi at columbias not that good, although I've heard chicago's is nonexistant so I'd assume it probably still gets the edge. Also, should gov't and pi be split up?

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quiver
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby quiver » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:42 pm

Curious1 wrote:This is very relevant to me, as those are my two "targets".

I'd add:

Chicago:

Smaller (automatically makes it less competitive)
Cheaper COL
Competitive atmosphere
Best school by far in a considerable market
Fucking cold and extremely dangerous/ghetto-ish
Nerdy.

Columbia:

Bigger (automatically makes it more competitive)
More expensive COL
3rd best in the NY market (after Y and H)
Less cold and slightly less ghetto-ish
Better looking (?)

I would be careful making assumptions that size = competitiveness. Having been at 2 law schools of very different sizes, I can say that smaller schools can be just as competitive, if not more so, than larger schools. There are obviously a lot of variables that go into this, but to say that size "automatically" makes a school more competitive is a bit extreme IMO.

Also, saying Columbia is 3rd best in NY after Y and H seems slightly ridiculous to me. YHS will generally rank above any other school in any other market. So Y and H would be above U of C in Chicago too. Are you saying that no Y or H students shoot for Chicago? Not sure what you are getting at here.

Curious1
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:57 pm

I would be careful making assumptions that size = competitiveness. Having been at 2 law schools of very different sizes, I can say that smaller schools can be just as competitive, if not more so, than larger schools. There are obviously a lot of variables that go into this, but to say that size "automatically" makes a school more competitive is a bit extreme IMO.

Also, saying Columbia is 3rd best in NY after Y and H seems slightly ridiculous to me. YHS will generally rank above any other school in any other market. So Y and H would be above U of C in Chicago too. Are you saying that no Y or H students shoot for Chicago? Not sure what you are getting at here.


What I meant about size was that say 200 firms recruit at UChicago and the same 200 firms recruit at Columbia, then because Columbia has more people than Chicago, there will be more people gunning for each firm and each job. I'm making a lot of assumptions there but because they're peer schools I'd guess they're not that far-fetched? If you know about this please enlighten me.

About the argument of market. Yes it's true HYS do better everywhere, but numbers seem to suggest that the majority of H and Y end up in the NY market. Of course the NY market is a million times larger than every other market is a huge factor in this, but Chicago is strong in Chicago--that IS pretty certain.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:29 pm

bluedvl wrote:hmm so I guess pi at columbias not that good, although I've heard chicago's is nonexistant so I'd assume it probably still gets the edge. Also, should gov't and pi be split up?

Class of 2009 on LST has Chicago (LinkRemoved) at 3.5% PI and 2.5% gov, Columbia (LinkRemoved)at 3.1% PI and 2.2% gov. (NYU (LinkRemoved), fwiw, had 9.7% PI and 3.9% gov that year.)

Those margins are pretty small, and at a school the size of Chicago there's going to be some flukey fluctuations year to year (Chicago had all of .5% in PI in 2008, for example). The other problem is that it doesn't distinguish between different kinds of gov or PI.

So, really, not all that much information out there, and what we have isn't all that useful. But bottom line, I'm not seeing anything that says Columbia is objectively better than Chicago for gov/PI. If you can find more detailed or more up to date info, go for it.

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quiver
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby quiver » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:06 pm

Curious1 wrote:
I would be careful making assumptions that size = competitiveness. Having been at 2 law schools of very different sizes, I can say that smaller schools can be just as competitive, if not more so, than larger schools. There are obviously a lot of variables that go into this, but to say that size "automatically" makes a school more competitive is a bit extreme IMO.

Also, saying Columbia is 3rd best in NY after Y and H seems slightly ridiculous to me. YHS will generally rank above any other school in any other market. So Y and H would be above U of C in Chicago too. Are you saying that no Y or H students shoot for Chicago? Not sure what you are getting at here.


What I meant about size was that say 200 firms recruit at UChicago and the same 200 firms recruit at Columbia, then because Columbia has more people than Chicago, there will be more people gunning for each firm and each job. I'm making a lot of assumptions there but because they're peer schools I'd guess they're not that far-fetched? If you know about this please enlighten me.

About the argument of market. Yes it's true HYS do better everywhere, but numbers seem to suggest that the majority of H and Y end up in the NY market. Of course the NY market is a million times larger than every other market is a huge factor in this, but Chicago is strong in Chicago--that IS pretty certain.
Firms will go deeper into the class at Columbia rather than UofC (in total number of people) and there are enough jobs to go around for top 50% from Columbia considering it primarily feeds NYC. So no, you are not necessarily all competing for the same jobs.

Nobody is debating that UofC is strong in Chicago, of course it is. But Columbia is just as strong in NYC and as you pointed out, NYC is where the most jobs are, hence why many YH people go there. That does not make CLS "3rd best" in NYC any more than it makes UofC 3rd best in Chicago.

Curious1
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:10 pm

First, I assumed you were referring to competitiveness of the school culture. Second, firms will go deeper into the class at Columbia rather than UofC (in total number of people) and there are enough jobs to go around for top 50% from Columbia considering it primarily feeds NYC. So no, you are not necessarily all competing for the same jobs.

Nobody is debating that UofC is strong in Chicago, of course it is. But Columbia is just as strong in NYC and as you pointed out, NYC is where the most jobs are, hence why many YH people go there. That does not make CLS "3rd best" in NYC any more than it makes UofC 3rd best in Chicago.


Sure, you don't have to bite my head off. I think they're both great schools, and Columbia probably edges out Chicago a tiny bit.

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quiver
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby quiver » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:18 pm

Curious1 wrote:
Firms will go deeper into the class at Columbia rather than UofC (in total number of people) and there are enough jobs to go around for top 50% from Columbia considering it primarily feeds NYC. So no, you are not necessarily all competing for the same jobs.

Nobody is debating that UofC is strong in Chicago, of course it is. But Columbia is just as strong in NYC and as you pointed out, NYC is where the most jobs are, hence why many YH people go there. That does not make CLS "3rd best" in NYC any more than it makes UofC 3rd best in Chicago.


Sure, you don't have to bite my head off. I think they're both great schools, and Columbia probably edges out Chicago a tiny bit.
I completely agree, they're both amazing schools. And I wasn't trying to say CLS is any better, I was merely addressing the criteria you listed further up in the thread. I was also responding to this:
Curious1 wrote:If you know about this please enlighten me.

kaiser
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby kaiser » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:22 pm

Size of the class isn't directly related to competition. It is all relative to the number of jobs available in the markets people are striving for. Lets say hypothetically (although it may very well be true) that the vast majority of Chicago grads want jobs in Chicago, and the same applies for Columbia and NYC. NYC is a lot bigger and has many more jobs available. Thus, competition might even be less at Chicago. You would need to compare the size of the class relative to the jobs available, also accounting for the amount of outside competition from other schools, etc. So don't assume that bigger class = more competitive, and vice versa. Although that correlation might possibly exist, it shouldn't be a default presumption.

Curious1
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:22 pm

quiver wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
Firms will go deeper into the class at Columbia rather than UofC (in total number of people) and there are enough jobs to go around for top 50% from Columbia considering it primarily feeds NYC. So no, you are not necessarily all competing for the same jobs.

Nobody is debating that UofC is strong in Chicago, of course it is. But Columbia is just as strong in NYC and as you pointed out, NYC is where the most jobs are, hence why many YH people go there. That does not make CLS "3rd best" in NYC any more than it makes UofC 3rd best in Chicago.


Sure, you don't have to bite my head off. I think they're both great schools, and Columbia probably edges out Chicago a tiny bit.
I completely agree, they're both amazing schools. And I wasn't trying to say CLS is any better, I was merely addressing the criteria you listed further up in the thread. I was also responding to this:
Curious1 wrote:If you know about this please enlighten me.


No prob. Thanks for the insight. From what you've said, it seems the way it works is: if 200 firms recruit at Chicago and the same 200 recruit at Columbia, then they might take more people per firm from Columbia because of the larger class size. In other words, the 200 firms might have 300 "spots" reserved for Chicago but 400 for Columbia.

The numbers were completely made up...

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Helmholtz
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:25 pm

I would just go the one at which you feel the most comfortable and/or whichever one gives you the most money. Consider the school, the location, study spots, and what type of apartment / lifestyle you can afford on your student budget. Maybe look to see what kind of classes they offer to 2Ls/3Ls. Trying to pick out small differences in things like placement into biglaw / top government positions is kind of stupid IMO.

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quiver
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby quiver » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:35 pm

Curious1 wrote:No prob. Thanks for the insight. From what you've said, it seems the way it works is: if 200 firms recruit at Chicago and the same 200 recruit at Columbia, then they might take more people per firm from Columbia because of the larger class size. In other words, the 200 firms might have 300 "spots" reserved for Chicago but 400 for Columbia.

The numbers were completely made up...

Yeah, essentially. I thought of it this way: if you go 100 people deep into CLS you're still in Stone territory whereas 100 people deep into UofC, you're approaching (or at) median. So it's not that they're reserving slots per se, but that there will be more people at CLS with the same stats. Obviously there are a billion other factors that go into it too, but this is basically what I was saying (in addition to the fact that CLS feeds NYC where there a 1000x more jobs). That was all just with respect to competitiveness for jobs in total numbers. But CLS and UofC are peer schools so Helmholtz has TCR here:
I would just go the one at which you feel the most comfortable and/or whichever one gives you the most money. Consider the school, the location, study spots, and what type of apartment / lifestyle you can afford on your student budget. Maybe look to see what kind of classes they offer to 2Ls/3Ls. Trying to pick out small differences in things like placement into biglaw / top government positions is kind of stupid IMO.
Last edited by quiver on Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ahduth
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby ahduth » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:38 pm

Curious1 wrote:
First, I assumed you were referring to competitiveness of the school culture. Second, firms will go deeper into the class at Columbia rather than UofC (in total number of people) and there are enough jobs to go around for top 50% from Columbia considering it primarily feeds NYC. So no, you are not necessarily all competing for the same jobs.

Nobody is debating that UofC is strong in Chicago, of course it is. But Columbia is just as strong in NYC and as you pointed out, NYC is where the most jobs are, hence why many YH people go there. That does not make CLS "3rd best" in NYC any more than it makes UofC 3rd best in Chicago.


Sure, you don't have to bite my head off. I think they're both great schools, and Columbia probably edges out Chicago a tiny bit.


You were doing yourself well there for awhile. But... you failed this time.

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Xifeng
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby Xifeng » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:45 pm

Also, I don't know anything about Columbia, but UChicago is throwing money at PI lately. Obviously isn't a major part of the law school culture, but the money's there.

duckmoney
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby duckmoney » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:56 pm

One major benefit to Chicago is that it opens up an additional market. Columbia generally feeds NYC and Chicago usually feeds Chicago, but Chicago grads go to NYC too. NYC firms like diversity of law schools, so they'll give spots to Chicago students, and you won't be competing for the same slots as everyone else in your class. At Columbia, everyone is gunning for NYC, and there's no hope of going to Chicago if that's not your thing.

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okinawa
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Re: ultimate chicago vs columbia thread

Postby okinawa » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:25 pm

.
Last edited by okinawa on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.




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