Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

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Buffalo vs. Hofstra

Buffalo (in-state)
22
58%
Hofstra (live at home)
16
42%
 
Total votes: 38

Voodoo94
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Voodoo94 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:51 pm

This is incorrect.
http://law.buffalo.edu/career_services/ ... atistics11
It's only 14% and that includes long island (all of them could be long island for all we know).

Hofstra says that it places 87% in NY and NJ (all of them could be in NJ for all we know, or anywhere else in NY besides NYC).
http://law.hofstra.edu/StudentLife/Care ... stics.html

You said you're looking to be a DA: according to the stats above, Hofstra places 10% into government and UB places 13%. Pretty negligible at that level in my opinion.

Ideally you would retake to either 1) get into better schools or 2) get scholarships at these schools (I think UB gives an automatic 5k scholarship if your LSAT is above 160). If you must choose at this juncture I'd say visit both to determine which you like better; the employment prospects are pretty comparable. I will note that UB pretty much has a lock on the Buffalo area however. Therefore, despite the similarity in employment stats, it may still be easier to get a job from UB (if you don't mind living in Buffalo/upstate) than from Hofstra.


Quiver,

By citing that 30% of our alumni practice in the NYC area, I was talking about our total alumni base - not just recent graduates. Historically, UB Law had a much greater enrollment from downstate than it has over the past 15-20 years. Consequently, a greater number were interested in downstate employment and returned there. I stand by my numbers (see my last post). Hopefully, UB Law will benefit as more downstate students see the folly of enslaving themselves with onerous student loan debt by attending Hofstra, St. Johns and Brooklyn.

"Government" means a of of different things. In the Federal government, UB Law punches way above its weight class. It's track record of placements through the PMF program, IRS and FDIC (among others) rivals much higher ranked schools. On the Federal side (i.e DC), a place like Hofstra can't hold a candle to UB Law. Furthermore, the relatively low debt load of UB Law grads expands their opportunities to explore Federal and nonprofit opportunities.

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quiver
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby quiver » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:55 pm

Voodoo94 wrote:If I were you, I would seriously look into one of the dual degree programs. Think about it - if you graduate in May 2015, you wont be admitted into the NY Bar until late January/early February 2016. Why not just pick up a Masters by staying a 4th year and graduate "employment ready" the May after getting your JD (May 2016) - a net "loss" of 3 months. You get a Masters for abut $7,000 extra dollars and double your employment prospects.

I don't really see how this is true. While the extra degree could be relatively inexpensive, I fail to see how it "doubles your employment prospects" for getting a job as a lawyer. If you are referring to getting a non-legal job (for example by getting an MBA), this is theoretically more possible but there are numerous threads around here to the contrary (in sum, other employers will see you as a flight risk). Clearly you got a dual degree and it worked out for you, but to make a blanket statement that a masters degree unrelated to law will make you any more "employment ready" for a legal job or "double your employment prospects" seems a bit inaccurate/hyperbolic. I would be the first to admit I'm wrong if you could present some stats to support your position.

In sum, I think a cheap dual degree is rarely ever a reason to choose a specific LAW school. There are many other factors of greater importance to consider before reaching the price of a dual degree as a comparable measure.

Voodoo94
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Voodoo94 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:14 am

I don't really see how this is true. While the extra degree could be relatively inexpensive, I fail to see how it "doubles your employment prospects" for getting a job as a lawyer. If you are referring to getting a non-legal job (for example by getting an MBA), this is theoretically more possible but there are numerous threads around here to the contrary (in sum, other employers will see you as a flight risk). Clearly you got a dual degree and it worked out for you, but to make a blanket statement that a masters degree unrelated to law will make you any more "employment ready" for a legal job or "double your employment prospects" seems a bit inaccurate/hyperbolic. I would be the first to admit I'm wrong if you could present some stats to support your position.

In sum, I think a cheap dual degree is rarely ever a reason to choose a specific LAW school. There are many other factors of greater importance to consider before reaching the price of a dual degree as a comparable measure.


Quiver,

If a prospective student in November, 2011, is banking on getting exclusively "law" jobs in this economy, enrolling anywhere lower than the T-14 is pure folly. The sad reality is that most 2nd Tier and 3rd Tier grads either never get "law" jobs or wind up leaving the practice of law after a few years.

For a student at a non T-14 school, I don't think a second degree is a bad bet - especially if it can be earned at relatively low financial and opportunity cost. The stark reality is that a dual degree greatly expands your options - especially in the Federal service. An MSW, MPP, MPA, MHA, MUP, or MPH (along with a JD) literally doubles the number of series (job classification categories) you qualify for. In many of these "non law" series, a JD is actually viewed favorably as many positions deal extensively with legislative, regulatory and statutory interpretation/analysis.

Here's a news flash to soon-to-be-JD grads: the job market is brutal and a "plain vanilla" JD alone from a TT or TTT is a quick ticket to nowhere. Recent entry level attorney positions (0905 series) in my agency have attracted between 1,500 and 2,000 applicants. Entry level, non-law, GS-09 positions (series 0301 and 0343) have attracted hundreds of qualified applicants - folks with PhDs, T-14 JDs, etc.

If someone wants a government position, they should get a dual degree. Yes, it literally "doubles" the number of positions you can compete for. Furthermore, you get multiple "bites at the apple" by being qualified to apply for JD-only programs as well as a range of programs available for students with non-law graduate degrees.

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quiver
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby quiver » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 am

Voodoo94 wrote:
I don't really see how this is true. While the extra degree could be relatively inexpensive, I fail to see how it "doubles your employment prospects" for getting a job as a lawyer. If you are referring to getting a non-legal job (for example by getting an MBA), this is theoretically more possible but there are numerous threads around here to the contrary (in sum, other employers will see you as a flight risk). Clearly you got a dual degree and it worked out for you, but to make a blanket statement that a masters degree unrelated to law will make you any more "employment ready" for a legal job or "double your employment prospects" seems a bit inaccurate/hyperbolic. I would be the first to admit I'm wrong if you could present some stats to support your position.

In sum, I think a cheap dual degree is rarely ever a reason to choose a specific LAW school. There are many other factors of greater importance to consider before reaching the price of a dual degree as a comparable measure.


Quiver,

If a prospective student in November, 2011, is banking on getting exclusively "law" jobs in this economy, enrolling anywhere lower than the T-14 is pure folly. The sad reality is that most 2nd Tier and 3rd Tier grads either never get "law" jobs or wind up leaving the practice of law after a few years.

For a student at a non T-14 school, I don't think a second degree is a bad bet - especially if it can be earned at relatively low financial and opportunity cost. The stark reality is that a dual degree greatly expands your options - especially in the Federal service. An MSW, MPP, MPA, MHA, MUP, or MPH (along with a JD) literally doubles the number of series (job classification categories) you qualify for. In many of these "non law" series, a JD is actually viewed favorably as many positions deal extensively with legislative, regulatory and statutory interpretation/analysis.

Here's a news flash to soon-to-be-JD grads: the job market is brutal and a "plain vanilla" JD alone from a TT or TTT is a quick ticket to nowhere. Recent entry level attorney positions (0905 series) in my agency have attracted between 1,500 and 2,000 applicants. Entry level, non-law, GS-09 positions (series 0301 and 0343) have attracted hundreds of qualified applicants - folks with PhDs, T-14 JDs, etc.

Fair enough. I suppose my perspective is screwed toward employment coming out of a T14. I will emphasize this point though:
Voodoo94 wrote:If someone wants a government position, they should get a dual degree. Yes, it literally "doubles" the number of positions you can compete for. Furthermore, you get multiple "bites at the apple" by being qualified to apply for JD-only programs as well as a range of programs available for students with non-law graduate degrees.
If one would like law firm employment however, the dual degree will not be a fast track to such a job and it may, in certain cases, hamper that possibility. If you are dead set on a government position and go to either of these schools, maybe a dual degree would prove beneficial as Voodoo94 has said. With respect to this OP, it seems that might push the advantage toward UB. However, I still think there are more important factors to consider before the price of the dual degree comes into play (such as overall cost, OP's liking of the school, key areas of employment, etc.).

Voodoo94
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Voodoo94 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:52 am

If one would like law firm employment however, the dual degree will not be a fast track to such a job and it may, in certain cases, hamper that possibility. If you are dead set on a government position and go to either of these schools, maybe a dual degree would prove beneficial as Voodoo94 has said. With respect to this OP, it seems that might push the advantage toward UB. However, I still think there are more important factors to consider before the price of the dual degree comes into play (such as overall cost, OP's liking of the school, key areas of employment, etc.).


Quiver,

If you are coming from a T-14 worldview, that explains a lot. Let me be clear: in this legal economy anyone attending a school below T-14 should assiduously avoid as much student loan debt as possible. It is a millstone.

Right now, I can't think of any justification for attending Hofstra, Albany, Syracuse, St. John's, Brooklyn, NYLS or Pace over Buffalo - unless you receive a scholarship that makes the costs comparable.

You are coming from a totally different perspective Quiver. Most 2011 and 2012 Buffalo and Hofstra will NEVER practice "law" in any traditional sense. I say this as a proud Buffalo alumnus. In this reality, expanding your "toolbox" of skills and employment possibilities while minimizing student loan debt is paramount.

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quiver
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby quiver » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:00 am

Voodoo94 wrote:Quiver,

If you are coming from a T-14 worldview, that explains a lot. Let me be clear: in this legal economy anyone attending a school below T-14 should assiduously avoid as much student loan debt as possible. It is a millstone.

Right now, I can't think of any justification for attending Hofstra, Albany, Syracuse, St. John's, Brooklyn, NYLS or Pace over Buffalo - unless you receive a scholarship that makes the costs comparable.

You are coming from a totally different perspective Quiver. Most 2011 and 2012 Buffalo and Hofstra will NEVER practice "law" in any traditional sense. I say this as a proud Buffalo alumnus. In this reality, expanding your "toolbox" of skills and employment possibilities while minimizing student loan debt is paramount.
I generally agree with this...which is why retaking the LSAT is so crucial for this OP. S/he could get into much better schools with much less debt by adding 8-10 points.

bogart
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby bogart » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:15 pm

You are coming from a totally different perspective Quiver. Most 2011 and 2012 Buffalo and Hofstra will NEVER practice "law" in any traditional sense. I say this as a proud Buffalo alumnus. In this reality, expanding your "toolbox" of skills and employment possibilities while minimizing student loan debt is paramount.[/quote]I generally agree with this...which is why retaking the LSAT is so crucial for this OP. S/he could get into much better schools with much less debt by adding 8-10 points.[/quote]

I disagree with the idea that 8-10 more points will help OP in this circumstance. I believe OP said the score was 156. Even 10 more points would only be a 166, which is still not good enough for t14. OP will likely only get fordham (or thereabouts), and I don't belive that fordham is a better option than UB, given the cost, and fordhams inability to consistently place high numbers in NYC. I would only look at cornel as a step up from UB in OP's specific situation (meaning a preference for upstate or LI).

As for cultural wasteland, I assure that Buffalo is a great city and area. Upstate, for whatever reason gets a bad rap that is not warranted. Lastly, proximity is overrated, and as OP mentioned, just because Hofstra is close to a cool area, does not mean it is in a cool area. Once school starts you will most likely never have time to bridge and tunnel into manhattan.

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Jimbola
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Jimbola » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:10 pm

Nice debate going on here. I will look into the options for dual degrees and what they have to offer.

I am retaking in December. Also been thinking about JAG corps as a way of getting around the whole being in a low ranked school will forever hamper your employment prospects (I've been reading that behemoth of a thread called "Military Law").

Either way. I am leaning more towards Buffalo than overpaying at St. John's, Hofstra, or NYLS. I am over qualified for Touro (if any of you have even heard of it), so I'd have to see if they'd give me full to close to full tuition before considering attending there.

bogart
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby bogart » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:21 pm

Jimbola wrote:Nice debate going on here. I will look into the options for dual degrees and what they have to offer.

I am retaking in December. Also been thinking about JAG corps as a way of getting around the whole being in a low ranked school will forever hamper your employment prospects (I've been reading that behemoth of a thread called "Military Law").

Either way. I am leaning more towards Buffalo than overpaying at St. John's, Hofstra, or NYLS. I am over qualified for Touro (if any of you have even heard of it), so I'd have to see if they'd give me full to close to full tuition before considering attending there.


Also, scholarships at most of these schools come with stipulations. If I recall, during my cycle Hofstra wanted like a 3.3 or something like that to keep the money. This is all dependant on a schools individual curve, but it is something to think about as no one is gauranteed anything once school starts. Buffalo's low tuition on the other hand is a sure thing. Good luck to you OP.

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quiver
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby quiver » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:54 pm

bogart wrote:You are coming from a totally different perspective Quiver. Most 2011 and 2012 Buffalo and Hofstra will NEVER practice "law" in any traditional sense. I say this as a proud Buffalo alumnus. In this reality, expanding your "toolbox" of skills and employment possibilities while minimizing student loan debt is paramount. I generally agree with this...which is why retaking the LSAT is so crucial for this OP. S/he could get into much better schools with much less debt by adding 8-10 points.

I disagree with the idea that 8-10 more points will help OP in this circumstance. I believe OP said the score was 156. Even 10 more points would only be a 166, which is still not good enough for t14. OP will likely only get fordham (or thereabouts), and I don't belive that fordham is a better option than UB, given the cost, and fordhams inability to consistently place high numbers in NYC. I would only look at cornel as a step up from UB in OP's specific situation (meaning a preference for upstate or LI).

As for cultural wasteland, I assure that Buffalo is a great city and area. Upstate, for whatever reason gets a bad rap that is not warranted. Lastly, proximity is overrated, and as OP mentioned, just because Hofstra is close to a cool area, does not mean it is in a cool area. Once school starts you will most likely never have time to bridge and tunnel into manhattan.

I noted the 8-10 point number because it would give OP substantial scholarships for the schools s/he is looking at. Obviously a 166 would not get her/him in the T14, but as Voodoo noted, the key with anything below T14 is to minimize debt and maximize options.

miketyson
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby miketyson » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:49 pm

I was in a kind of similar situation last year: Living at home and going to Albany Law on a scholarship or SUNY Buffalo (also with a scholarship, albeit significantly smaller). I went with Albany mostly because I knew that I would prefer working in Albany over Buffalo. I would definitely advise you to weigh the geographic area you want to practice in more heavily than which school has a better reputation in a certain legal area. Also, make sure you're comfortable living at home. There's no denying that going from living on your own with your friends to moving back in with the folks is a culture shock. I've ultimately been able to handle it because I don't have to worry about cooking my own food, doing laundry, or trying to keep the heat off so I wouldn't have to pay money for bills, but I can't act like it also doesn't suck. Lastly, definitely visit both campuses because that will give you a good feel for where you would be most comfortable at, not just in terms of the "look" of the place, but also the way the staff and students you meet, interact with each other. By no means am I saying that UB lacked this in any way, but just in general, it does help you get the full picture that you can't really get from posting something on a forum and dealing with the peanut gallery.

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Jimbola
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Jimbola » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:10 pm

mike, I've been stuck here at home for over a year now and I hate it. I have no desire to stay on Long Island, I would be doing it to just save money. My only concern is missing NYC, but I don't think it would be so bad living upstate. Just have to get through those ridiculous winters...

bogart
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby bogart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:58 am

Jimbola wrote:mike, I've been stuck here at home for over a year now and I hate it. I have no desire to stay on Long Island, I would be doing it to just save money. My only concern is missing NYC, but I don't think it would be so bad living upstate. Just have to get through those ridiculous winters...


meh...upstate winters are overrated. its not like long island is tropical, in fact the worst winter of my life was spent on long island. Still, upstate (particularily western ny) is different from downstate so there will be some adjusting. I did it, and I love it up here, but it is something you need to take into account in your decision.

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Kess
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Kess » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:08 am

bogart wrote:
Jimbola wrote:mike, I've been stuck here at home for over a year now and I hate it. I have no desire to stay on Long Island, I would be doing it to just save money. My only concern is missing NYC, but I don't think it would be so bad living upstate. Just have to get through those ridiculous winters...


meh...upstate winters are overrated. its not like long island is tropical, in fact the worst winter of my life was spent on long island. Still, upstate (particularily western ny) is different from downstate so there will be some adjusting. I did it, and I love it up here, but it is something you need to take into account in your decision.


+1 The weather shouldn't deter you. I am a Brooklyn girl, but I actually prefer winters in Ithaca and Rochester over the ones here. At least the snow doesn't turn into mush overnight :)

Aqualibrium
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Aqualibrium » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:29 am

Voodoo94 wrote:Why not just pick up a Masters by staying a 4th year and graduate "employment ready" the May after getting your JD (May 2016) - a net "loss" of 3 months. You get a Masters for abut $7,000 extra dollars and double your employment prospects.



:shock:

I read your explanation, but it's hard to swallow the message that if you go to a TT or TTT, you should get a masters to make you more employable

Voodoo94
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Voodoo94 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:55 am

Aqualibrium,

I don't really get your post - or the thought you are trying to convey with your emoticon. As I've said previously, the brutal reality here is that most TT and TTT graduates will never practice "law" in any meaningful or financially sustainable sense. Look around. A newly minted JD has about a 12 month self life. If you don't find a "legal" job within 12 months of graduating law school, the overwhelming odds are that you will never work in a "legal" job that provides a middle class lifestyle or allows you to make a dent in the principal of your student loans.

Given this reality, which is chronicled in numerous media pieces, journal articles and web sites, prospective JD candidates need to make sure they have a plan "B" and a plan "C". To me, a Buffalo law student would be wise to consider a dual degree program because it is cost effective from both a financial and "opportunity cost" perspective. Unlike most law schools, UB truly "walks the walk" when it comes to interdisciplinary education and most of its dual degree programs are pretty seamless. To boot, the second degree at SUNY costs about $7,000 and can be earned only three months after a "plain vanilla " JD graduate gets admitted to the bar.

I stand by everything I've written here. A JD/MPH, JD/MSW or JD/MUP graduate more than doubles their employment prospects - especially with the Federal government. Graduates from these programs have the opportunity to apply for brutally competitive attorney positions (series 0905). They also have the opportunity to apply for specialized positions with their Masters degree credentials (e.g. series 0685 - public health analyst). Additionally, the Masters provides legitimate credibility in applying for "non law" program administration and program analyst positions (e.g. Series 0301 and 0343).

There has been much "sturm und drang" written about the difficulty that JD holders have in competing for non-attorney positions. This is 100% correct - if the candidate only has a JD. Seriously. In this economy, what insight, skill or expertise does a JD alone confer? Nothing. And hiring officials know it. An employer has no evidence that a JD only candidate has any practical or substantive skills with quantitative/qualitative analysis, program evaluation, or deep expertise in an issue area. A Masters confers all of the above. A Masters with a JD is actually viewed favorably by hiring officials in many parts of government - the trick is that the Masters is what gets you in the door, the JD is an added "soft" which can boost your prospects.

This economic and employment reality requires a paradigm shift. While many grads assume the JD should be their "primary" credential, the reality is that their Masters will open the most doors and the JD will provide a supporting assist.

Believe it or not, there is a positive synergy that comes with a JD and an MSW/MPH/MPA/MUP/MPP. You can and do set yourself apart from Masters-only job candidates and a savvy applicant can do this quite effectively. For example, a JD/MPP or JD/MPH holder can really play up journal experience in an interview. I've found that bringing a copy of a journal you edited or worked on is a good "prop." It's a tangible portfolio of your work and shows that you can write, edit and put together a written project - this is huge plus when applying for a position in a place like a Departmental IG Office, the GAO, a Reg. writer position, or in any Federal office that is legally required to produce Congressionally mandated reports (which is most). MPP or MPH students don't have "journals" like law schools do so this works to a law students advantage. Again, the key is getting to the interview stage and a JD alone ain't going to do in it most cases (unless you are lucky enough to get picked up for PMF). The Masters makes you a contender and the JD allows you to showcase other skills that the Masters-only candidates don't have.

In my 5+ years of Federal service, my Masters degree has been the one that "qualified" for all of my interviews and job offers. The JD has been a value add. I directly attribute my Law Review experience to the two job offers I received from GAO in my last year of graduate school (positions I ultimately did not take).

I've written enough here and just wanted to provide a response.

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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby bogart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:30 pm

While the above may be good advice for certain government work, it is not good advice for private practice, or for a prosecutors office. For example, in the OP's case, I believe he (apologies if OP is female) said he wanted to work for the DA's office. In this instance, OP would only be wasting time and money with extra degrees. Instead, OP should go to school in a place that they are comfortable living in for some time. Then OP needs to hustle like crazy to get into that office, or into a private practice which does criminal defense. OP needs to join the local bar, intern/extern at the local DA, and if not local then some other county's DA's office. Lastly, OP needs to make it known to the legal community that he wants a job in that community.

As far as the JD/Masters discussion, I believe that if OP wants to be a lawyer a JD only is suitable and will land him a job as long as grades are decent and some effort is put into the job search.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Aqualibrium » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:59 pm

Voodoo, my emoticon expressed my shock at your advice, and my post conveyed the difficulty I had processing said advice. I suppose it makes sense to get the other degree if you can do it cheap and quick...I've just seen too many people thinking 2+ more years and 40k more is a good idea I suppose.

Voodoo94
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Voodoo94 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:00 pm

While the above may be good advice for certain government work, it is not good advice for private practice, or for a prosecutors office. For example, in the OP's case, I believe he (apologies if OP is female) said he wanted to work for the DA's office. In this instance, OP would only be wasting time and money with extra degrees. Instead, OP should go to school in a place that they are comfortable living in for some time. Then OP needs to hustle like crazy to get into that office, or into a private practice which does criminal defense. OP needs to join the local bar, intern/extern at the local DA, and if not local then some other county's DA's office. Lastly, OP needs to make it known to the legal community that he wants a job in that community.

As far as the JD/Masters discussion, I believe that if OP wants to be a lawyer a JD only is suitable and will land him a job as long as grades are decent and some effort is put into the job search.


Get Real. We are talking about Hofstra and UB here. How many of the 200+ graduates of either school this year will find an elusive job in a County DA's office? Very few and those that do will earn meager salaries that will essentially force them into the private sector after 2-3 years to feed the student loan monster. Dozens will start 1L year with dreams of DA work and a lucky handful will find such positions after graduation.

I think you have a very idealized view of the legal job market today. Furthermore, I think you underestimate the crushing burden that student loans have post graduation.

From a practical standpoint, a UB student setting their sights on a Federal position is a far more realistic and financially sustainable prospect than hoping to win the DA lottery for a job that pays less than $50K a year. The Federal government has real opportunities for growth. I was a GS-14 within 3.5 years of graduation.

Your advice totally sidesteps what the OP should do if he "hustles like crazy" for a local DA position and still winds up empty handed at graduation. If OP follows your advice, he places all his "eggs in one basket" and where would he stand for a plan "B"? How would he recover? What would he do with a transcript hyperfocused on criminal law and 3 years of networking spent solely on the insular world of a single NY county?

You may think that all it takes is a JD, "good grades" and some "effort" to secure a legal job. I'm here to report that there are hundreds of Hofstra and UB Law grads who followed exactly this advice over the past 5 years and have nothing to show for it. They are either out of the law entirely, never found a "legal" job, slaving away doing episodic document/temp gigs, or scraping by an existence in "s*%t law." At the above mentioned schools probably half of the kids on law review didn't even have jobs lined up at graduation this year. In 2006 or 2007, probably half of the law review classes at the aforementioned schools were bound for NYC Big Law. At least the UB kids are mostly living in a low cost area and don't have Hofstra-level level loan debt.

In 2011, it takes a lot more than "grades", a JD and "effort" to find a personally satisfying job that also satisfies the student loan burden. It takes a plan. Banking on hope and the good will of an incestuous county bar is a recipe for disappointment and debt slavery.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby lawyerwannabe » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:30 pm

Voted UB. However, neither place great in NYC. UB places well in Buffalo though and is way cheaper than Hofstra.
Last edited by lawyerwannabe on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

bogart
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby bogart » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:42 pm

I am not sure what federal positions you are talking about but it is not as if they are just handing out fed positions to any JD who decides to earn a master in health law and policy (whatever the fuck such a silly degree even means). While this may have worked out for you, and my congratulations that it did, the masters degree is not a wise decision for law students.

Also, for OP's specific situation, he will be fine with a JD
1. debt load from UB will be low.
2. upstate legal market is better than most others.
3. while salary for a fed position may start out higher, lawyers are like doctors in that they make their money later, meaning when you become a partner, even if its a shitlaw firm.
4. Most people on TLS or anywhere else who talk of no jobs are talking of big law positions in places like nyc,chi,dc, not western ny.
5. usuing the bar and hustling will get you a job. In fact, thats how I got my post grad job.

Voodoo94
Posts: 66
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Voodoo94 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:59 pm

I am not sure what federal positions you are talking about but it is not as if they are just handing out fed positions to any JD who decides to earn a master in health law and policy (whatever the fuck such a silly degree even means). While this may have worked out for you, and my congratulations that it did, the masters degree is not a wise decision for law students.


Bogart,

Did you even bother to read my posts? I took a fair amount of time trying to clearly state my points. I'll try to say them again for the benefit of other readers.

IN THIS JOB MARKET, GOING TO A TT OR TTT WITH THE EXPECTATION OF LANDING A GOVERNMENT "LAW" JOB IS A FOOL'S ERRAND. Got it?

I'm not talking about "law" jobs in the Federal service. I'm talking about other positions where a JD could potentially be an advantage in the hiring process. By the way, the "law" and "non law" jobs pay the same and the opportunities are often greater in the "non law" track. Oh yeah, the work is usually more stimulating/substantive and there is far more opportunity to assume leadership positions or positions of influence.

Is this clear to you? I hope so and I'm sorry my perspective gets you worked up in such a lather that you need to use the f-bomb.

As I said in an earlier post, entry-level attorney jobs (series 0905) at my agency are getting between 1,500 and 2,000 applications for each vacant position. The competition, while keen for "non-law" jobs (e.g. Series 0301, 0343, 0685 and 0671), is nowhere near as fierce and a qualified grad with a qualifying Masters + JD actually has a shot of making the cert list and landing an interview. The JD is seen as a value add for many technically "non-law" positions in regulatory, intergovernmental and legislative affairs shops, but you usually need the Masters to get considered.

In this economy, your advice to double down on a narrow, discrete area of law and "network" in a single county's incestuous legal community is tragically short sighted. Again, what happens to the majority who follow your advice and come up empty handed?

In my class, there were dozens of folks who wanted a DA gig. They did all the right things. In the end, only about 5 of them landed such positions - and this was in a far more favorable employment environment at the state/local level.

While we are all prisoners of the false drama of the "deficit" debate, I would submit the Federal service is a lot more stable environment.

I am trying to provide some ideas to students and prospective students.

BTW, don't blow smoke my way about how great upstate employment prospects are, though they are better than downstate and DC to be sure. I was up at UB last year and a good number of graduating 3Ls on the law review did not have any jobs lined up. BTW, how many in the classes of 2009 and 2010 are slaving away at that long term doc review project outside of Rochester? Last I heard, a lot.

WSJ_Law
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:33 am

Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby WSJ_Law » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:38 pm

try neither hth

User avatar
Jimbola
Posts: 156
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Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Jimbola » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:22 pm

I'd like to shift the focus of this discussion to which dual programs would be helpful, fulfilling, employable, etc.

I would have interest in the JD/MSW (social work) and the JD/MLS (library science). Also the JD/MUP sounds pretty interesting, but not really sure what it entails.

I guess this post is mainly directed at VooDoo since he advocated for the dual degrees the most.


PS: those worried about pronoun usage, I am, in fact, a man.

Voodoo94
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:58 pm

Re: Buffalo (instate) vs. Hofstra (living at home)

Postby Voodoo94 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Jimbola,

All of the dual degrees you mentioned are good. They are established and have a strong track record of producing graduates. The only potential downsides to the JD/MSW, JD/MBA, JD/MLS and JD/MUP could be that if you start as a 1L, you would likely have to spend your second year in a full-time capacity in your other degree program (you would return to the law school for your 3rd and 4th year). This can be problematic as you would be out of sequence with the 1L cohort you started school and bonded with. This is not a "show stopper" however, as two recent Buffalo Law Review editors-in-chief were dual degree students. They made the review and their membership was deferred until after returning from their second year as MBA students.

I would take a good look at the JD/MPH. It's fairly novel still and the program hasn't reached the national saturation point like some other dual degree programs have. With the JD/MPH, you spend your 4th year as a public health student so you spend all three years in law school with your entering cohort. Another advantage, is that you can take the bar after getting your JD (year 3) and become an admitted attorney while finishing up your MPH during your 4th year. Once you get that MPH in May, you can pretty much set off for work immediately.

It is possible to do some of the other degrees without becoming "off cycle" from your 1L cohort. I know of JD/MSW, JD/MBA and JD/MLS grads who did this. They started their first year as a full-time MSW/MBA/MLS student and matriculated to law school during year 2 and graduated with their law school cohort at the end of year four.

I think the JD/MSW and JD/MPH have many advantages and the masters degrees are great fall backs where the JD can help you land a position - especially in the Federal government. You can always go the clinical route to get your foot in the door and transition to an administrative track. The MSW is an in-demand degree right now especially for VA and the Department of Defense. The MSW and MPH are also qualifying degrees for the US Public Health Service (USPHS) - one of the most interesting, diverse and lucrative opportunities in the Federal government. USPHS officers are found in every corner of Government (e.g. HHS (CDC, FDA, ASPR, HRSA, IHS); DOJ; EPA; DHS; USDA; etc.) and many of these positions are cool policy jobs. The compensation can't be beat (in the Federal government) and it offers the same benefits package as the military - 20 year retirement, tax free housing/subsistence allowances, free healthcare, and the new GI Bill (which is transferable to dependents after 10 years).

http://www.usphs.gov

I think the JD/MBA route is way oversaturated right now and that the JD/MLS employment market isn't what it was.

I don't know much about the JD/MUP, but I do know that it is a fairly unique programs and the MUP is an especially strong program at UB.

I hope this helps




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