CLS v NYU

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Curious1
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:45 pm

keg411 wrote:Curious, before you think BigLaw is the be-all-end-all of prestige... then why at YHS is ordinary BigLaw what the "median" people do and not even close to what the very top of the class ends up self-selecting into?

BigLaw is great to get for a number of reasons (I have a SA lined up myself and it's something I wanted), but if you're really a prestige-whore, there are things you probably should want more than BigLaw.


A fair question.

First of all, BigLaw is not objectively good. *I* personally want to do it for very vain and unglorious reasons. I admit it.

Extremely smart YHS grads--I assume--would not want to do BigLaw for several reasons:

1) They're independently wealthy and would rather do something to benefit the world or help with elected office/judgeship at a later time.

2) They're not independently wealthy and would rather do something to benefit the world or help with elected office/judgeship at a later time rather than enriching themselves.

3) They really love academia and want to be professors.

All of these are extremely noble and far far more objectively prestigious than BigLaw. A Supreme Court clerkship, for example, is OBJECTIVELY the best thing you can do out of law school. Dedicating your life to public interest and helping people is far more admirable than slogging away in a sweatshop on Park Ave.

I understand all this, but I still want BigLaw. Prestige is wonderful to have...but money is essential. And if by some chance in hell I make it in BigLaw as a partner, I would definitely not turn down a judgeship or an offer at a non-profit far far down the line, but we're talking like 35 years from now. Right now, as I said to Heavenwood in a PM. My eyes light up at the idea of going to work in a Brooks Brothers suit and tie at some glass and steel skyscraper in Manhattan, working on big projects with smart people, and being able to tell people "Oh, I'm an associate at Cravath" like a blueblood.

I understand it's disgusting and vain and all that...but this is what I want right now. I hope it changes too for the sake of my soul.

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:04 pm

piccolittle wrote:I'm at CLS and pretty much everyone I meet wants to do public interest. I've only met a few people (literally 3) who are unabashedly biglaw focused (myself included), and all the specialized moots and extracurricular programs seem to be geared toward public interest law. We have plenty of kids here who went to NYU undergrad, and no one has complained about the "culture." People are extremely friendly, hard partying, and smart.

Everyone here is also super liberal. I only know two confessed libertarians and no Republicans (there is no Republican club at CLS).

I think the whispers and assumptions about Columbia's culture are actually highly unfair, and I certainly don't think they're worth basing your attendance decision on.

JMHO.

I go to NYU and I know more CLS people that are unabashedly biglaw focused than that. I'm not convinced you understand what unabashedly or biglaw means after a comment like that...

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piccolittle
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby piccolittle » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:21 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:I go to NYU and I know more CLS people that are unabashedly biglaw focused than that. I'm not convinced you understand what unabashedly or biglaw means after a comment like that...


Uhh... I'm not sure what merited the bolded, but okay...

Also, I was just relating my experience. I feel like everyone posts here saying that the only people at CLS are conservative corporate hacks, and from what I've seen, the opposite is generally true. The majority of people I've met are either very keen on public interest, or don't know what they want to do other than "law." Of the *1Ls* I have spoken to, only two of us are committed to biglaw and a certain area of law that is fully private sector. Obviously I'm not disparaging NYU, just trying to save CLS from what I feel is an undeserved reputation.

Maybe lawschoolgrapedme's perspective is different because he/she is a transfer, and the 2Ls are generally more settled on what they want to do (which for many of the undecideds in my class will end up being biglaw), and have already been through EIP. The 2Ls and 3Ls I know all have different goals, but most of them are going to firms, as will most students at NYU.

Again, just my experience, two months in.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:36 pm

Curious1 wrote:Can anyone ACTUALLY talk about exactly how many people were unemployed last year at each school (as of OCI). General arguments are all fine and both schools are great, yes yes, but can we get some numbers?

If no such numbers are available...then that's telling too.

The percentage of EIW/EIP participants who received jobs from the process was almost identical at the two schools last year. Not going to post the numbers here but they're floating around somewhere on this forum.

It's possible the numbers don't tell the whole story. For instance, I would not be surprised if the most selective firms are willing to dig a little deeper in CLS's class. I also would not be surprised if CLS students on average had more offers to choose from. I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption that CLS places a little better in biglaw, despite the fact that the same proportion of people looking for biglaw jobs found something. If this is your sole consideration, then you should probably go to CLS; I think that much is pretty well agreed upon.

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ahduth
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby ahduth » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:18 pm

This is ridiculous. No firm in NYC views CLS or NYU differently. And NYC is the largest legal market in the country. Hell, WLRK name partners are entirely composed of NYU alumni. You'll get big law if you hit median at either school. This is a moot argument.

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ahduth
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby ahduth » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:24 pm

ahduth wrote:This is ridiculous. No firm in NYC views CLS or NYU differently. And NYC is the largest legal market in the country. Hell, WLRK name partners are entirely composed of NYU alumni. You'll get big law if you hit median at either school. This is a moot argument.


Also, where is Batman when you need him?

kaiser
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kaiser » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:29 pm

ahduth wrote:This is ridiculous. No firm in NYC views CLS or NYU differently. And NYC is the largest legal market in the country. Hell, WLRK name partners are entirely composed of NYU alumni. You'll get big law if you hit median at either school. This is a moot argument.


Thats the consensus I get after speaking with so many people from both schools (as I said earlier, I dated a Columbia girl for awhile, so I was there often and heard a lot about EIW, jobs, etc.) Its funny that, among current students, you don't really hear the bickering since both schools are doing so well in NYC big firm hiring. Its clear that pretty much all hiring people see NYU and CLS as the "twin titans" of NYC, and don't waste time splitting hairs between the two. I agree that median from either school would likely line you up for NYC biglaw.

AppsAbound
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby AppsAbound » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:33 pm

piccolittle wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:I go to NYU and I know more CLS people that are unabashedly biglaw focused than that. I'm not convinced you understand what unabashedly or biglaw means after a comment like that...


Uhh... I'm not sure what merited the bolded, but okay...

Also, I was just relating my experience. I feel like everyone posts here saying that the only people at CLS are conservative corporate hacks, and from what I've seen, the opposite is generally true. The majority of people I've met are either very keen on public interest, or don't know what they want to do other than "law." Of the *1Ls* I have spoken to, only two of us are committed to biglaw and a certain area of law that is fully private sector. Obviously I'm not disparaging NYU, just trying to save CLS from what I feel is an undeserved reputation.

Maybe lawschoolgrapedme's perspective is different because he/she is a transfer, and the 2Ls are generally more settled on what they want to do (which for many of the undecideds in my class will end up being biglaw), and have already been through EIP. The 2Ls and 3Ls I know all have different goals, but most of them are going to firms, as will most students at NYU.

Again, just my experience, two months in.


Yeah...it's still 1L. Also at CLS. Last year it seemed to be that there were a ton of people who wanted to do public interest work. But the vast majority of them (among those that I know) aren't going to actively pursue that work right after law school. Most people I know who said they wanted to do public interest work last year, did EIP and are going into Biglaw. Things will change once you get herded into EIP....

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:57 pm

ahduth wrote:
ahduth wrote:This is ridiculous. No firm in NYC views CLS or NYU differently. And NYC is the largest legal market in the country. Hell, WLRK name partners are entirely composed of NYU alumni. You'll get big law if you hit median at either school. This is a moot argument.


Also, where is Batman when you need him?

Assuming you're talking about Bruce Wayne. He only posts anonymously anymore, so he won't be making any appearances here...

(It is really funny that Bruce Wayne tries so hard to post anonymously, I just wish one of the mods was 'The Joker')

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kwais
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:48 pm

I have met people here who are interested in everything under the sun. Some of the PI people at CLS are certainly going to end up in biglaw, but I have met maybe half a dozen who I would bet good money will not. I have never attended any other law school but I can say unequivocally that any reputation CLS has for uptight, competitive, cold, or anything else is flat out ridiculous. Some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And here's the shocker, any community of 1000 people is going to have roughly 1000 personalities. Whoever said choose based on visiting, chatting with people and even neighborhood is credited. Choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly

Curious1
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:50 pm

kwais wrote:I have met people here who are interested in everything under the sun. Some of the PI people at CLS are certainly going to end up in biglaw, but I have met maybe half a dozen who I would bet good money will not. I have never attended any other law school but I can say unequivocally that any reputation CLS has for uptight, competitive, cold, or anything else is flat out ridiculous. Some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And here's the shocker, any community of 1000 people is going to have roughly 1000 personalities. Whoever said choose based on visiting, chatting with people and even neighborhood is credited. Choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly


Doesn't seem to follow? Any law school will have 1000 personalities, which means that all law schools are essentially the same in terms of "personalities". How does employment prospect not play a major role in your decision if the community is diverse in terms of personality?

kaiser
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kaiser » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:51 pm

Curious1 wrote:
kwais wrote:I have met people here who are interested in everything under the sun. Some of the PI people at CLS are certainly going to end up in biglaw, but I have met maybe half a dozen who I would bet good money will not. I have never attended any other law school but I can say unequivocally that any reputation CLS has for uptight, competitive, cold, or anything else is flat out ridiculous. Some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And here's the shocker, any community of 1000 people is going to have roughly 1000 personalities. Whoever said choose based on visiting, chatting with people and even neighborhood is credited. Choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly


Doesn't seem to follow? Any law school will have 1000 personalities, which means that all law schools are essentially the same in terms of "personalities". How does employment prospects not play a role?


He isn't saying that choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly in general, but it is silly in trying to distinguish CLS from NYU since they both dominate NYC big firm hiring to the point that its just splitting hairs (though, please correct me if I am wrong, kwais)

Curious1
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:58 pm

He isn't saying that choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly in general, but it is silly in trying to distinguish CLS from NYU since they both dominate NYC big firm hiring to the point that its just splitting hairs (though, please correct me if I am wrong, kwais)


Oh of course. I think I just heard more bad anecdotal evidence from NYU than CLS this year. Only on TLS can someone even debate this...as I said in another thread, it's like choosing between a Bentley and a Maserati. (HYS would be Rolls-Royces I guess :))

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kwais
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:59 pm

kaiser wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
kwais wrote:I have met people here who are interested in everything under the sun. Some of the PI people at CLS are certainly going to end up in biglaw, but I have met maybe half a dozen who I would bet good money will not. I have never attended any other law school but I can say unequivocally that any reputation CLS has for uptight, competitive, cold, or anything else is flat out ridiculous. Some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And here's the shocker, any community of 1000 people is going to have roughly 1000 personalities. Whoever said choose based on visiting, chatting with people and even neighborhood is credited. Choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly


Doesn't seem to follow? Any law school will have 1000 personalities, which means that all law schools are essentially the same in terms of "personalities". How does employment prospects not play a role?


He isn't saying that choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly in general, but it is silly in trying to distinguish CLS from NYU since they both dominate NYC big firm hiring to the point that its just splitting hairs (though, please correct me if I am wrong, kwais)


thanks Kaiser. and yes, I was not clear. Job prospects are sufficiently similar. Therefore choose based on your actual experience with a visit or $$ or based on personal preferences like neighborhood, not on legends of hippies v. corporate whores.

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:59 pm

Curious1 wrote:
kwais wrote:I have met people here who are interested in everything under the sun. Some of the PI people at CLS are certainly going to end up in biglaw, but I have met maybe half a dozen who I would bet good money will not. I have never attended any other law school but I can say unequivocally that any reputation CLS has for uptight, competitive, cold, or anything else is flat out ridiculous. Some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And here's the shocker, any community of 1000 people is going to have roughly 1000 personalities. Whoever said choose based on visiting, chatting with people and even neighborhood is credited. Choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly


Doesn't seem to follow? Any law school will have 1000 personalities, which means that all law schools are essentially the same in terms of "personalities". How does employment prospect not play a major role in your decision if the community is diverse in terms of personality?

I believe he means choosing between CLS and NYU based on that is silly (correct me if I'm wrong though kwais).

Also, just because each law school has 1000 personalities doesn't mean they have the same 1000 personalities. If you hit it off with people at CLS and just can't stand the people you meet at NYU, you'd be stupid to choose NYU for any career goal over CLS. Plus, kwais mentioned visiting, which would include school itself (meaning facilities, etc.) and neighborhood as well. Those definitely differ between the two schools. I don't think any CLS people can argue they have the better neighborhood (and let's be honest, neither of our facilities are AMAZING, but I think CLS probably wins on that front, though I've actually never been inside a classroom there). Also, I'm not trying to bash on Morningside Heights because just being in Manhattan makes it a better place to be than the majority of law schools.

ETA: I see kwais already responded...

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:01 pm

kwais wrote:
kaiser wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
kwais wrote:I have met people here who are interested in everything under the sun. Some of the PI people at CLS are certainly going to end up in biglaw, but I have met maybe half a dozen who I would bet good money will not. I have never attended any other law school but I can say unequivocally that any reputation CLS has for uptight, competitive, cold, or anything else is flat out ridiculous. Some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And here's the shocker, any community of 1000 people is going to have roughly 1000 personalities. Whoever said choose based on visiting, chatting with people and even neighborhood is credited. Choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly


Doesn't seem to follow? Any law school will have 1000 personalities, which means that all law schools are essentially the same in terms of "personalities". How does employment prospects not play a role?


He isn't saying that choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly in general, but it is silly in trying to distinguish CLS from NYU since they both dominate NYC big firm hiring to the point that its just splitting hairs (though, please correct me if I am wrong, kwais)


thanks Kaiser. and yes, I was not clear. Job prospects are sufficiently similar. Therefore choose based on your actual experience with a visit or $$ or based on personal preferences like neighborhood, not on legends of hippies v. corporate whores.

Exactly. As you will discover, law school is packed full of both hippies and corporate whores, so there's no avoiding either.

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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kaiser » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:04 pm

Curious1 wrote:
He isn't saying that choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly in general, but it is silly in trying to distinguish CLS from NYU since they both dominate NYC big firm hiring to the point that its just splitting hairs (though, please correct me if I am wrong, kwais)


Oh of course. I think I just heard more bad anecdotal evidence from NYU than CLS this year. Only on TLS can someone even debate this...as I said in another thread, it's like choosing between a Bentley and a Maserati. (HYS would be Rolls-Royces I guess :))


I'm sure people noted this, but that would make the distinction pertinent only to those toward the bottom of the class (i.e. is it 70% or 80% who gets big firm jobs this year? I'm sure the kid who is bottom quarter of the class would be very interested to know). But I would like to think that the average kid doesn't go into NYU or CLS thinking that they will be so low in the class. I would think a smart presumption is to ask yourself what would happen at the exact median, since that seems like a fair and conservative assumption going in. And at median from both schools, you are likely set. To the average student considering both schools, its a silly point of discussion, and even sillier coming from students from either school who did well and have jobs.

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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:08 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
kwais wrote:I have met people here who are interested in everything under the sun. Some of the PI people at CLS are certainly going to end up in biglaw, but I have met maybe half a dozen who I would bet good money will not. I have never attended any other law school but I can say unequivocally that any reputation CLS has for uptight, competitive, cold, or anything else is flat out ridiculous. Some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And here's the shocker, any community of 1000 people is going to have roughly 1000 personalities. Whoever said choose based on visiting, chatting with people and even neighborhood is credited. Choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly


Doesn't seem to follow? Any law school will have 1000 personalities, which means that all law schools are essentially the same in terms of "personalities". How does employment prospect not play a major role in your decision if the community is diverse in terms of personality?

I believe he means choosing between CLS and NYU based on that is silly (correct me if I'm wrong though kwais).

Also, just because each law school has 1000 personalities doesn't mean they have the same 1000 personalities. If you hit it off with people at CLS and just can't stand the people you meet at NYU, you'd be stupid to choose NYU for any career goal over CLS. Plus, kwais mentioned visiting, which would include school itself (meaning facilities, etc.) and neighborhood as well. Those definitely differ between the two schools. I don't think any CLS people can argue they have the better neighborhood (and let's be honest, neither of our facilities are AMAZING, but I think CLS probably wins on that front, though I've actually never been inside a classroom there). Also, I'm not trying to bash on Morningside Heights because just being in Manhattan makes it a better place to be than the majority of law schools.

ETA: I see kwais already responded...


Your neighborhood wins hands down on most measures like fun and proximity to relevant parts of the city. however, I will say that going to school in a sleepy area is pretty nice for this three year stint. Also cheaper.

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:09 pm

kwais wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
kwais wrote:I have met people here who are interested in everything under the sun. Some of the PI people at CLS are certainly going to end up in biglaw, but I have met maybe half a dozen who I would bet good money will not. I have never attended any other law school but I can say unequivocally that any reputation CLS has for uptight, competitive, cold, or anything else is flat out ridiculous. Some of the nicest, most down to earth people I've ever met. And here's the shocker, any community of 1000 people is going to have roughly 1000 personalities. Whoever said choose based on visiting, chatting with people and even neighborhood is credited. Choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly


Doesn't seem to follow? Any law school will have 1000 personalities, which means that all law schools are essentially the same in terms of "personalities". How does employment prospect not play a major role in your decision if the community is diverse in terms of personality?

I believe he means choosing between CLS and NYU based on that is silly (correct me if I'm wrong though kwais).

Also, just because each law school has 1000 personalities doesn't mean they have the same 1000 personalities. If you hit it off with people at CLS and just can't stand the people you meet at NYU, you'd be stupid to choose NYU for any career goal over CLS. Plus, kwais mentioned visiting, which would include school itself (meaning facilities, etc.) and neighborhood as well. Those definitely differ between the two schools. I don't think any CLS people can argue they have the better neighborhood (and let's be honest, neither of our facilities are AMAZING, but I think CLS probably wins on that front, though I've actually never been inside a classroom there). Also, I'm not trying to bash on Morningside Heights because just being in Manhattan makes it a better place to be than the majority of law schools.

ETA: I see kwais already responded...


Your neighborhood wins hands down on most measures like fun and proximity to relevant parts of the city. however, I will say that going to school in a sleepy area is pretty nice for this three year stint. Also cheaper.

Definitely a fair statement. It's so expensive here (not that yours is cheap on an absolute scale). And the nightlife can be very tempting when I have to sit in the library and write a memo... which is what I should be doing right now...

Curious1
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:11 pm

Thought there was pretty good nightlife on the upper west side (bit farther south from CLS but still closer than NYU)

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:12 pm

kaiser wrote:
Curious1 wrote:
He isn't saying that choosing based on NYC biglaw prospects is silly in general, but it is silly in trying to distinguish CLS from NYU since they both dominate NYC big firm hiring to the point that its just splitting hairs (though, please correct me if I am wrong, kwais)


Oh of course. I think I just heard more bad anecdotal evidence from NYU than CLS this year. Only on TLS can someone even debate this...as I said in another thread, it's like choosing between a Bentley and a Maserati. (HYS would be Rolls-Royces I guess :))


I'm sure people noted this, but that would make the distinction pertinent only to those toward the bottom of the class (i.e. is it 70% or 80% who gets big firm jobs this year? I'm sure the kid who is bottom quarter of the class would be very interested to know). But I would like to think that the average kid doesn't go into NYU or CLS thinking that they will be so low in the class. I would think a smart presumption is to ask yourself what would happen at the exact median, since that seems like a fair and conservative assumption going in. And at median from both schools, you are likely set. To the average student considering both schools, its a silly point of discussion, and even sillier coming from students from either school who did well and have jobs.

Also, I don't think the difference in job prospects between someone who is bottom 20% vs bottom 30% is based on grades, it's based on interviewing ability/other experience. So in that sense it's also difficult to measure/predict.

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:13 pm

Curious1 wrote:Thought there was pretty good nightlife on the upper west side (bit farther south from CLS but still closer than NYU)

I mean, it's still Manhattan. It's not like there isn't anything to do near CLS. There is just a lot more around NYU.

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kwais
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:13 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:Definitely a fair statement. It's so expensive here (not that yours is cheap on an absolute scale). And the nightlife can be very tempting when I have to sit in the library and write a memo... which is what I should be doing right now...


haha, memo woes here as well. good luck

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kwais
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:15 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Thought there was pretty good nightlife on the upper west side (bit farther south from CLS but still closer than NYU)

I mean, it's still Manhattan. It's not like there isn't anything to do near CLS. There is just a lot more around NYU.


yeah, the columbus/amsterdam 70's-90's area is pretty good, but it is still a cab or train so might as well stay on the train and hit up the village, haha

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:18 pm

kwais wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Definitely a fair statement. It's so expensive here (not that yours is cheap on an absolute scale). And the nightlife can be very tempting when I have to sit in the library and write a memo... which is what I should be doing right now...


haha, memo woes here as well. good luck

You too man.

(My posting frequency has spiked this week, I wonder why)




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