CLS v NYU

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CodyRuegger
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby CodyRuegger » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:25 pm

I actually have a question regarding this debate. Currently, I'm deciding which one apply ED to. My chances at Columbia are probably a bit lower, but not to the extent that I'm scared off from making that choice.

I guess my questions are, academically, what differences, slight or otherwise, do the two schools have? And, how do they stack up against each other for clerkships? (yes, I'm dreaming, but humor me) Of course I have no idea what I want to study right now and am interested in hearing about all the areas of study, but I would say that clinic opportunities, trial advocacy, and constitutional law are currently the most appealing to me. I imagine it comes down to the particular superstars each school has in its faculty roster, but as a 0L I'm poorly equipped to discriminate the data. Cheers.

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:33 pm

CodyRuegger wrote:I actually have a question regarding this debate. Currently, I'm deciding which one apply ED to. My chances at Columbia are probably a bit lower, but not to the extent that I'm scared off from making that choice.

I guess my questions are, academically, what differences, slight or otherwise, do the two schools have? And, how do they stack up against each other for clerkships? (yes, I'm dreaming, but humor me) Of course I have no idea what I want to study right now and am interested in hearing about all the areas of study, but I would say that clinic opportunities, trial advocacy, and constitutional law are currently the most appealing to me. I imagine it comes down to the particular superstars each school has in its faculty roster, but as a 0L I'm poorly equipped to discriminate the data. Cheers.

I think CLS is a little better for clerkships, but I don't really think there is a huge difference. If you're looking in this range, Chicago is stronger for clerkships. As for the others, I'm guessing the differences are minimal. I don't really know many specifics about CLS in that regard though, so I can't accurately make a comparison.

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booboo
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby booboo » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:35 pm

I'd look to LSN to see how ED applicants fare. With that in mind, I wouldn't recommend ED'ing to Columbia if your bent on getting admitted there. ED to Columbia, in my perspective, seems to be more of a function for students who would've been admitted RD but just wanted to explicitly reinforce their goal to attend Columbia. NYU's ED may function more similarly to what ED is usually used for, borderline applicants. I'd love some ... conjecture ... on this.

kaiser
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kaiser » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:35 pm

CodyRuegger wrote:I actually have a question regarding this debate. Currently, I'm deciding which one apply ED to. My chances at Columbia are probably a bit lower, but not to the extent that I'm scared off from making that choice.

I guess my questions are, academically, what differences, slight or otherwise, do the two schools have? And, how do they stack up against each other for clerkships? (yes, I'm dreaming, but humor me) Of course I have no idea what I want to study right now and am interested in hearing about all the areas of study, but I would say that clinic opportunities, trial advocacy, and constitutional law are currently the most appealing to me. I imagine it comes down to the particular superstars each school has in its faculty roster, but as a 0L I'm poorly equipped to discriminate the data. Cheers.


I can't really speak to the CLS side, but NYU's biggest strengths are in tax law and international law. Their international focus is sort of inevitable given the highly eclectic nature of the school, faculty, student body, etc. Everything you learn seems to be through an international lens, and I feel like this provides a good perspective. DO NOT misconstrue this international law focus as some sort of program that would prepare you to defend international human rights violations. Not to say that you cannot enter this area out of NYU (or CLS), but typically the top students at Harvard and Yale are the ones who take up such positions, which are VERY few in number.

Both have very extensive clinical offerings (since both have very large student bodies with a great variety of interests), so I'm sure both have something that would fit your interests (though I would certainly search through the listings to see what is available). As for clerkships, I'm not keen on the numbers right now, so I can't really help with that just yet.

NYU certainly has some superstars including Richard Epstein (whom you will soon learn is one of the preeminent legal scholars of the past few decades), and Ronald Dworkin, whose work specializes in legal philosophy and constitutional law. And that brings me to my final point regarding your stated interests. Just keep in mind that "constitutional law" is a class you take in law school, and not a field of law that you enter into after you graduate. There are no jobs in "constitutional law". So I wouldn't make too big a deal out of which school has a "better" course in this, since its just a 1L core course that everyone takes, and the experience will likely be the same at both places.

spondee
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby spondee » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:52 pm

CodyRuegger wrote:I actually have a question regarding this debate. Currently, I'm deciding which one apply ED to. My chances at Columbia are probably a bit lower, but not to the extent that I'm scared off from making that choice.

I guess my questions are, academically, what differences, slight or otherwise, do the two schools have? And, how do they stack up against each other for clerkships? (yes, I'm dreaming, but humor me) Of course I have no idea what I want to study right now and am interested in hearing about all the areas of study, but I would say that clinic opportunities, trial advocacy, and constitutional law are currently the most appealing to me. I imagine it comes down to the particular superstars each school has in its faculty roster, but as a 0L I'm poorly equipped to discriminate the data. Cheers.


One of Leiter's "rankings" looks at faculty superstars in different research areas. You can look there to get a sense of what some of the big names at each school do with their own research.

Generally, NYU and CLS are both so big, they'll cover all the major things and do so with a fair amount of depth. Since you know that you're interested in con law, maybe look at the class listings at each school to see which courses seem interesting (do the same with clinics). Also think about whether you can narrow it down further. Free Speech, Criminal Procedure, and Sexuality & the Law are all constitutional law classes, but no one's going to go off and practice in all three areas.

CLS probably has a historical edge in clerkships and may have better ties to judges (many of whom may still consider CLS a clearly better school). But NYU completely redesigned its approach to clerkship hiring 2 years ago, and the numbers the last two years were great. On the other hand, neither does as well as their general ranking suggests they should. They're in a bad location to succeed in clerkship hiring: 2d Cir, SDNY and EDNY are easily some of the most desirable clerkships, so lots of competition from YLS, HLS, and, well, everybody. As a 3L, I say don't let this be a deciding factor between the two, except maybe as a tiebreaker. Your grades and recommenders will matter much, much more.
Last edited by spondee on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kwais
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:55 pm

kaiser wrote:
CodyRuegger wrote:I actually have a question regarding this debate. Currently, I'm deciding which one apply ED to. My chances at Columbia are probably a bit lower, but not to the extent that I'm scared off from making that choice.

I guess my questions are, academically, what differences, slight or otherwise, do the two schools have? And, how do they stack up against each other for clerkships? (yes, I'm dreaming, but humor me) Of course I have no idea what I want to study right now and am interested in hearing about all the areas of study, but I would say that clinic opportunities, trial advocacy, and constitutional law are currently the most appealing to me. I imagine it comes down to the particular superstars each school has in its faculty roster, but as a 0L I'm poorly equipped to discriminate the data. Cheers.


I can't really speak to the CLS side, but NYU's biggest strengths are in tax law and international law. Their international focus is sort of inevitable given the highly eclectic nature of the school, faculty, student body, etc. Everything you learn seems to be through an international lens, and I feel like this provides a good perspective. DO NOT misconstrue this international law focus as some sort of program that would prepare you to defend international human rights violations. Not to say that you cannot enter this area out of NYU (or CLS), but typically the top students at Harvard and Yale are the ones who take up such positions, which are VERY few in number.

Both have very extensive clinical offerings (since both have very large student bodies with a great variety of interests), so I'm sure both have something that would fit your interests (though I would certainly search through the listings to see what is available). As for clerkships, I'm not keen on the numbers right now, so I can't really help with that just yet.

NYU certainly has some superstars including Richard Epstein (whom you will soon learn is one of the preeminent legal scholars of the past few decades), and Ronald Dworkin, whose work specializes in legal philosophy and constitutional law. And that brings me to my final point regarding your stated interests. Just keep in mind that "constitutional law" is a class you take in law school, and not a field of law that you enter into after you graduate. There are no jobs in "constitutional law". So I wouldn't make too big a deal out of which school has a "better" course in this, since its just a 1L core course that everyone takes, and the experience will likely be the same at both places.


Epstien is debating Kozinski on halloween. NYUers should come. It's open to public I believe

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:01 am

kwais wrote:
kaiser wrote:
CodyRuegger wrote:I actually have a question regarding this debate. Currently, I'm deciding which one apply ED to. My chances at Columbia are probably a bit lower, but not to the extent that I'm scared off from making that choice.

I guess my questions are, academically, what differences, slight or otherwise, do the two schools have? And, how do they stack up against each other for clerkships? (yes, I'm dreaming, but humor me) Of course I have no idea what I want to study right now and am interested in hearing about all the areas of study, but I would say that clinic opportunities, trial advocacy, and constitutional law are currently the most appealing to me. I imagine it comes down to the particular superstars each school has in its faculty roster, but as a 0L I'm poorly equipped to discriminate the data. Cheers.


I can't really speak to the CLS side, but NYU's biggest strengths are in tax law and international law. Their international focus is sort of inevitable given the highly eclectic nature of the school, faculty, student body, etc. Everything you learn seems to be through an international lens, and I feel like this provides a good perspective. DO NOT misconstrue this international law focus as some sort of program that would prepare you to defend international human rights violations. Not to say that you cannot enter this area out of NYU (or CLS), but typically the top students at Harvard and Yale are the ones who take up such positions, which are VERY few in number.

Both have very extensive clinical offerings (since both have very large student bodies with a great variety of interests), so I'm sure both have something that would fit your interests (though I would certainly search through the listings to see what is available). As for clerkships, I'm not keen on the numbers right now, so I can't really help with that just yet.

NYU certainly has some superstars including Richard Epstein (whom you will soon learn is one of the preeminent legal scholars of the past few decades), and Ronald Dworkin, whose work specializes in legal philosophy and constitutional law. And that brings me to my final point regarding your stated interests. Just keep in mind that "constitutional law" is a class you take in law school, and not a field of law that you enter into after you graduate. There are no jobs in "constitutional law". So I wouldn't make too big a deal out of which school has a "better" course in this, since its just a 1L core course that everyone takes, and the experience will likely be the same at both places.


Epstien is debating Kozinski on halloween. NYUers should come. It's open to public I believe

Where is that?

CodyRuegger
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby CodyRuegger » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:16 am

Thanks for the replies all, I've certainly got a lot to ponder. And yeah, after doing a bit more research on the clerkships, it seems like CLS historically does place a bit better, but by an insignificant margin. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Granted, the sample pool is a single class year, and it ignores graduates who received clerkship offers and turned them down. It does lend some evidence to the notion that NYU is slowly creeping up on CLS in terms of placement, but we'll see if its fancy new clerkship office can continue this trend and create a tangible difference.

Sigh, not any closer to making a decision. Haha.

lawschoolgrapedme
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby lawschoolgrapedme » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:53 pm

CodyRuegger wrote:Thanks for the replies all, I've certainly got a lot to ponder. And yeah, after doing a bit more research on the clerkships, it seems like CLS historically does place a bit better, but by an insignificant margin. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Granted, the sample pool is a single class year, and it ignores graduates who received clerkship offers and turned them down. It does lend some evidence to the notion that NYU is slowly creeping up on CLS in terms of placement, but we'll see if its fancy new clerkship office can continue this trend and create a tangible difference.

Sigh, not any closer to making a decision. Haha.


Is there a scholarship coming from NYU? Otherwise, Ivy or state school?

kaiser
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kaiser » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:56 pm

lawschoolgrapedme wrote:
CodyRuegger wrote:Thanks for the replies all, I've certainly got a lot to ponder. And yeah, after doing a bit more research on the clerkships, it seems like CLS historically does place a bit better, but by an insignificant margin. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Granted, the sample pool is a single class year, and it ignores graduates who received clerkship offers and turned them down. It does lend some evidence to the notion that NYU is slowly creeping up on CLS in terms of placement, but we'll see if its fancy new clerkship office can continue this trend and create a tangible difference.

Sigh, not any closer to making a decision. Haha.


Is there a scholarship coming from NYU? Otherwise, Ivy or state school?


I know you are just trying to have fun with this, but at least try and contribute something useful for students that are actually coming to this thread for some sort of helpful information.

kaiser
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kaiser » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:59 pm

CodyRuegger wrote:Thanks for the replies all, I've certainly got a lot to ponder. And yeah, after doing a bit more research on the clerkships, it seems like CLS historically does place a bit better, but by an insignificant margin. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Granted, the sample pool is a single class year, and it ignores graduates who received clerkship offers and turned them down. It does lend some evidence to the notion that NYU is slowly creeping up on CLS in terms of placement, but we'll see if its fancy new clerkship office can continue this trend and create a tangible difference.

Sigh, not any closer to making a decision. Haha.


Until you see what $$ you get, I'm not sure exactly how you would make this decision. I'd be let $$ be the guiding factor. But you have months to research and visit. No need to make any decisions now, or rank choices before you even know (1) whether they will accept you in the first place, and (2) what scholarship $$ is coming your way.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:01 pm

kaiser wrote:
CodyRuegger wrote:Thanks for the replies all, I've certainly got a lot to ponder. And yeah, after doing a bit more research on the clerkships, it seems like CLS historically does place a bit better, but by an insignificant margin. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Granted, the sample pool is a single class year, and it ignores graduates who received clerkship offers and turned them down. It does lend some evidence to the notion that NYU is slowly creeping up on CLS in terms of placement, but we'll see if its fancy new clerkship office can continue this trend and create a tangible difference.

Sigh, not any closer to making a decision. Haha.


Until you see what $$ you get, I'm not sure exactly how you would make this decision. I'd be let $$ be the guiding factor. But you have months to research and visit. No need to make any decisions now, or rank choices before you even know (1) whether they will accept you in the first place, and (2) what scholarship $$ is coming your way.


Unfortunately he is trying to decide which school to ED to. My philosophy is that if you have to ask, you shouldn't ED.

kaiser
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby kaiser » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:03 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
kaiser wrote:
CodyRuegger wrote:Thanks for the replies all, I've certainly got a lot to ponder. And yeah, after doing a bit more research on the clerkships, it seems like CLS historically does place a bit better, but by an insignificant margin. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Granted, the sample pool is a single class year, and it ignores graduates who received clerkship offers and turned them down. It does lend some evidence to the notion that NYU is slowly creeping up on CLS in terms of placement, but we'll see if its fancy new clerkship office can continue this trend and create a tangible difference.

Sigh, not any closer to making a decision. Haha.


Until you see what $$ you get, I'm not sure exactly how you would make this decision. I'd be let $$ be the guiding factor. But you have months to research and visit. No need to make any decisions now, or rank choices before you even know (1) whether they will accept you in the first place, and (2) what scholarship $$ is coming your way.


Unfortunately he is trying to decide which school to ED to. My philosophy is that if you have to ask, you shouldn't ED.


I completely agree. People throw out ED applications way too often around here. I think people would be better served applying RD to different places, and then negotiating scholarships once they see what awards they get.

chasgoose
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby chasgoose » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:01 am

I chose NYU over CLS and I am gunning for BigLaw...the biggest factor was that CLS gave me nothing and NYU gave me a little bit (also at NYU I could live in BK and cut down on housing costs). I talked to friends from college at each of them. The people at NYU all seemed to enjoy law school, there were more people at CLS that were less than thrilled about their experience (it wasn't a huge sample, maybe 5-10 at each, but still). Also, it must be said that the image the school presents does have an effect on the type of student that goes there. At NYU they make a concerted effort to emphasize their collegial environment to admitted students and they indoctrinate us to be that way once we get here. People are nice and helpful and (although finals haven't started) there hasn't been that crazy cutthroat attitude I expected from law school. I couldn't deal with the constant refrain from everyone at CLS that "the Columbia name opens so many doors" as though that were the only reason to go. CLS seems to attract the more prestige-whorey type than NYU. I will admit that probably CLS is perceived as slightly better than NYU, and I have to say most people I have met here did not get into CLS so I imagine CLS wins big among cross-admits. As far as biglaw goes, however, you will probably only see that difference in the bottom of the class (where I imagine firms go a bit deeper into CLS than NYU). Finally, although this isn't that big of a deal, its still kind of important. CLS is butt ugly. I mean NYU is not AMAZING (at least on the inside) but it doesn't feel as imposing and impersonal as CLS did for me. I'll admit I still sometimes get name envy with CLS compared to NYU, but I deal with it because most people who matter know that the law schools are pretty much equal and I can fall back on undergrad if I really feel the need to impress someone.. :roll:

If PI is really your interest, however, you really should choose NYU over CLS at equal money (once again despite my comments above and below, they are so close that you should go to whichever will be cheapest). If you want to do PI and you get the grades required to get decent PI jobs (despite what some on here might say, PI jobs are generally harder to get than biglaw jobs) NYU will make it happen for you. CLS probably will too, but be prepared to do a lot of the legwork yourself. CLS just doesn't have the same institutional structures and support for PI. They are definitely working to change things, but its clearly still a work in progress, while NYU's PI support structures are solidly established. NYU will just make the whole process of finding a PI job easier because they have a much bigger institutional support system for it.

CodyRuegger
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby CodyRuegger » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:07 am

Yes, NYU definitely would be the place to go for PI. However, since I'm not really dead-set on any particular field of law, I imagine I'll just blanket Furd-UVa/Boalt and attend what I perceive to be the best deal at the time I make my decision. I'm a little worried that if I don't ED I'll get walled at CCN, but since I am so undecided it might be a worthwhile risk to take.

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:11 am

CodyRuegger wrote:Yes, NYU definitely would be the place to go for PI. However, since I'm not really dead-set on any particular field of law, I imagine I'll just blanket Furd-UVa/Boalt and attend what I perceive to be the best deal at the time I make my decision. I'm a little worried that if I don't ED I'll get walled at CCN, but since I am so undecided it might be a worthwhile risk to take.

The next question would be whether you would rather attend either CLS or NYU more than one of those other schools. If that's the case you should ED to one of them because either would be higher on your list. It doesn't really help with choosing between the two, but it does suggest EDing to one of them.

I would still caution against the ED however. I think the option of having $$ somewhere is worth the reduced chances of admission. That's a personal choice though.

Curious1
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby Curious1 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:14 am

Ok this is a stupid question, but.

What exactly IS PI? Are we talking like all nonprofits, or like ACLU stuff, or public defenders...or what?

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birdlaw117
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:18 am

Curious1 wrote:Ok this is a stupid question, but.

What exactly IS PI? Are we talking like all nonprofits, or like ACLU stuff, or public defenders...or what?

All of the above. It's really broad. Different people have different definitions. The common characteristic, however, is that they are low-paying because the organization generally can't afford to shell out serious $$.

timbs4339
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:06 pm

As a CLS 3L, the differences between the two schools are negligible. I'll comment briefly on some of the discussions in this thread.


TLDR: Go wherever you get more $.


- If you are certain you want to do PI, your employment prospects out of law school will depend on your individual networking, internships, and connections with professors as well as grades. You need to seek out the professors who are specialists in your field, and both CLS/NYU are large enough where you can find people who specialize in the big PI or government fields. If you find that NYU has better known employment and labor law profs and you want to do union side labor law, go to NYU because of that, not because of a more general "PI vs. corporate law mindset." You also need to intern during the school year, and CLS/NYU will have the same opportunities at the same internships in NYC. They both have clinics and PI focused externships too. I would say the number of "hardcore" PI people (those who go through law school intending to do PI right out of school or after a clerkship) at CLS is about 5% and NYU has maybe double that %. In the end, it will come down to how you personally approach your career development during law school.

- If you want corporate law, you can't go wrong with either school. Both schools send the vast majority of their students into biglaw firms. Individual firms may have preferences for one or the other, but that info isn't readily available and you won't be foreclosed from a certain "range" of firm based on the school.

Biglaw hiring is largely dependent on grades and work experience. If you are a median student without any work experience, you might be in a worse position than a student who is in the bottom 25% with a few years of good work experience. I would say the number of people at either school who wanted biglaw (for my year, c/o 2012) and didn't get it is almost the same from both schools, and is a non-negligible number (probably around 15-20%).

-The clerkship process is such a crapshoot that I don't think you can make decisions based on clerkship options at the admission stage. So many clerkships right now are going to people with 2-3 years of practice experience. Focus on getting top 10% grades and law review before this even becomes an issue.

-In terms of student culture, I can't think anyone who spends time around non-top law students would be able to tell the difference between an NYU and CLS student. The two schools recruit from the same group of upper-middle class, high GPA, high LSAT students disproportionally drawn from top UGs. There is a confirmation bias that occurs when you hear the stereotypes about the two schools student bodies and then go to ASW subconsciously more sensitive to evidence that supports your preconceived notions about CLS v. NYU cultures.

- Politically CLS is probably 80% liberal/progressive, although the CLS Federalist Society is probably the most well-funded club at school. Personality wise, there are PI people, frat boys, rich kids, nerds, older students who don't spend much time around law school, idk. Mix of personalities. It feels weird to stereotype like that but I don't think you'll find anything different at NYU.

- I chose CLS because they gave me 25K more than NYU. I would say that rule holds true for an amount as low as 5K, unless you really really hate the Village or Morningside. The CLS/NYU "divide," is generally the artificial construction of OCD law students on law forums.

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indigomachine
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby indigomachine » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:02 am

My impression has always kind of been that the career prospects at both schools has been roughly equal. I've met some nice and some awful people at both schools (worked @ CLS for a summer, so maybe had more exposure there...)

That being said, I'm kind of a lean NYU right now because I like the area more... I mean, if all else is equal and I'm going to be hammering away at law school for 3 years, I want to do it where I feel like I am most likely to be happy in the city. No campus @ NYU is a bit of a downer but the Village is also pretty awesome whereas I always found myself a bit bored around the UWS / Morningside... not super-exciting as a student area by comparison.

Just my 0.02. Both are amazing schools, both are gonna put you in crazy debt, so why not just go wherever it seems like you'd be happiest? Either way your career success in PI or BigLaw is going to probably have a lot more to do with how you did at either school and not whether you went to one or the other.

Just my 0.02.

(just as a sidenote: if your biggest life dilemma ends up being "omg, do I go to NYU or CLS?!"... life is going pretty good anyways ;))

bdubs
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Re: CLS v NYU

Postby bdubs » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:43 am

birdlaw117 wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Can anyone ACTUALLY talk about exactly how many people were unemployed last year at each school (as of OCI). General arguments are all fine and both schools are great, yes yes, but can we get some numbers?

If no such numbers are available...then that's telling too.

The thing is, as of OCI isn't really all that helpful (assuming you mean through OCI, because when OCI starts nobody has jobs). OCI numbers really only show job prospects at certain firms. Granted, those are, for the most part, the firms that most students want to work at. That doesn't, however, include PI or Gov't jobs, which NYU has a larger self-selecting group for, and it also doesn't include many secondary markets that people might be targeting. Basically what I'm saying is those numbers are probably not as telling as one might think.

Also, the OCI numbers exist, but students at each school aren't supposed to share them.


This is a bullshit policy. Schools should not be restricting access to employment information to current students only. I can see how sharing GPA cutoffs is not good, but general employment outcomes is a different story.




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