Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

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AriGoldButNicer
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby AriGoldButNicer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:00 pm

ahduth wrote:
AriGoldButNicer wrote:Outside of HYS, there are tiny gaps between each top 10, and it becomes much more about little differences in class rank. I doubt it's CCN as a distinct class in lay prestige and firm perspective outside of regional preference. However, for the sake of boards like these or some more hubris among a hubris crowd, there is a CCN.


Well... for big firm hiring the GPA cut-offs get more severe as you slide down the list. They end up calling back total meatballs from Harvard and passing on quality candidates from Michigan because of it. It's bullshit, but being a lawyer is kind of about manufacturing and re-arranging bullshit.

I started my pt by conceding HYS so this isn't important. Are meatballs from CCN taken over qualified MVP's? Nada.

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rayiner
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby rayiner » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:07 pm

ahduth wrote:
AriGoldButNicer wrote:Outside of HYS, there are tiny gaps between each top 10, and it becomes much more about little differences in class rank. I doubt it's CCN as a distinct class in lay prestige and firm perspective outside of regional preference. However, for the sake of boards like these or some more hubris among a hubris crowd, there is a CCN.


Well... for big firm hiring the GPA cut-offs get more severe as you slide down the list. They end up calling back total meatballs from Harvard and passing on quality candidates from Michigan because of it. It's bullshit, but being a lawyer is kind of about manufacturing and re-arranging bullshit.


It's not some linear thing though. At the NYC V10, I'd say the grouping is: HYS, CCN, P, MVDNCG. Within any given school in that grouping it may be easier or harder to get a job (GULC suffers because of the # of students) but I'd bet the GPA cut-offs are pretty much the same and each school within a group gets a similar number of interview slots adjusted for school size.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:12 pm

AriGoldButNicer wrote:
ahduth wrote:
AriGoldButNicer wrote:Outside of HYS, there are tiny gaps between each top 10, and it becomes much more about little differences in class rank. I doubt it's CCN as a distinct class in lay prestige and firm perspective outside of regional preference. However, for the sake of boards like these or some more hubris among a hubris crowd, there is a CCN.


Well... for big firm hiring the GPA cut-offs get more severe as you slide down the list. They end up calling back total meatballs from Harvard and passing on quality candidates from Michigan because of it. It's bullshit, but being a lawyer is kind of about manufacturing and re-arranging bullshit.

I started my pt by conceding HYS so this isn't important. Are meatballs from CCN taken over qualified MVP's? Nada.


I can say that a lot of top firms dig deeper (sometimes substantially so) into at least some of CCN's classes versus at least some of MVP's classes. Some firms, it doesn't make that much of a difference—top 20% at CCN isn't that much different than top 20% at MVP. But there are firms that will dip down to median (or below) at CCN, but will hardly even look at people not above the top 15-20% mark or so at MVP. I have seen some rather detailed GPA hiring data from a few T10 schools and that backs this up.

edit: I should also add that when I say MVP, I'm essentially meaning the rest of the T12, maybe T13. Bad habit.

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Supreme
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby Supreme » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:19 pm

ITE it's

YS

H
CC
NMVPDNC

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ahduth
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby ahduth » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:18 am

Helmholtz wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:I don't know too much about how to read employment stats, but shouldn't the tendency of PI-track people to choose NYU and biglawl-track people to choose C/C explain at least a little bit of the discrepancy?


NYU's public interest self-selection I think is way overblown. You'll notice that public-interest "self-selection" at NYU started blowing up in numbers when people were having a hard time getting jobs at firms (Class of 2009 at NYU had 10% of people spend their summer in public interest or government. That number for Class of 2011? Nearly 40%).


As I get set to hit up 8am class here, I wanted to get back to disabusing people of this fiction that NYU is somehow the peer of C and C. I'm not sure how self-selection works from a PI standpoint - it's hard to appreciate the depth and commitment of the PILC at NYU until you're actually receiving an email everyday about some variety of program they or one of their cohort are running. They seem to co-chair the 1L summer internship intake process with OCS (that whole process is a bit opaque to me as of yet). They give away a lot of money to people doing PI (beyond the LRAP). Full disclosure - I'm almost certain to go corporate, so I'm kinda on the outside looking in (kinda).

Were other schools hitting 10% placement 5 years ago? I know that Columbia had to eat humble pie and give a whole PI spiel right up front during this past ASW, due to that petition that went around, and their generally poor reputation in the space. Chicago doesn't graduate anyone who goes PI do they?

Hook us up with some more numbers here, so we can get an apples to apples view.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:45 am

ahduth wrote:Were other schools hitting 10% placement 5 years ago? I know that Columbia had to eat humble pie and give a whole PI spiel right up front during this past ASW, due to that petition that went around, and their generally poor reputation in the space. Chicago doesn't graduate anyone who goes PI do they?

Hook us up with some more numbers here, so we can get an apples to apples view.


I don't have the numbers in front of me (will try to find later when I have more time) but when the law firm hiring was booming (I remember specifically the Classes of 2006-2009), NYU's public interest placement was typically in the 6-9% range (maybe 7-9%). I do not remember where Columbia and Chicago were during those times, but I do remember that Penn was in the 4-7% range or so, making them only a couple points lower than NYU—and nobody was touting the public interest bent of Penn. I'm just extremely skeptical about any school quadrupling the number of people going into public interest / government and then the new numbers being used to show how many people at NYU self-select into public interest, when during the good times, people were going like gangbusters to hang their hat at a giant law firm.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:47 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
ahduth wrote:Were other schools hitting 10% placement 5 years ago? I know that Columbia had to eat humble pie and give a whole PI spiel right up front during this past ASW, due to that petition that went around, and their generally poor reputation in the space. Chicago doesn't graduate anyone who goes PI do they?

Hook us up with some more numbers here, so we can get an apples to apples view.


I don't have the numbers in front of me (will try to find later when I have more time) but when the law firm hiring was booming (I remember specifically the Classes of 2006-2009), NYU's public interest placement was typically in the 6-9% range (maybe 7-9%). I do not remember where Columbia and Chicago were during those times, but I do remember that Penn was in the 4-7% range or so, making them only a couple points lower than NYU—and nobody was touting the public interest bent of Penn. I'm just extremely skeptical about any school quadrupling the number of people going into public interest / government and then the new numbers being used to show how many people at NYU self-select into public interest, when during the good times, people were going like gangbusters to hang their hat at a giant law firm.

I'm not claiming this to be the reason, but it is certainly plausible:

$160k is mighty tempting. It would be kind of silly to think that nobody would be persuaded by that salary to go into biglaw instead of PI. ITE that temptation is minimized both by fewer opportunities of it happening and potential layoffs.

Also, I don't know what it's like at other schools, but at NYU we really are bombarded by PI organizations on a daily basis. I've received 4 emails about various events and such in the past 24 hours, and that's pretty standard. Again, I have no idea how that compares with Columbia or Chicago.

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby Flash » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:38 pm

Image
paging BruceWayne.

kaiser
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby kaiser » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:52 pm

Supreme wrote:ITE it's

YS

H
CC
NMVPDNC


In most places, I'd agree this is true, but in NY, NYU is very much on a level above MVP, and much much closer to Columbia in placement. Having so many self-selecting New York people, having a huge alumni network here, etc. all make that a pretty obvious conclusion.

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby run26.2 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:59 pm

Magnificent wrote:its only applies to NYC firms

NYU is not considered any better than the rest of the T14's outside NYC. Several uber-prestigious non-NYC firms recruit only in HYSCC like Williams & Connolly and Susman Godfrey.

I assure you that this is incorrect, unless Williams & Connolly was recruiting HYSCC students during Penn's OCI.

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby lawyerwannabe » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:08 am

run26.2 wrote:
Magnificent wrote:its only applies to NYC firms

NYU is not considered any better than the rest of the T14's outside NYC. Several uber-prestigious non-NYC firms recruit only in HYSCC like Williams & Connolly and Susman Godfrey.

I assure you that this is incorrect, unless Williams & Connolly was recruiting HYSCC students during Penn's OCI.


I assure you people have already pointed out this mistaken comment earlier in this thread.

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ahduth
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby ahduth » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:50 am

lawyerwannabe wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Magnificent wrote:its only applies to NYC firms

NYU is not considered any better than the rest of the T14's outside NYC. Several uber-prestigious non-NYC firms recruit only in HYSCC like Williams & Connolly and Susman Godfrey.

I assure you that this is incorrect, unless Williams & Connolly was recruiting HYSCC students during Penn's OCI.


I assure you people have already pointed out this mistaken comment earlier in this thread.


It goes to the question of why it's not HYSCCP rather than HYSCCN, however.

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby lawyerwannabe » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:17 am

ahduth wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Magnificent wrote:its only applies to NYC firms

NYU is not considered any better than the rest of the T14's outside NYC. Several uber-prestigious non-NYC firms recruit only in HYSCC like Williams & Connolly and Susman Godfrey.

I assure you that this is incorrect, unless Williams & Connolly was recruiting HYSCC students during Penn's OCI.


I assure you people have already pointed out this mistaken comment earlier in this thread.


It goes to the question of why it's not HYSCCP rather than HYSCCN, however.


With your logic, why not HYSCCMVPDCNGT?

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby Renzo » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:49 am

I don't understand how this thread is still going. Rayiner said all there is to say 2 pages ago.

rayiner wrote:NYU is seen as equal to Columbia in NYC, and NYC is where all the jobs are.

Anti-NYU trolling aside, the NYC V10 hire more than a dozen NYU students each. When you're doing 2L OCI you can't beat that advantage.

The NLJ250 data is also not the most useful, especially old NLJ250 data. It doesn't show what schools send people to NYC V10 versus V100 firms, for example. This is particularly relevant because ITE V10's have maintained their hiring, while V100s have cut back dramatically.

Here are NU, a school that has historically done well on the NLJ250 charts, we've got a few firms that are willing to come in and take half a dozen+ students apiece, at least historically: Kirkland, Sidley, Mayer, Latham, Skadden, Winston. These are the bread and butter of a school's 2L placement strategy. It's hard to place 250+ people without firms like these that are willing to take a big chunk of the class. Here at NU, only one of these firms, Kirkland, is hiring anything like they used to pre-ITE. However that's still a great source of security---with Kirkland taking 15 summers, pretty much the entire top 20% of the class that showed an interest in Chicago has a Kirkland offer. However all the other firms have cut back dramatically. Where Latham Chicago used to take more than a dozen summers, they're just taking a few. This has greatly decreased the security of those in the rest of the class.

At CLS and NYU, you still have probably a dozen firms fully prepared to come to OCI hiring double-digit #'s of people just from that school. That gives CLS and NYU students a tremendous amount of security at 2L OCI.

All of these discussions about whether NYU has the same prestige as CLS outside of NYC are moot. In this economy there is no outside of NYC. If you want a job you apply to NYC. If you want to roll the dice and hope that some Chicago/LA/SF/ATL firm that is going to hire like 5 people just happens to like you, or that you'll somehow stand out in the stacks of Harvard resumes at some DC firm, well then NYU might not give you much of a leg up.


And, as an aside the whole "W&C doesn't recruit at NYU" thing is true, and meaningless. Unless you'd rather miss biglaw completely than work in NYC, focusing on one or two non-NYC firms while ignoring the fact that there are orders of magnitude more biglaw jobs in NYC than any other city is flat-out stupid. Would you rather have a 70% chance of biglaw and a 1% chance at W&C, or a 40% chance at biglaw and a 5% chance at W&C?

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby lawyerwannabe » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:06 pm

What schools are you comparing in your percentages? The whole conversation has been about NYU's relative placement compared to MVPDN. If that is the case, the percentages would be like 60% to 50%.

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby Renzo » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:13 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:What schools are you comparing in your percentages? The whole conversation has been about NYU's relative placement compared to MVPDN. If that is the case, the percentages would be like 60% to 50%.


I made those numbers up to illustrate a point. I have no possible way of knowing or calculating what the chances of any single student getting hired by one specified firm are.

But, if you are asking, "is there a difference between the overall placement in biglaw between NYU and MVPDN?" then the answer is yes. For the last two years, OCI success rates (% of participants getting at least one offer) have been almost identical between CLS and NYU, and have been higher than 70%. As Rayiner said, there are tons more biglaw jobs in NYC than anyplace--many times more jobs than anyplace else--and NYU and CLS both get a home field advantage.

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby rayiner » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:28 pm

Renzo wrote:
lawyerwannabe wrote:What schools are you comparing in your percentages? The whole conversation has been about NYU's relative placement compared to MVPDN. If that is the case, the percentages would be like 60% to 50%.


I made those numbers up to illustrate a point. I have no possible way of knowing or calculating what the chances of any single student getting hired by one specified firm are.

But, if you are asking, "is there a difference between the overall placement in biglaw between NYU and MVPDN?" then the answer is yes. For the last two years, OCI success rates (% of participants getting at least one offer) have been almost identical between CLS and NYU, and have been higher than 70%. As Rayiner said, there are tons more biglaw jobs in NYC than anyplace--many times more jobs than anyplace else--and NYU and CLS both get a home field advantage.


I will add that it's not just the overall OCI success rate, but also what types of offers people end up with. At CLS and NYU, most people end up at V50 firms, with a big %-age of that being at V25 firms. At MVDN, lot's of people end up at secondary market firms. In this economy, these firms just aren't as strong as the big NYC firms. What we saw during the recession was a somewhat counter-intuitive but obvious in retrospect flight to prestige. In an uncertain economic climate, a lot of the mid-market work dried up and only the biggest and most obviously lucrative deals went through. The big NYC firms were tapped to handle these biggest deals, as usual.

With the possibility of double-dip, you would rather be at CLS or NYU, where top 1/3 will give you a decent shot at a V10, rather than MVDNC where top 1/3 will probably shut you out of the most stable firms. Here at NU there has been a huge rush to the NYC V10 that didn't exist before. Law review folks who would've taken offers at Sidley or Mayer in the past ended up at S&C, DPW, or STB. Obviously this puts them in the sub-optimal position of having to compete with CLS/NYU folks on their home turf.
Last edited by rayiner on Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby rickfox » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:57 pm

This is why I troll TLS. ty for this analysis. Makes sense now.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:08 pm

kwais wrote:because tight pants are actually a small but important part of rankings

Yep, they really help NYU show off their total package.

GMVarun
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby GMVarun » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:21 am

Notwithstanding the differences in placement between NYU and MVPB, NYU costs 74,704 at sticker and Michigan, for example, costs 67,870 at sticker. That is a difference of 20K.

Then if you account for the fact that if you NYU median numbers, Michigan's (formulaic) financial aid will probably give you at least a 10k/year scholarship. This makes the total difference between the two schools probably close to 50k over 3 years. The debate should be really framed in these terms: is the x% increase in likelihood of getting a job (and perhaps it being in a V50) worth the 50k (at least with respect to Michigan). Depending on what x actually is, for some it likely will be and for others it will not be.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:38 pm

GMVarun wrote:Notwithstanding the differences in placement between NYU and MVPB, NYU costs 74,704 at sticker and Michigan, for example, costs 67,870 at sticker. That is a difference of 20K.

Then if you account for the fact that if you NYU median numbers, Michigan's (formulaic) financial aid will probably give you at least a 10k/year scholarship. This makes the total difference between the two schools probably close to 50k over 3 years. The debate should be really framed in these terms: is the x% increase in likelihood of getting a job (and perhaps it being in a V50) worth the 50k (at least with respect to Michigan). Depending on what x actually is, for some it likely will be and for others it will not be.

The flip side would be is x% decrease worth living in Michigan...

Also, NYU's LRAP is probably worth something too.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:11 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:Also, NYU's LRAP is probably worth something too.


Michigan's LRAP is actually pretty awesome, and in some ways, better than NYU's. Michigan just revamped their LRAP. Its pretty damn generous.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:55 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Also, NYU's LRAP is probably worth something too.


Michigan's LRAP is actually pretty awesome, and in some ways, better than NYU's. Michigan just revamped their LRAP. Its pretty damn generous.

I'll take your word for it. I have no idea. None of these schools have bad LRAPs.

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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby Detrox » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:57 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
GMVarun wrote:Notwithstanding the differences in placement between NYU and MVPB, NYU costs 74,704 at sticker and Michigan, for example, costs 67,870 at sticker. That is a difference of 20K.

Then if you account for the fact that if you NYU median numbers, Michigan's (formulaic) financial aid will probably give you at least a 10k/year scholarship. This makes the total difference between the two schools probably close to 50k over 3 years. The debate should be really framed in these terms: is the x% increase in likelihood of getting a job (and perhaps it being in a V50) worth the 50k (at least with respect to Michigan). Depending on what x actually is, for some it likely will be and for others it will not be.

The flip side would be is x% decrease worth living in Michigan...
Also, NYU's LRAP is probably worth something too.


Obviously I have a huge bias after choosing NYU over Columbia and Michigan, but yea if you're going to go into the details of tuition, you may as well go into examining cost of living (point to M), atmosphere and location (arrogant point to N), etc.

I'm curious as to whether N really doesn't belong in the T6 (or if it should just be T5 what have you), in terms of not only Biglaw placement which is the obsession of this board, but for things like academia, gov't and especially clerkships. I've heard conflicting data especially on the last point as to whether Columbia dominates NYU in clerkships and that also along this metric Chicago could appear a peer to HYS. Thoughts?

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birdlaw117
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Re: Why is it CCN and not NMVPB? (not flame)

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:08 pm

Detrox wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
GMVarun wrote:Notwithstanding the differences in placement between NYU and MVPB, NYU costs 74,704 at sticker and Michigan, for example, costs 67,870 at sticker. That is a difference of 20K.

Then if you account for the fact that if you NYU median numbers, Michigan's (formulaic) financial aid will probably give you at least a 10k/year scholarship. This makes the total difference between the two schools probably close to 50k over 3 years. The debate should be really framed in these terms: is the x% increase in likelihood of getting a job (and perhaps it being in a V50) worth the 50k (at least with respect to Michigan). Depending on what x actually is, for some it likely will be and for others it will not be.

The flip side would be is x% decrease worth living in Michigan...
Also, NYU's LRAP is probably worth something too.


Obviously I have a huge bias after choosing NYU over Columbia and Michigan, but yea if you're going to go into the details of tuition, you may as well go into examining cost of living (point to M), atmosphere and location (arrogant point to N), etc.

I'm curious as to whether N really doesn't belong in the T6 (or if it should just be T5 what have you), in terms of not only Biglaw placement which is the obsession of this board, but for things like academia, gov't and especially clerkships. I've heard conflicting data especially on the last point as to whether Columbia dominates NYU in clerkships and that also along this metric Chicago could appear a peer to HYS. Thoughts?

I think for clerkships Chicago is really good, Columbia is pretty good, and NYU is okay. Kind of the same for academia. But again, on the flip side, for prestigious PI positions NYU is much better than the other two. This is based off of my interpretations of what people say, so if anyone thinks this is inaccurate feel free to mention that.




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