Top Law Schools

writofmySchwanz wrote:I think columbia is going to fall behind UVA

--ImageRemoved--

writofmySchwanz wrote:I think columbia is going to fall behind UVA

False. CCP 4eva.

Because TLS posters need to create meaningless distinctions between schools?

Wholigan wrote:

Magnificent wrote:its only applies to NYC firms

NYU is not considered any better than the rest of the T14's outside NYC. Several uber-prestigious non-NYC firms recruit only in HYSCC like Williams & Connolly and Susman Godfrey.

W&C does not only recruit at HYSCC. There are currently more associates at the firm from both Penn and Michigan than from either of Chicago and Columbia. And there are more from UVA than all of the above schools combined.

Adjusted for class size, Duke beats UVA for number of associates at the firm. It is only CCN in NYC. Everywhere else, it is HYS and the rest of the T13 (except for Chicago; they seem to think it is HYSCCNorthwestern and the rest of the T13).

Did Bruce Wayne get permabanned again, or did I actually beat him into this thread?

Renzo wrote:Did Bruce Wayne get permabanned again, or did I actually beat him into this thread?

I hope not, I'm totally switching teams this cycle. Go Ivy League!

Helmholtz wrote:Yeah, I mean, I personally think there is a gap between CC and N, but also a gap between N and the lower schools.

This seems like a fair assessment to me. I do think the gap between CC and N is probably bigger than N and MVP, at least outside of NYC.

Renzo wrote:Did Bruce Wayne get permabanned again, or did I actually beat him into this thread?

Also, this. But it he may just not be posting in this thread because he can't post anonymously and posting under his name obviously leads to stalkers...

I can only offer the applicant-side rationale: Because numerically, NYU is almost identical to CLS, but ahead of UM--fairly significantly when it comes to LSAT.

Columbia:
The Class of 2014 Profile
25/75 percentile LSAT: 170/175
25/75 percentile UGPA: 3.60/3.82

NYU:
Fall 2011 Entering J.D. Class Profile
75th/%25th% LSAT: 174/170
Undergraduate GPA 75th%/25th%: 3.9/3.6

Michigan:
Class of 2014:
75th%/25th% LSAT: 170/167
Undergraduate GPA 75th%/25th%: 3.87/3.59

HTH.

Yeshia90 wrote:I can only offer the applicant-side rationale: Because numerically, NYU is almost identical to CLS, but ahead of UM--fairly significantly when it comes to LSAT.

Columbia:
The Class of 2014 Profile
25/75 percentile LSAT: 170/175
25/75 percentile UGPA: 3.60/3.82

NYU:
Fall 2011 Entering J.D. Class Profile
75th/%25th% LSAT: 174/170
Undergraduate GPA 75th%/25th%: 3.9/3.6

Michigan:
Class of 2014:
75th%/25th% LSAT: 170/167
Undergraduate GPA 75th%/25th%: 3.87/3.59

HTH.

Everyone knows Michigan is TTT because it's in the Midwest. What about Penn?

Renzo wrote:Did Bruce Wayne get permabanned again, or did I actually beat him into this thread?

He got banned. I actually think I broke him. His craziest comment was deleted.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=168003

shoeshine wrote:

Renzo wrote:Did Bruce Wayne get permabanned again, or did I actually beat him into this thread?

He got banned. I actually think I broke him. His craziest comment was deleted.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=168003

Permabanned I hope.

HeavenWood wrote:

shoeshine wrote:

Renzo wrote:Did Bruce Wayne get permabanned again, or did I actually beat him into this thread?

He got banned. I actually think I broke him. His craziest comment was deleted.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=168003

Permabanned I hope.

Haha, I love how he claims he doesn't have a bone to pick.

ahduth wrote:

Yeshia90 wrote:I can only offer the applicant-side rationale: Because numerically, NYU is almost identical to CLS, but ahead of UM--fairly significantly when it comes to LSAT.

Columbia:
The Class of 2014 Profile
25/75 percentile LSAT: 170/175
25/75 percentile UGPA: 3.60/3.82

NYU:
Fall 2011 Entering J.D. Class Profile
75th/%25th% LSAT: 174/170
Undergraduate GPA 75th%/25th%: 3.9/3.6

Michigan:
Class of 2014:
75th%/25th% LSAT: 170/167
Undergraduate GPA 75th%/25th%: 3.87/3.59

HTH.

Everyone knows Michigan is TTT because it's in the Midwest. What about Penn?

GPA 25th/75th: 3.58/3.93
LSAT 25th/75th: 166/171

Yeshia90 wrote:

ahduth wrote:

Yeshia90 wrote:I can only offer the applicant-side rationale: Because numerically, NYU is almost identical to CLS, but ahead of UM--fairly significantly when it comes to LSAT.

Columbia:
The Class of 2014 Profile
25/75 percentile LSAT: 170/175
25/75 percentile UGPA: 3.60/3.82

NYU:
Fall 2011 Entering J.D. Class Profile
75th/%25th% LSAT: 174/170
Undergraduate GPA 75th%/25th%: 3.9/3.6

Michigan:
Class of 2014:
75th%/25th% LSAT: 170/167
Undergraduate GPA 75th%/25th%: 3.87/3.59

HTH.

Everyone knows Michigan is TTT because it's in the Midwest. What about Penn?

GPA 25th/75th: 3.58/3.93
LSAT 25th/75th: 166/171

Basing school choice on LSAT/GPA medians is ridiculous. Georgetown's LSAT median is on par with VPDN (not to mention Stanford). That doesn't change their notoriously worse employment placement statistics.

If you can get into NYU sticker, you can probably wrangle a half ride at one of MVP. All things being equal, NYU is the better school, but it definitely isn't 75k better.

Outside of HYS, there are tiny gaps between each top 10, and it becomes much more about little differences in class rank. I doubt it's CCN as a distinct class in lay prestige and firm perspective outside of regional preference. However, for the sake of boards like these or some more hubris among a hubris crowd, there is a CCN.

1. Location
2. Berkeley shouldn't be ranked in the top 10

AriGoldButNicer wrote:Outside of HYS, there are tiny gaps between each top 10, and it becomes much more about little differences in class rank. I doubt it's CCN as a distinct class in lay prestige and firm perspective outside of regional preference. However, for the sake of boards like these or some more hubris among a hubris crowd, there is a CCN.

Well... for big firm hiring the GPA cut-offs get more severe as you slide down the list. They end up calling back total meatballs from Harvard and passing on quality candidates from Michigan because of it. It's bullshit, but being a lawyer is kind of about manufacturing and re-arranging bullshit.

ahduth wrote:

AriGoldButNicer wrote:Outside of HYS, there are tiny gaps between each top 10, and it becomes much more about little differences in class rank. I doubt it's CCN as a distinct class in lay prestige and firm perspective outside of regional preference. However, for the sake of boards like these or some more hubris among a hubris crowd, there is a CCN.

Well... for big firm hiring the GPA cut-offs get more severe as you slide down the list. They end up calling back total meatballs from Harvard and passing on quality candidates from Michigan because of it. It's bullshit, but being a lawyer is kind of about manufacturing and re-arranging bullshit.

+1

I could not agree with a post more.

i dunno, ryan. why is the sky grey? why is the grass grey? why is a rainbow grey, grey, grey, grey and infra-grey?

- Wilfred

NYU is seen as equal to Columbia in NYC, and NYC is where all the jobs are.

Anti-NYU trolling aside, the NYC V10 hire more than a dozen NYU students each. When you're doing 2L OCI you can't beat that advantage.

The NLJ250 data is also not the most useful, especially old NLJ250 data. It doesn't show what schools send people to NYC V10 versus V100 firms, for example. This is particularly relevant because ITE V10's have maintained their hiring, while V100s have cut back dramatically.

Here are NU, a school that has historically done well on the NLJ250 charts, we've got a few firms that are willing to come in and take half a dozen+ students apiece, at least historically: Kirkland, Sidley, Mayer, Latham, Skadden, Winston. These are the bread and butter of a school's 2L placement strategy. It's hard to place 250+ people without firms like these that are willing to take a big chunk of the class. Here at NU, only one of these firms, Kirkland, is hiring anything like they used to pre-ITE. However that's still a great source of security---with Kirkland taking 15 summers, pretty much the entire top 20% of the class that showed an interest in Chicago has a Kirkland offer. However all the other firms have cut back dramatically. Where Latham Chicago used to take more than a dozen summers, they're just taking a few. This has greatly decreased the security of those in the rest of the class.

At CLS and NYU, you still have probably a dozen firms fully prepared to come to OCI hiring double-digit #'s of people just from that school. That gives CLS and NYU students a tremendous amount of security at 2L OCI.

All of these discussions about whether NYU has the same prestige as CLS outside of NYC are moot. In this economy there is no outside of NYC. If you want a job you apply to NYC. If you want to roll the dice and hope that some Chicago/LA/SF/ATL firm that is going to hire like 5 people just happens to like you, or that you'll somehow stand out in the stacks of Harvard resumes at some DC firm, well then NYU might not give you much of a leg up.

Just a couple points to add.

First, for better or worse, prestige is self-reinforcing, and NYU has simply been ranked highly for a long time. We're reaching a point where senior associates and young Partners At Law firms went to school when NYU was alternating with CLS for #4 in the USNWR rankings (e.g., those who graduated in the last 10 years). I think people doing hiring frequently do see it as CLS's equal already, but I think they will increasingly view the schools that way over the coming years. After all, what are the components of "quality" here, if we're trying to rank law schools? It seems to me that it's 1) admissions selectivity/quality of student body; 2) faculty quality/quality of education; and 3) job placement. But job placement is mainly a matter of people's perceptions of the first two criteria, and people know NYU is comparable to CLS, and will increasingly know it as the senior ranks of firms become filled with people who went to school in the USNWR obsession era. (This is how I see it working with respect to large firm hiring, at least.)

Second, I truly believe that NYU appeals to public interest students in a way that CC simply don't. If you want to be a public defender or work in family law or whatever else and you can't get into HYS, NYU is the natural place to go. We can debate the impact this has on the NLJ statistics ad nauseum; my point is that it is a competitive advantage that NYU has over most of the T14. I do see Columbia and Chicago as being more similar to each other than to NYU – they both seem to have institutional focuses on teaching THE LAW as such, see themselves as stewards of a lofty intellectual tradition in legal thought, etc. NYU is more focused on addressing concrete issues, the law as a means to an end. As a consequence, it draws cross-admits from CC who find the NYU philosophy more appealing.

I actually do endorse thinking of CC and N as being in different tiers, but not in a way that diminishes NYU; I think they are just different and have different things to offer. (This is true to varying extents among all the top schools, by the way; it's absurd to say #5 is better than #6 or #6 is better than #7 if they're all thousands of miles away from each other and attract different faculties, students, etc.)

Just my two cents.

Wholigan wrote:

Magnificent wrote:its only applies to NYC firms

NYU is not considered any better than the rest of the T14's outside NYC. Several uber-prestigious non-NYC firms recruit only in HYSCC like Williams & Connolly and Susman Godfrey.

W&C does not only recruit at HYSCC. There are currently more associates at the firm from both Penn and Michigan than from either of Chicago and Columbia. And there are more from UVA than all of the above schools combined.

my bad

I meant in the context of T6 schools. I was only pointing out that NYU was not included in that group.

Magnificent wrote:

Wholigan wrote:

Magnificent wrote:its only applies to NYC firms

NYU is not considered any better than the rest of the T14's outside NYC. Several uber-prestigious non-NYC firms recruit only in HYSCC like Williams & Connolly and Susman Godfrey.

W&C does not only recruit at HYSCC. There are currently more associates at the firm from both Penn and Michigan than from either of Chicago and Columbia. And there are more from UVA than all of the above schools combined.

my bad

I meant in the context of T6 schools. I was only pointing out that NYU was not included in that group.

I believe they go to Chicago and not Northwestern, as well. I remember seeing that and thinking they only felt like doing one school per city, or had some super-secret means of recruiting from NYU/NW while they were in town.

dixiecupdrinking wrote:I believe they go to Chicago and not Northwestern, as well. I remember seeing that and thinking they only felt like doing one school per city, or had some super-secret means of recruiting from NYU/NW while they were in town.

They do 3L OCI here, or at least they signed up for it this year.

Re: NYU's ranking---it's been solidly T6 since 1993. In other words folks who started as first-year associates when NYU broke into the T6 are mid-level partners in their 40's now. It was also ranked ahead of U Chicago, mostly in 5th but sometimes in 4th place, for 11 years, between 1999 and 2009, inclusive. There are junior partners now who were applying to law school when NYU was ranked above U Chicago.