UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

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PancakeMonster
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UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby PancakeMonster » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:21 am

Hey all,

ASU is ranked #40, UVA #9. Which one is a better school to land a job in the Phoenix law market? I'm from AZ, went to ASU undergrad, and want to remain or go back to the area after graduation.

Thanks

paulinaporizkova
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:00 am

oh boy.

Citizen Genet
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Citizen Genet » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:56 am


hangtransferloose
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby hangtransferloose » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:56 pm

UVA hands down, but you will still need to be in the top 25%. At ASU you will need to be in the top 10 (people, not percent) of your class to have a chance at landing a good PHX gig.

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Glock
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Glock » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:23 pm

Do you have specific law firms you are targeting? Call their hiring partner and ask. There are several firms that are moderately suspicious of out of state schools.

At ASU you'll need to be in the top 10% to be competitive. One above poster said top 10 people, and I do not think that is completely true. I've met several top 10%, 9%, 8% type ASU people that received a top offer in the last couple years. Obviously the higher the better, but top 10 places is not a real cutoff.

At UVA you'll need to be in the top 1/3 or top 1/4 to be competitive, which is no small task.

You'll also have to weigh debt you'll be taking on. Totally free with a stipend at ASU might attractive compared to sticker at UVA. Still, UVA has more opportunities even if you are outside of the top 1/4.

As long as you have bona fide sellable Phoenix ties, I'd go to UVA.

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Pato_09
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Pato_09 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:32 pm

Even median at UVA, and strong ties in AZ, you have a good chance of a big firm offer.

Go to UVA.

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Glock
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Glock » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:42 pm

Pato_09 wrote:Even median at UVA, and strong ties in AZ, you have a good chance of a big firm offer.

Go to UVA.



Median at UVA is basically too low for Snell & Wilmer, Lewis & Roca, and Fennemore Craig. Those three firms hire half of the market paying SA positions in Phoenix. UVA median would have their best shot at FC of those three, but it isn't a very good shot. Various V100 satellite offices might be game, but they only hire 1-2 people each (and sometimes none).

Phoenix is very strange/hard to get into. I guess it depends on what you mean by "good." If "good" means less than 50%... then I guess so.

ETA: UVA is still probably the better bet on balance. You have more options even if Phoenix does not work out.

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Pato_09
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Pato_09 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:02 pm

Median at UVA is basically too low for Snell & Wilmer, Lewis & Roca, and Fennemore Craig.

If you are median at UVA, you have a good shot at V50+ firm in NYC. Why would it be different at AZ? There way more competition in NY than AZ.

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Glock
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Glock » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:12 pm

Pato_09 wrote:
If you are median at UVA, you have a good shot at V50+ firm in NYC. Why would it be different at AZ? There way more competition in NY than AZ.



That is a great question. This problem comes up when people apply NYC rules to backwater markets like Phoenix. If you check out the Phoenix thread, most out of state applicants think that it is harder to crack than NYC. The grade cut-offs vary from firm to firm, but I've never even heard of a Phoenix market-paying firm accepting someone from median outside of YHS.

Phoenix has a tiny number of SA positions. Firms get to be way more picky, and the fact is that most would prefer a top 5-10% ASU/UA kid over a median from UVA. On the other hand, top 1/4 to 1/3 T14 is more in the game.

I went to ASU/UA for undergrad and met a lot of pre-law people who went T14. Most of them are trying to come back now. I know top 1/4 CCN people having trouble getting back into Phoenix. I have a friend slightly above median at M who got 0 Phoenix screeners, and he has a good resume.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:19 pm

Glock wrote:
Pato_09 wrote:
If you are median at UVA, you have a good shot at V50+ firm in NYC. Why would it be different at AZ? There way more competition in NY than AZ.



That is a great question. This problem comes up when people apply NYC rules to backwater markets like Phoenix. If you check out the Phoenix thread, most out of state applicants think that it is harder to crack than NYC. The grade cut-offs vary from firm to firm, but I've never even heard of a Phoenix market-paying firm accepting someone from median outside of YHS.

Phoenix has a tiny number of SA positions. Firms get to be way more picky, and the fact is that most would prefer a top 5-10% ASU/UA kid over a median from UVA. On the other hand, top 1/4 to 1/3 T14 is more in the game.

I went to ASU/UA for undergrad and met a lot of pre-law people who went T14. Most of them are trying to come back now. I know top 1/4 CCN people having trouble getting back into Phoenix. I have a friend slightly above median at M who got 0 Phoenix screeners, and he has a good resume.



LOL at calling one of the largest cities in the U.S "backwater"; only someone from NYC or California would say something so arrogant/ignorant. But this post has the right idea in terms of secondary markets being more grade selective than NYC. Secondary markets are so used to seeing nothing but magna/summa cum laude and law review + competitive moot court from local schools that they just have a very hard time swallowing B's and B+s from a top school unless it's HYS (and in which case they don't see letter grades anyway). Plus they have much smaller summer classes.

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Glock
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Glock » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:

LOL at calling one of the largest cities in the U.S "backwater"; only someone from NYC or California would say something so arrogant/ignorant. But this post has the right idea in terms of secondary markets being more grade selective than NYC. Secondary markets are so used to seeing nothing but magna/summa cum laude and law review + competitive moot court from local schools that they just have a very hard time swallowing B's and B+s from a top school unless it's HYS (and in which case they don't see letter grades anyway). Plus they have much smaller summer classes.



1. Phoenix is a legal backwater. Deal with it.
2. I'm an AZ native.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:25 pm

Yeah the above posters are right on target. Secondary markets are extremely selective due to the lack of spots. T14 students do not clean up the way that you think that they would; T14s generally get big law in NYC, DC, IL, and CA. Outside of those markets, things become more dicey.

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Pato_09
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Pato_09 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:39 pm

What about coming back to a secondary market, after working in a big market like NY/DC? Are secondary markets still as selective?

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:41 pm

Glock wrote:The grade cut-offs vary from firm to firm, but I've never even heard of a Phoenix market-paying firm accepting someone from median outside of YHS.

Glock wrote: I have a friend slightly above median at M who got 0 Phoenix screeners, and he has a good resume.

FWIW, I have a friend in my class (2012) with similar stats at M who received a market-paying offer in Phoenix last year.

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Glock
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Glock » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:23 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Glock wrote:The grade cut-offs vary from firm to firm, but I've never even heard of a Phoenix market-paying firm accepting someone from median outside of YHS.

Glock wrote: I have a friend slightly above median at M who got 0 Phoenix screeners, and he has a good resume.

FWIW, I have a friend in my class (2012) with similar stats at M who received a market-paying offer in Phoenix last year.



The fact that there is significant variation says a lot.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:50 am

Glock wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:

LOL at calling one of the largest cities in the U.S "backwater"; only someone from NYC or California would say something so arrogant/ignorant. But this post has the right idea in terms of secondary markets being more grade selective than NYC. Secondary markets are so used to seeing nothing but magna/summa cum laude and law review + competitive moot court from local schools that they just have a very hard time swallowing B's and B+s from a top school unless it's HYS (and in which case they don't see letter grades anyway). Plus they have much smaller summer classes.



1. Phoenix is a legal backwater. Deal with it.
2. I'm an AZ native.



If you can't understand the difference between a city being "backwater"--what you said--and it not having a lot of big law firms then I can't help you. Miami is one of the largest metro areas in the country, so is Philly, but they don't have many big law firms. That doesn't mean they are "backwater".

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Glock
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Glock » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:31 am

BruceWayne wrote:[


If you can't understand the difference between a city being "backwater"--what you said--and it not having a lot of big law firms then I can't help you. Miami is one of the largest metro areas in the country, so is Philly, but they don't have many big law firms. That doesn't mean they are "backwater".



I said the Phoenix market was backwater. It is.

Backwater=
a : an isolated or backward place or condition b : an unpopular or unimportant field (as of study or business)


The highest ranked Vault firm with any real presence in Phoenix is fucking DLA Piper, and they just moved in. All of the best firms in Phoenix are old local firms that have some fine lawyers, but they are isolated from the rest of the country. Before the mid 80's there were virtually no national firms in Phoenix, but then some V100s moved in.

It's not like lawyers in AZ are bad or something, they are just isolated and home grown. Osborn Maledon, Snell, Lewis & Roca, and Fennemore and basically the best firms in town and they like to hire local, or mostly local.

Philly and Miami are both more legally relevant than Phoenix, but are also completely secondary markets compared to NY, SF, CHI, LA, DC, ATL. Large metro area do not equal legal vibrancy. Even then, Phoenix METRO is only in the 15-20 range on population. Phoenix itself is just large.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:37 am

Glock wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:[


If you can't understand the difference between a city being "backwater"--what you said--and it not having a lot of big law firms then I can't help you. Miami is one of the largest metro areas in the country, so is Philly, but they don't have many big law firms. That doesn't mean they are "backwater".



I said the Phoenix market was backwater. It is.

Backwater=
a : an isolated or backward place or condition b : an unpopular or unimportant field (as of study or business)


The highest ranked Vault firm with any real presence in Phoenix is fucking DLA Piper, and they just moved in. All of the best firms in Phoenix are old local firms that have some fine lawyers, but they are isolated from the rest of the country. Before the mid 80's there were virtually no national firms in Phoenix, but then some V100s moved in.

It's not like lawyers in AZ are bad or something, they are just isolated and home grown. Osborn Maledon, Snell, Lewis & Roca, and Fennemore and basically the best firms in town and they like to hire local, or mostly local.

Philly and Miami are both more legally relevant than Phoenix, but are also completely secondary markets compared to NY, SF, CHI, LA, DC, ATL. Large metro area do not equal legal vibrancy. Even then, Phoenix METRO is only in the 15-20 range on population. Phoenix itself is just large.



What I said went entirely over your head. I don't care about the Phoneix legal market being small. You started off by saying that the city of Phoenix was backwater, based on it having a small number of big law firms. That's ridiculous. All this stuff about "legal markets" is irrelevant. It's like people on here don't have lives outside of law firm rankings, TLS, and big law. Who defines a city by it's legal business?

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Glock
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Glock » Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:16 am

BruceWayne wrote:
What I said went entirely over your head. I don't care about the Phoneix legal market being small. You started off by saying that the city of Phoenix was backwater, based on it having a small number of big law firms. That's ridiculous. All this stuff about "legal markets" is irrelevant. It's like people on here don't have lives outside of law firm rankings, TLS, and big law. Who defines a city by it's legal business?



You are incorrect. I did NOT say the city of Phoenix was backwater. I stated:

This problem comes up when people apply NYC rules to backwater markets like Phoenix.


When I stated "backwater market," what kind of market do you think I was referencing? The statement is indistinguishible from "Phoenix is a backwater legal market." It has nothing to do with the city, which itself isn't even in the top 15 metro areas by population.

When we are talking about LEGAL JOB PROSPECTS, defining a city by it's legal market is a pretty good idea. Phoenix, generally, is a legal backwater. The NYC norms for class rank and top schools and that BS do not apply there. In fact, in many ways it is harder to get a job in Phoenix than NYC, and top schools are not as respected as in major markets.

mrloblaw
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby mrloblaw » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:32 am

BruceWayne wrote: Who defines a city by it's legal business?


A: Lawyers.

hangtransferloose
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby hangtransferloose » Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:56 pm

If you have strong AZ ties a t14 school with good grades is much better than UA/ASU with great grades. Achieving great grades at any law school is no easy task. t14 will give you great options in AZ with good grades, and some options elsewhere if AZ falls through. If you have good, not great, grades at UA/ASU you will likely be unemployed in AZ and beyond.

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Glock
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby Glock » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:20 pm

hangtransferloose wrote:If you have strong AZ ties a t14 school with good grades is much better than UA/ASU with great grades. Achieving great grades at any law school is no easy task. t14 will give you great options in AZ with good grades, and some options elsewhere if AZ falls through. If you have good, not great, grades at UA/ASU you will likely be unemployed in AZ and beyond.



Much better? Not really. The rest of this is credited.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:49 pm

Glock wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Glock wrote:The grade cut-offs vary from firm to firm, but I've never even heard of a Phoenix market-paying firm accepting someone from median outside of YHS.

Glock wrote: I have a friend slightly above median at M who got 0 Phoenix screeners, and he has a good resume.

FWIW, I have a friend in my class (2012) with similar stats at M who received a market-paying offer in Phoenix last year.



The fact that there is significant variation says a lot.

Sure, but that can be said about any market. My point is that market-paying firms do in fact give offers to slightly-above median people outside of YHS, and that median people at a school like Michigan are certainly not out of the running for Phoenix biglaw just because you have one friend who didn't get screeners.

Also, Michigan doesn't pre-screen for EIW, so I'm unsure how this is even a reflection on anything other than your friend's bidding strategy. If he wanted Phoenix firm screeners, he absolutely could have picked them up at EIW. Perhaps your friend treated Phoenix like a back-up, and firms were able to see he was more interested in another market.

hangtransferloose
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby hangtransferloose » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:21 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Glock wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:Also, Michigan doesn't pre-screen for EIW, so I'm unsure how this is even a reflection on anything other than your friend's bidding strategy. If he wanted Phoenix firm screeners, he absolutely could have picked them up at EIW. Perhaps your friend treated Phoenix like a back-up, and firms were able to see he was more interested in another market.


Fennemore, Snell, and L&R did not come to EIW at Michigan. In fact, most of the "large" AZ firms did not. I assume this is true of most t14 oci/eiw/whatever. If a t14 student is seeking a job in AZ he/she will have to do the vast majority of legwork on their own (networking, mass mailing, contacting alumni, etc).

Screeners for t14 students seem to consist of either interviewing with the firm over the summer in AZ, or via phone call once the student has gone back to school.

I do agree that AZ firms appear to be somewhat suspect of t14 students, even with AZ ties. However, they shouldn't be. No one should fault a student for attending a t14 school and not UA/ASU even if their intention is to practice in AZ.

Overall, I think a t14 student with goods grades definitely has a leg up on an UA/ASU student with great grades. However, t14 students tend to be more bitter when they don't receive offers than UA/ASU students. The fact of the matter is that there are just not enough SA spots available in Phoenix to accommodate all of the t14 students with good grades that seek employment in AZ. AZ firms have to save some spots for UA/ASU students otherwise the reps/connections with the schools would certainly take a hit.

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA vs ASU for Phoenix law market

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:29 pm

Glock wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:You started off by saying that the city of Phoenix was backwater, based on it having a small number of big law firms.

You are incorrect. I did NOT say the city of Phoenix was backwater. I stated:

This problem comes up when people apply NYC rules to backwater markets like Phoenix.

Pwned.




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