Underrated Law Schools

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Rowinguy2009
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Rowinguy2009 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:50 pm

Columbia is underrated by people who think Chicago is better than Columbia.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:45 pm

soj wrote:This is embarrassing. Chicago's one of my top choices, but even I roll my eyes at this kind of rationalization.



+1

HeavenWood
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:05 pm

cmckid wrote:Vandy- If you put it in NYC, it'd be a top 10 LS for sure. Its because so many graduates take top jobs in the South at non-NLJ 250 firms that it is underrated. Cornell is over-rated, imo. As a school, its weak, but because of its placement in New York it feeds into the big firms there.

Wishful thinking is wishful? Not that Vandy is a bad school, but come on...

As far as truly underrated schools go, my vote's for Temple. Cheap in-state tuition makes its placement rate quite decent on a per-dollar basis.

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Supreme
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Supreme » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:47 pm

Yale and Stanford. It's not so much them being underrated as much as it is Harvard being incredibly overrated. ITE Harvard is much much much much much closer to CCN than it is to YS.

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ahduth
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby ahduth » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:34 am

TaipeiMort wrote:Yeah. There is a rant out there from autoadmit I can post.

Seriously though, you cant argue against empirical evidence.

I just quoted you three statistics that show that Chicago is objectively better than at least Harvard, and probably Stanford.

Explain to me why Chicago outplaces Harvard and Stanford in Biglaw, Supreme Court Clerkships, and as law firm partners.

I know that because a school lacks lay prestige and has nerdy students that it is easy to make fun of it, but it is probably owning your school.


Here's Harvard: http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

Where's Chicago?

sparty99
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby sparty99 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:54 am

Ya'll need to get over yourselves. Chicago is a fantastic school and so is Harvard, Stanford. This is the dumbest argument ever based on opinions and your pretentiousness.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:58 am

ahduth wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:Yeah. There is a rant out there from autoadmit I can post.

Seriously though, you cant argue against empirical evidence.

I just quoted you three statistics that show that Chicago is objectively better than at least Harvard, and probably Stanford.

Explain to me why Chicago outplaces Harvard and Stanford in Biglaw, Supreme Court Clerkships, and as law firm partners.

I know that because a school lacks lay prestige and has nerdy students that it is easy to make fun of it, but it is probably owning your school.


Here's Harvard: http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

Where's Chicago?


UChicago: 16 total attorneys
Harvard: 47 total attorneys
UChicago: 14 total partners
Harvard: 22 total partners
UChicago's class size (after transfers): 210 students
Harvard's class size (after transfers): 600 students

UChicago attorneys/class size = 0.076
Harvard attorneys/class size = 0.078

UChicago partners/class size = 0.067
Harvard partners/class size = 0.037

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ahduth
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby ahduth » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:03 am

sparty99 wrote:Ya'll need to get over yourselves. Chicago is a fantastic school and so is Harvard, Stanford. This is the dumbest argument ever based on opinions and your pretentiousness.


You're on the wrong website. Thanks for playing though.

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ahduth
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby ahduth » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:05 am

Helmholtz wrote:
ahduth wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:Yeah. There is a rant out there from autoadmit I can post.

Seriously though, you cant argue against empirical evidence.

I just quoted you three statistics that show that Chicago is objectively better than at least Harvard, and probably Stanford.

Explain to me why Chicago outplaces Harvard and Stanford in Biglaw, Supreme Court Clerkships, and as law firm partners.

I know that because a school lacks lay prestige and has nerdy students that it is easy to make fun of it, but it is probably owning your school.


Here's Harvard: http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

Where's Chicago?


UChicago: 16 total attorneys
Harvard: 47 total attorneys
UChicago: 14 total partners
Harvard: 22 total partners
UChicago's class size (after transfers): 210 students
Harvard's class size (after transfers): 600 students

UChicago attorneys/class size = 0.076
Harvard attorneys/class size = 0.078

UChicago partners/class size = 0.067
Harvard attorneys/class size = 0.037


Jesus Christ I missed a "the" and you win. Just for shits and giggles can you find me an appellate firm that has Harvard beating Chicago?

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thexfactor
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby thexfactor » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:06 am

from an employers perspective - id say washu is underrated. High lsat gpa but shitty job prospects. UCLA/GULC is only marginally better in terms of lsat and gpa but WUSTL recruiting is a lot worse compared to those schools.

from student- id say ND. At least you dont have HR acting confused when you say you go to washu. They have a great alumni base that is actually responsive. At least you can try to "network" with them.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:07 am

Helmholtz wrote:UChicago: 16 total attorneys
Harvard: 47 total attorneys
UChicago: 14 total partners
Harvard: 22 total partners
UChicago's class size (after transfers): 210 students
Harvard's class size (after transfers): 600 students

UChicago attorneys/class size = 0.076
Harvard attorneys/class size = 0.078

UChicago partners/class size = 0.067
Harvard attorneys/class size = 0.037


Mod smackdown.

But seriously, Chicago and Columbia are generally as good as HYS to the extent to which someone shouldn't automatically turn them down merely because they were accepted to HYS (Particularly H).

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:24 pm

I am not trolling, I really think that as an indistinct (no real softs) white male with normal social skills, you will probably be better coming out of Chicago's class than Harvard's. Because there are three times as many of you at Harvard, there may be 30 or so of you at Chicago while there will be around 100 at Harvard.

This may not help a ton when applying to New York and DC, but it will definitely help when applying to mid-level markets such as Phoenix, San Diego, and Seattle. There may be only one or two like you applying to these firms from Chicago with ties in each region, while you are competing with five or so for each position at Harvard.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:27 pm

Oh, and BYU is really underrated in the 40's. They place pretty well in mid/big law (20%) and only costs 5 grand per year.

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Supreme
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Supreme » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:46 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:I am not trolling, I really think that as an indistinct (no real softs) white male with normal social skills, you will probably be better coming out of Chicago's class than Harvard's. Because there are three times as many of you at Harvard, there may be 30 or so of you at Chicago while there will be around 100 at Harvard.

This may not help a ton when applying to New York and DC, but it will definitely help when applying to mid-level markets such as Phoenix, San Diego, and Seattle. There may be only one or two like you applying to these firms from Chicago with ties in each region, while you are competing with five or so for each position at Harvard.

If you have normal social skills at Chicago, there are a lot fewer than 30 people like you in your class.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:48 pm

Supreme wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:I am not trolling, I really think that as an indistinct (no real softs) white male with normal social skills, you will probably be better coming out of Chicago's class than Harvard's. Because there are three times as many of you at Harvard, there may be 30 or so of you at Chicago while there will be around 100 at Harvard.

This may not help a ton when applying to New York and DC, but it will definitely help when applying to mid-level markets such as Phoenix, San Diego, and Seattle. There may be only one or two like you applying to these firms from Chicago with ties in each region, while you are competing with five or so for each position at Harvard.

If you have normal social skills at Chicago, there are a lot fewer than 30 people like you in your class.

So I take it you're enjoying orientation?

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KremeCheez
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby KremeCheez » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:57 pm

Full-rides are underrated.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:57 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Supreme wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:I am not trolling, I really think that as an indistinct (no real softs) white male with normal social skills, you will probably be better coming out of Chicago's class than Harvard's. Because there are three times as many of you at Harvard, there may be 30 or so of you at Chicago while there will be around 100 at Harvard.

This may not help a ton when applying to New York and DC, but it will definitely help when applying to mid-level markets such as Phoenix, San Diego, and Seattle. There may be only one or two like you applying to these firms from Chicago with ties in each region, while you are competing with five or so for each position at Harvard.

If you have normal social skills at Chicago, there are a lot fewer than 30 people like you in your class.

So I take it you're enjoying orientation?


I have to say that all the other academics-to-be in my study group are some of the most normal, intellectual, qualified-to-be-in-a-study-group people I've interacted with in a fairly long time.

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Supreme
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby Supreme » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:59 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Supreme wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:I am not trolling, I really think that as an indistinct (no real softs) white male with normal social skills, you will probably be better coming out of Chicago's class than Harvard's. Because there are three times as many of you at Harvard, there may be 30 or so of you at Chicago while there will be around 100 at Harvard.

This may not help a ton when applying to New York and DC, but it will definitely help when applying to mid-level markets such as Phoenix, San Diego, and Seattle. There may be only one or two like you applying to these firms from Chicago with ties in each region, while you are competing with five or so for each position at Harvard.

If you have normal social skills at Chicago, there are a lot fewer than 30 people like you in your class.

So I take it you're enjoying orientation?

but of course.

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PDaddy
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby PDaddy » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:02 pm

chimp wrote:^Seems like a random listing of law schools.^


It really is, and that's kind of the point. I am certainly not the arbiter of law school quality. We all have our differing and equally valid reasons for why certain schools are underrated (or "under-ranked", which is a slightly different dynamic). I can admit that mine are no better or more valid than is anyone else's.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:53 am

I go to NYU, which is underrated and at least as good as Stanford, possibly Yale, and certainly better than Harvard. I believe this because of the school's unparalleled public interest network, strong placement in big law firms, and large class size which, along with its location, presents extremely broad extracurricular opportunities.

See how easy that was? It's a fact now. NYU > Chicago.

(I think NYU is actually underrated on TLS because people can't get over the fact that it's associated with a relatively mediocre university and will go on and on about how it's only any good because of the location, as if that's a criticism.)

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby TaipeiMort » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:58 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:I go to NYU, which is underrated and at least as good as Stanford, possibly Yale, and certainly better than Harvard. I believe this because of the school's unparalleled public interest network, strong placement in big law firms, and large class size which, along with its location, presents extremely broad extracurricular opportunities.

See how easy that was? It's a fact now. NYU > Chicago.

(I think NYU is actually underrated on TLS because people can't get over the fact that it's associated with a relatively mediocre university and will go on and on about how it's only any good because of the location, as if that's a criticism.)


Except I quoted actual data. However, I do agree that NYU is underrated in some ways (respect in NYC and anywhere NYC law firms go), and is not a product of its location, but rather its successful alumni base (see NYLS, WLRK).

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:08 am

TaipeiMort wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:I go to NYU, which is underrated and at least as good as Stanford, possibly Yale, and certainly better than Harvard. I believe this because of the school's unparalleled public interest network, strong placement in big law firms, and large class size which, along with its location, presents extremely broad extracurricular opportunities.

See how easy that was? It's a fact now. NYU > Chicago.

(I think NYU is actually underrated on TLS because people can't get over the fact that it's associated with a relatively mediocre university and will go on and on about how it's only any good because of the location, as if that's a criticism.)


Except I quoted actual data. However, I do agree that NYU is underrated in some ways (respect in NYC and anywhere NYC law firms go), and is not a product of its location, but rather its successful alumni base (see NYLS, WLRK).

Right, but the things you cite are so susceptible to self-selection that, at the level of schools you're talking about, they aren't really a good basis for measuring anything. For instance, to me it seems silly to claim that Chicago having twice as many biglaw partners as anyone else is suggestive of the school's quality. There is almost nothing anyone learns in law school that is in any way related to the skills you need to become a partner. I think the far simpler explanation is that Chicago attracts people who are willing to work harder than average -- grinders -- and people who are probably genuinely more intellectually interested in the law than average. These things make it likely that Chicago grads will be, on average, happier to stay in a firm environment for the long term, but I think it is entirely a function of the very particular qualities that the school attracts in its student body. Same goes, to some extent, for the biglaw placement and clerkship placement, IMO. Going to Chicago doesn't make you more likely to get these things; rather, if you go to Chicago, you are probably more interested in pursuing these things.

Anyway, I'm not out to shit on Chicago, I'm sure it's a great school and I wish you and everyone else there the best of luck. I just think this is such a hopeless and pointless endeavor, which is something I wish I had known a couple of years ago when trying to make these kinds of fine distinctions among schools.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby TaipeiMort » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:53 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:I go to NYU, which is underrated and at least as good as Stanford, possibly Yale, and certainly better than Harvard. I believe this because of the school's unparalleled public interest network, strong placement in big law firms, and large class size which, along with its location, presents extremely broad extracurricular opportunities.

See how easy that was? It's a fact now. NYU > Chicago.

(I think NYU is actually underrated on TLS because people can't get over the fact that it's associated with a relatively mediocre university and will go on and on about how it's only any good because of the location, as if that's a criticism.)


Except I quoted actual data. However, I do agree that NYU is underrated in some ways (respect in NYC and anywhere NYC law firms go), and is not a product of its location, but rather its successful alumni base (see NYLS, WLRK).

Right, but the things you cite are so susceptible to self-selection that, at the level of schools you're talking about, they aren't really a good basis for measuring anything. For instance, to me it seems silly to claim that Chicago having twice as many biglaw partners as anyone else is suggestive of the school's quality. There is almost nothing anyone learns in law school that is in any way related to the skills you need to become a partner. I think the far simpler explanation is that Chicago attracts people who are willing to work harder than average -- grinders -- and people who are probably genuinely more intellectually interested in the law than average. These things make it likely that Chicago grads will be, on average, happier to stay in a firm environment for the long term, but I think it is entirely a function of the very particular qualities that the school attracts in its student body. Same goes, to some extent, for the biglaw placement and clerkship placement, IMO. Going to Chicago doesn't make you more likely to get these things; rather, if you go to Chicago, you are probably more interested in pursuing these things.

Anyway, I'm not out to shit on Chicago, I'm sure it's a great school and I wish you and everyone else there the best of luck. I just think this is such a hopeless and pointless endeavor, which is something I wish I had known a couple of years ago when trying to make these kinds of fine distinctions among schools.


Agreed with everything.

At the T6 level, I think quality is generally uniform in terms of educational experiences. In the end distinctions are pretty subtle and based on personal preference, ie:

NYU: For hipstes and PI people.

Columbia: For people who want to feel like the best in NYC.

Harvard: For those that care more about lay prestige than educational quality.

Stanford: For those who actually care where they live.

Chicago: For those looking for rigor and slightly nerdy.

Yale: For those who are better than everyone else.

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chrisbru
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby chrisbru » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:49 pm

sparty99 wrote:Ya'll need to get over yourselves. Chicago is a fantastic school and so is Harvard, Stanford. This is the dumbest argument ever based on opinions and your pretentiousness.


Late to the party, but needs to be said:

Please don't try and condemn someone's argument until you can learn how contractions work.

sparty99
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Re: Underrated Law Schools

Postby sparty99 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:55 pm

chrisbru wrote:
sparty99 wrote:Ya'll need to get over yourselves. Chicago is a fantastic school and so is Harvard, Stanford. This is the dumbest argument ever based on opinions and your pretentiousness.


Late to the party, but needs to be said:

Please don't try and condemn someone's argument until you can learn how contractions work.


You were doubting my full-ride, but you had a 2.9 gpa and got a full ride at Iowa. I can HARDLY see why you have any room for doubt......




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