Where Do Partners Come From?

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nireca
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Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby nireca » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:22 pm

If you are trying to decide where to go to law school and your goal is to become a partner at an NLJ100 or NLJ250 firm, then you might want to read this.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1903934
Last edited by nireca on Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

071816
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby 071816 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:32 pm

--LinkRemoved--

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Ty Webb
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby Ty Webb » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:37 pm

nireca wrote:If you are trying to decide where to go to law school and your goal is to become a partner at an NLJ100 or NLJ250 firm, then you need to read this article right away.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1903934


They come from well-adjusted parents who teach their kids to be socially adept. Those kids go on to shine in the legal world - a place made up mostly of overstimulated and entitled hermits.

kaiser
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby kaiser » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:39 pm

I tell kids that partners come from the stork, to protect their innocense from the messy reality of how partners are made

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minnbills
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby minnbills » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:41 pm

They managed to catch the unicorn, so a background in magic is likely.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:52 pm

minnbills wrote:They managed to catch the unicorn, so a background in magic is likely.

--ImageRemoved--

nireca
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby nireca » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:17 am

chimp wrote:--LinkRemoved--

True to your name chimp. I know you just discovered that trick and have been dying to use it, but this was not the place. This is a well-designed study with meaningful conclusions. Not the kind of information you could retrieve from a simple google search, unless of course that search led you to this article. On the off chance that you were intending to criticize my post for linking an article that could easily be found via a google search, well, that assumes people would know what to search for, and I'm not so sure that is the case. At any rate, my intent was simply to pass on an article that I found interesting.

Apparently most of the responders to this post saw the article and had a "tl;dr" reaction so I'll give an overview for anyone who is actually interested.

Between June 2010 and June 2011, ten research assistants searched Martindale-Hubbell on-line for each of the 250 largest U.S. law firms – specifically, the 250 firms reported by the National Law Journal as the “2009 NLJ 250.” Each partner’s J.D. school, date of graduation or date of first bar admission, and office or offices of practice were collected. Date of first bar admission was used as a proxy where date of graduation was not listed. Law firm websites were searched to fill in missing data. The result was a database of 48,103 partners nationwide....

Readers may find some of these numbers surprising. Over the past 25 years, Chicago has graduated far more students who have gone on to become and remain NLJ 100 partners than Yale or Stanford, despite the fact that the three are of comparable size. Georgetown, less than 30% larger than Texas (with which it is ranked equally by U.S. News), has produced almost twice as many NLJ 100 partners as the latter. Indeed, Georgetown has achieved the second largest big-firm footprint of any law school in the country, second only to Harvard. St. John’s, a school only slightly larger than the U.S. average, outperforms its U.S. News ranking by an astonishing 53 places; Miami by 51 places; Villanova by 49; DePaul 47; Catholic 43; Loyola Chicago 42....

What do these numbers mean?...

First, they tell us that not all schools produce national law firm partners at rates consistent with their U.S. News rank, even controlling for size. Some produce more; some less. The data do not tell us why....

Second, not surprisingly, large schools generally produce more NLJ 100 partners than small schools....

These aggregate data are not intended as, and should not be read as, measures of value added. They do, however, provide a plausible measure of feeder school status. A school that has placed large numbers of partners in the NLJ 100 over the past 25 years is likely to continue to attract NLJ 100 recruiters to its campus. Hiring committees at such firms, in turn, are likely to assume that hiring from that school is normal and will likely be productive. All else being equal, students who aspire to join such firms are more likely to have an opportunity to do so if they attend schools with established feeder relationships....

Local schools dominate the lists: NYU and Columbia in New York; Georgetown and George Washington in DC; Northwestern and Chicago in Chicago; UCLA and Loyola Los Angeles in LA; BC, BU, and Harvard in Boston. The fact that a school places high in the U.S. News rankings does not necessarily mean it will be a feeder to law firm offices outside the region in which it is located. Yale appears on just two lists, New York (10th) and Washington, DC (7th); Stanford only on the California lists, Los Angeles (10th), San Francisco (8th), and San Diego (5th). Stanford’s relatively poor showing in San Francisco is particularly surprising....

Are there any schools that are significant feeders in all ten of the largest U.S. markets? Only one: Harvard....

The purpose of the present study is not to supplant or critique existing rankings. It is rather to provide information not otherwise available that employers and law school applicants may find useful in making the practical choices they inevitably have to make....

TooOld4This
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby TooOld4This » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:21 am

nireca wrote:If you are trying to decide where to go to law school and your goal is to become a partner at an NLJ100 or NLJ250 firm, then you need to read this article right away.


No.
nireca wrote:
What do these numbers mean?...

First, they tell us that not all schools produce national law firm partners at rates consistent with their U.S. News rank, even controlling for size. Some produce more; some less. The data do not tell us why....

Second, not surprisingly, large schools generally produce more NLJ 100 partners than small schools....



1. Self-selection
2. The bigger the school, the more people there will be that want to become partners.
3. None of the traditionally top-ranked USNWR schools lack for recruitment.

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minnbills
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby minnbills » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:41 am

Actually Nireca pretty sure this has already been posted

nireca
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby nireca » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:59 am

TooOld4This wrote:
nireca wrote:If you are trying to decide where to go to law school and your goal is to become a partner at an NLJ100 or NLJ250 firm, then you need to read this article right away.


No.
nireca wrote:
What do these numbers mean?...

First, they tell us that not all schools produce national law firm partners at rates consistent with their U.S. News rank, even controlling for size. Some produce more; some less. The data do not tell us why....

Second, not surprisingly, large schools generally produce more NLJ 100 partners than small schools....



1. Self-selection
2. The bigger the school, the more people there will be that want to become partners.
3. None of the traditionally top-ranked USNWR schools lack for recruitment.


Before I get anymore gunners trying to argue me point for point on the conclusions drawn on this article let me just say that the only reason I posted this is that I thought it could be useful to 0Ls. Take it for what it's worth. If you don't like it that's cool. It's just one data point among many. Nevertheless, I believe it could be a useful one for many. The conclusions drawn have been anecdotally true for a while now, but this piece argues for them on the basis of statistical evidence, which I think is great.

Now...

1. Not sure exactly what you are saying is a result of self-selection so I'll put that aside.
2. That may be part of the equation. Another factor, which the article argues, is that firms get more bang for their buck by having OCI at larger schools.
3. "[R]oughly 500 firms interview on-campus at Harvard each year; 250-300 at Georgetown; only about 125 at Yale." Perhaps they aren't lacking but there are certainly significant differences. If I am a 0L who got into Yale and Georgetown only and I want to become a partner at an NLJ 100, then I'm going Georgetown, all other things being equal. In fact, all other things won't be equal, since if I got into Yale I probably got money at Georgetown, which makes the decision a no brainer.

nireca
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby nireca » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:00 am

minnbills wrote:Actually Nireca pretty sure this has already been posted


In that case, my bad. I don't post here very much anymore but when I saw the article I thought that TLS readers might appreciate it. It would seem that I was wrong however...

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minnbills
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby minnbills » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:14 am

nireca wrote:
minnbills wrote:Actually Nireca pretty sure this has already been posted


In that case, my bad. I don't post here very much anymore but when I saw the article I thought that TLS readers might appreciate it. It would seem that I was wrong however...


I hear ya. From what I remember of that thread, it was noted that any conclusion you can draw from this study is limited at best because of the differences in class sizes.

I would say the most important placement stats are still coming straight from the NLJ.

nireca
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby nireca » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:18 am

minnbills wrote:
nireca wrote:
minnbills wrote:Actually Nireca pretty sure this has already been posted


In that case, my bad. I don't post here very much anymore but when I saw the article I thought that TLS readers might appreciate it. It would seem that I was wrong however...


I hear ya. From what I remember of that thread, it was noted that any conclusion you can draw from this study is limited at best because of the differences in class sizes.

I would say the most important placement stats are still coming straight from the NLJ.


Totally agree. The takeaway for me was mostly the importance of going to school where you hope to work. Definitely not a new idea, but the study gives a lot of weight to the notion.

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NYC Law
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby NYC Law » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:42 am

This study isn't biased at all.

Table 5: Top Feeder Schools: Los Angeles
Rank 1986- Partners in the NLJ 100
1 UCLA 128
2 Loyola Los Angeles 111
3 USC 82
4 UC Berkeley 67
5 Harvard 63
6 UC Hastings 50


Where Do Partners Come from?


Theodore P. Seto
Loyola Law School Los Angeles



Journal of Legal Education, Forthcoming
Loyola-LA Legal Studies Paper No. 2011-24

nireca
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby nireca » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:36 am

NYC Law wrote:This study isn't biased at all.

Table 5: Top Feeder Schools: Los Angeles
Rank 1986- Partners in the NLJ 100
1 UCLA 128
2 Loyola Los Angeles 111
3 USC 82
4 UC Berkeley 67
5 Harvard 63
6 UC Hastings 50


Where Do Partners Come from?


Theodore P. Seto
Loyola Law School Los Angeles



Journal of Legal Education, Forthcoming
Loyola-LA Legal Studies Paper No. 2011-24


lol ya, i thought that was a little suspicious too, but the methodology appears sound and that result is consistent with the conclusions of the study; i.e. that firms recruit locally and that larger schools are more attractive recruiting locations to firms.

I looked up the total # of students for a few CA schools and here is what I found:

Hastings: 1299
Loyola: 1287
UCLA: 1011
Boalt: 892
Pepperdine: 667
USC: 618
Davis: 606
Stanford: 557

So, with the exception of Hastings, which feeds primarily to the SF market, Loyola has a huge leg up on its competitors in terms of graduates in the LA market--nearly 2:1 in most cases

alternative explanation to bias: that the possibility of this outcome is what convinced loyola to fund the study in the first place.

definitely problems with this study, but i'm not convinced bias is one of them.

071816
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby 071816 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:29 pm

Why you calling me out OP? This study is highly misleading and has already been discussed in detail In another thread, which is why I posted the link earlier. Who looks stupid now?

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j12
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby j12 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:45 pm

nireca wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
nireca wrote:If you are trying to decide where to go to law school and your goal is to become a partner at an NLJ100 or NLJ250 firm, then you need to read this article right away.


No.
1. Self-selection
2. The bigger the school, the more people there will be that want to become partners.
3. None of the traditionally top-ranked USNWR schools lack for recruitment.


Before I get anymore gunners trying to argue me point for point on the conclusions drawn on this article let me just say that the only reason I posted this is that I thought it could be useful to 0Ls. Take it for what it's worth. If you don't like it that's cool. It's just one data point among many. Nevertheless, I believe it could be a useful one for many. The conclusions drawn have been anecdotally true for a while now, but this piece argues for them on the basis of statistical evidence, which I think is great.
Now...

1. Not sure exactly what you are saying is a result of self-selection so I'll put that aside.
2. That may be part of the equation. Another factor, which the article argues, is that firms get more bang for their buck by having OCI at larger schools.
3. "[R]oughly 500 firms interview on-campus at Harvard each year; 250-300 at Georgetown; only about 125 at Yale." Perhaps they aren't lacking but there are certainly significant differences.If I am a 0L who got into Yale and Georgetown only and I want to become a partner at an NLJ 100, then I'm going Georgetown, all other things being equal. In fact, all other things won't be equal, since if I got into Yale I probably got money at Georgetown, which makes the decision a no brainer.

Troll Identified

071816
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby 071816 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:55 pm

nireca wrote:This is a well-designed study with meaningful conclusions. Not the kind of information you could retrieve from a simple google search, unless of course that search led you to this article. On the off chance that you were intending to criticize my post for linking an article that could easily be found via a google search


A) The link I posted was not a google search. I guess you didn't click on it.
B) The first thing that pops up when you do a search on TLS for the terms I used is a thread about this article from last month.
C) I don't see how this is a "well designed study." Pretty useless if you ask me.

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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby TheFactor » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:05 pm

nireca wrote: "[R]oughly 500 firms interview on-campus at Harvard each year; 250-300 at Georgetown; only about 125 at Yale." Perhaps they aren't lacking but there are certainly significant differences. If I am a 0L who got into Yale and Georgetown only and I want to become a partner at an NLJ 100, then I'm going Georgetown, all other things being equal. In fact, all other things won't be equal, since if I got into Yale I probably got money at Georgetown, which makes the decision a no brainer.

lololololololololol

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:11 pm

nireca wrote:
minnbills wrote:Actually Nireca pretty sure this has already been posted


In that case, my bad. I don't post here very much anymore but when I saw the article I thought that TLS readers might appreciate it. It would seem that I was wrong however...

In that case, let's not bitch people out without doing due diligence, K?


nireca
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby nireca » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:30 pm

chimp wrote:Why you calling me out OP? This study is highly misleading and has already been discussed in detail In another thread, which is why I posted the link earlier. Who looks stupid now?


My apologies for posting something that had already been posted and then calling you out for trying to bring attention to this fact. There is no question that I was in the wrong.

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abitaman6363
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby abitaman6363 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:21 am

nireca wrote:3. "[R]oughly 500 firms interview on-campus at Harvard each year; 250-300 at Georgetown; only about 125 at Yale." Perhaps they aren't lacking but there are certainly significant differences. If I am a 0L who got into Yale and Georgetown only and I want to become a partner at an NLJ 100, then I'm going Georgetown, all other things being equal. In fact, all other things won't be equal, since if I got into Yale I probably got money at Georgetown, which makes the decision a no brainer.


I am a one-day 1L at Yale so take this (and everything posted on TLS) with a grain of salt. Considering the extremely small class size at YLS (only 205 students in this entering class) and the fact that an astronomical number of YLS grads gain clerkships or do public interest work without seeking firm work, I would be wary to overvalue the number of firms that interview on campus here.

First, you must take into account the quality (not simply quantity) of firms.

Secondly, you must consider the number of applicants actually seeking such firms. (Not sure of Georgetown's size but YLS is rather small)

Third, you must consider factors other than simply the applicant pool: How much does the school rank factor into firm offers? Does a school's grading policy make it easier to gain firm offers?

Pure speculation, but I imagine so few partners hale from Yale because of the unusually large number of YLS grads striving for clerkships, professorships, non-firm positions, and jobs that have zero or mere tangential relationships to the legal profession.

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NYC Law
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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby NYC Law » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:33 am

abitaman6363 wrote:
nireca wrote:3. "[R]oughly 500 firms interview on-campus at Harvard each year; 250-300 at Georgetown; only about 125 at Yale." Perhaps they aren't lacking but there are certainly significant differences. If I am a 0L who got into Yale and Georgetown only and I want to become a partner at an NLJ 100, then I'm going Georgetown, all other things being equal. In fact, all other things won't be equal, since if I got into Yale I probably got money at Georgetown, which makes the decision a no brainer.


I am a one-day 1L at Yale so take this (and everything posted on TLS) with a grain of salt. Considering the extremely small class size at YLS (only 205 students in this entering class) and the fact that an astronomical number of YLS grads gain clerkships or do public interest work without seeking firm work, I would be wary to overvalue the number of firms that interview on campus here.

First, you must take into account the quality (not simply quantity) of firms.

Secondly, you must consider the number of applicants actually seeking such firms. (Not sure of Georgetown's size but YLS is rather small)

Third, you must consider factors other than simply the applicant pool: How much does the school rank factor into firm offers? Does a school's grading policy make it easier to gain firm offers?

Pure speculation, but I imagine so few partners hale from Yale because of the unusually large number of YLS grads striving for clerkships, professorships, non-firm positions, and jobs that have zero or mere tangential relationships to the legal profession.


Enough people recognize the stupidity of this statement that you didn't have provide a rebuttal.

Yale grads aren't all law firm partners because they're too busy becoming governors, presidents, leaders of NGOs, and CEOs. HTH.

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Re: Where Do Partners Come From?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:24 pm

NYC Law wrote:Yale grads aren't all law firm partners because they're too busy becoming governors, presidents, leaders of NGOs, and CEOs law professors. HTH.




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