Question about non-NLJ250 firms

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TheZoid
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Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby TheZoid » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:14 am

So the big metric for how well schools place their students is obviously the NLJ250. However, there are a lot of solid firms in smaller markets (I guess what would be considered mid-law?) that are not NLJ250, that have good salaries like 80-110 depending on the firm. At say, a T-14, what percent of students that do not land NLJ250 are able to snag these jobs? Or would it be the case that once you fall out of contention at NLJ250, chances are your grades won't get it done even for mid-law?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:17 am

It's impossible to tell. However, a lot of those jobs go to the top 20-33% at regional schools (latin honors range).

TheZoid
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby TheZoid » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:20 am

Yea that's a good point. I know that's true at least to some degree. I just didn't know if they'd rather grab a T-14 grad over the cream of the crop from the local TTT.

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KMaine
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby KMaine » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:26 am

TheZoid wrote:Yea that's a good point. I know that's true at least to some degree. I just didn't know if they'd rather grab a T-14 grad over the cream of the crop from the local TTT.


If you have ties to the area and decent grades, they often would grab a t-14 grad.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:32 am

KMaine wrote:
TheZoid wrote:Yea that's a good point. I know that's true at least to some degree. I just didn't know if they'd rather grab a T-14 grad over the cream of the crop from the local TTT.


If you have ties to the area and decent grades, they often would grab a t-14 grad.


Yeah. That's more of a case-by-case situation.

By regional, I meant T1/T2, not T3/T4. Most firms would rather grab slightly sub-median T14 students than T10% T3/T4 students (assuming they were forced to choose from only those two options).

Edit: This was in response to the OP mentioning the local TTT. It's difficult to give good advice without knowing what markets in particular we are referring to.
Last edited by Aberzombie1892 on Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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blurbz
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby blurbz » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:38 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
KMaine wrote:
TheZoid wrote:Yea that's a good point. I know that's true at least to some degree. I just didn't know if they'd rather grab a T-14 grad over the cream of the crop from the local TTT.


If you have ties to the area and decent grades, they often would grab a t-14 grad.


Yeah. That's more of a case-by-case situation.

By regional, I meant T1/T2, not T3/T4. Most firms would rather grab slightly sub-median T14 students than T10% T3/T4 students (assuming they were forced to choose from only those two options).



I agree if these are the only options, but I think it's a lot murkier when you throw in top students at a T1 school. Those regional firms are likely filled with alums of the regional powerhouse schools.

MrAnon
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby MrAnon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:02 pm

2-3%. Very small figure. The best local firms don't want biglaw OCI rejects or people who left the area because they felt they were too good for it but found out it was hard to get top 1/3 at T14 than they imagined.

TheZoid
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby TheZoid » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:21 pm

MrAnon wrote:2-3%. Very small figure. The best local firms don't want biglaw OCI rejects or people who left the area because they felt they were too good for it but found out it was hard to get top 1/3 at T14 than they imagined.


Lol are they leaving the area because they thought they were too good for it or wanted to get the best education and study alongside the brightest individuals attending law school? I don't doubt that it's a small figure, but let's be fair to people attending T-14's here.

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Wholigan
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby Wholigan » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:02 pm

I think it's actually a higher number than 2-3%. I would guess 6-8%. For example, at Penn, there are 15 firms by my count in the PA/NJ/DE region which participate in OCI (including resume collect) and are non-NLJ. These range from firms which should be considered mid-law, to firms which are IP or lit boutiques. The pay is mostly $110-145k at these places.

The problem is that most of these firms have a summer class size of 2-5 students, so the impact on employment numbers will not be huge. I do think a lot of them would consider someone from at or below median at T14 with ties to the area the firm is in, just to keep enough T14s in their ranks. Also, if you take the lit/IP boutiques, there are absolutely law review/latin honor types who self-select there. If you use Penn as an example, if 10 of the 15 firms each take one Penn student, and 10 more students end up at similar firms in other areas of the country, those 20 students would be 8% of the class, so that's my educated guess.

TheZoid
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby TheZoid » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:56 pm

Wholigan wrote:I think it's actually a higher number than 2-3%. I would guess 6-8%. For example, at Penn, there are 15 firms by my count in the PA/NJ/DE region which participate in OCI (including resume collect) and are non-NLJ. These range from firms which should be considered mid-law, to firms which are IP or lit boutiques. The pay is mostly $110-145k at these places.

The problem is that most of these firms have a summer class size of 2-5 students, so the impact on employment numbers will not be huge. I do think a lot of them would consider someone from at or below median at T14 with ties to the area the firm is in, just to keep enough T14s in their ranks. Also, if you take the lit/IP boutiques, there are absolutely law review/latin honor types who self-select there. If you use Penn as an example, if 10 of the 15 firms each take one Penn student, and 10 more students end up at similar firms in other areas of the country, those 20 students would be 8% of the class, so that's my educated guess.


That sounds pretty logical wholigan. Thank for the input.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:15 pm

Image

This should give you an idea of the percentage of "midlaw" jobs. They exist for LS graduates, but there aren't a whole lot of them.

ETA: A lot of the jobs in the 80-125K range are still NLJ 250.

showNprove
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby showNprove » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:50 pm

You would be surprised how many people at top schools go after these types of jobs. I will be in a smaller market, with a non-NLJ250 firm, making $130k to $160k. I passed up NLJ250 firms for it, and I have a friend who passed up a V10 job for an NLJ250 gig. There are so many other considerations you will make by the time you actually search for a job other than the perceived national prestige of the firm, based purely on its size or its Vault ranking. The decision is not "What do I do if I don't get an NLJ250 job?" The decision is, "Where is the office located? What will the job pay me? What will working for this employer do for my career? What will my quality of life be? Will I be able to have a family and see my kids? Will I do interesting work early? What are my partnership prospects?" etc., etc.

At Virginia, about 70% of a class will go to firms, and about 55% will be into NLJ250 firms. Of the remaining 15%, I'd say a majority are either going to the top firms in smaller markets or high-paying boutique firms in large markets.

Given my experience, even in smaller markets, the local schools have a very hard time competing with the T14 schools. At the firms in my market, you'd probably have to be in the top 5% of your class at a local Tier 2 school, whereas grades may not even be a factor in the decision for a T14 applicant if, say, he wrote-on to Law Review or had excellent work experience.

TheZoid
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby TheZoid » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:24 pm

showNprove wrote:You would be surprised how many people at top schools go after these types of jobs. I will be in a smaller market, with a non-NLJ250 firm, making $130k to $160k. I passed up NLJ250 firms for it, and I have a friend who passed up a V10 job for an NLJ250 gig. There are so many other considerations you will make by the time you actually search for a job other than the perceived national prestige of the firm, based purely on its size or its Vault ranking. The decision is not "What do I do if I don't get an NLJ250 job?" The decision is, "Where is the office located? What will the job pay me? What will working for this employer do for my career? What will my quality of life be? Will I be able to have a family and see my kids? Will I do interesting work early? What are my partnership prospects?" etc., etc.

At Virginia, about 70% of a class will go to firms, and about 55% will be into NLJ250 firms. Of the remaining 15%, I'd say a majority are either going to the top firms in smaller markets or high-paying boutique firms in large markets.

Given my experience, even in smaller markets, the local schools have a very hard time competing with the T14 schools. At the firms in my market, you'd probably have to be in the top 5% of your class at a local Tier 2 school, whereas grades may not even be a factor in the decision for a T14 applicant if, say, he wrote-on to Law Review or had excellent work experience.


Good input. Sounds encouraging for the T-14.

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Undergradut
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby Undergradut » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:15 am

A lot of good replies here.

In my secondary market, I think a T14 student has great odds of getting a SA or clerkship with a mid-sized firm, so long as:

1) The student has serious ties to the market. (e.g. grew up there)
2) The student's grades are not horrendous.

My secondary market is hungry for talent, and the fact is that local T2's and TTT's just don't have the talent that a T14 does. ~99% of the students at these local schools couldn't get into a T14 to begin with, or even come close to getting in, which speaks to the inferior abilities of these students.

HeavenWood
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Re: Question about non-NLJ250 firms

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:12 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Image

This should give you an idea of the percentage of "midlaw" jobs. They exist for LS graduates, but there aren't a whole lot of them.

ETA: A lot of the jobs in the 80-125K range are still NLJ 250.

This is true on an absolute scale, but some of the larger secondary markets (like Philly) have healthy midlaw markets that offer competitive pay. Still, I agree that a midlaw job isn't something anyone should be banking on.




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