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Which law schools is the better choice?

Wayne
8
40%
MSU
12
60%
 
Total votes: 20

msuz
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Postby msuz » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:58 pm

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Last edited by msuz on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PurplePirate
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby PurplePirate » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:05 pm

If you want to stay in MI then I would pick MSU. They have a reputable program (in Michigan that is). For what it's worth I liked the school when I visited it. Plus, they are pretty generous with scholarships.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:10 pm

If you could get into Michigan at sticker, that is far and away the best choice. The top schools have excellent LRAP programs that would allow you to pay back your loans while still living comfortably on a public interest salary.
Plus, public interest jobs are just as hard to get as any other job, and you'd have the best shot at one of those jobs out of Michigan.

Breaking into the top 100 means less than nothing. MSU's employment stats still suck. As do Wayne State's, although they suck somewhat less.

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When less than a third of MSU students are even reporting their salaries, your job prospects coming out of the school are pretty bleak.

midwestls
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby midwestls » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:18 pm

If you're absolutely certain you want to work (1) in public interest; and (2) in Michigan, then you should go wherever you get the biggest scholarship, including Toledo (but not Cooley). Your chances at firm law will, of course, be minimal if you change your mind. The differences between Wayne, MSU and Toledo are minimal from a public interest standpoint IMO. If they were all at a similar cost, I'd go to Wayne if I wanted to work in the Detroit area and MSU if I wanted to work North or West of Lansing.

If you get into Michigan and you're not absolutely certain you want to do public interest, you should go to Michigan.

msuz
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby msuz » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:33 pm

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Last edited by msuz on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:53 pm

msuz wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:If you could get into Michigan at sticker, that is far and away the best choice. The top schools have excellent LRAP programs that would allow you to pay back your loans while still living comfortably on a public interest salary.
Plus, public interest jobs are just as hard to get as any other job, and you'd have the best shot at one of those jobs out of Michigan.

Breaking into the top 100 means less than nothing. MSU's employment stats still suck. As do Wayne State's, although they suck somewhat less.

--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--

When less than a third of MSU students are even reporting their salaries, your job prospects coming out of the school are pretty bleak.


How do Waynes suck less? According to LST Wayne's unemployment is 14.2% and MSUs is 1.6%.
MSU: --LinkRemoved--
Wayne: --LinkRemoved--

And for my case, why does it matter if they are reporting salaries or not? Public Interest salaries are generally low anyways.
It's generally accepted that people who aren't reporting their salaries or employment status are either unemployed, working at Starbucks, doing part-time doc review in a sweat shop, or otherwise not eager to share. You really have no idea how many of those "no salary reported, working in private sector" or "employed, other" are McDonald's cashiers. (Hint: they're not making $160k in biglaw or even $60k working for the government.) Those huge bands on the right side of the graphs might as well be unemployed. Maybe a few are making good money in some totally unrelated field, but it's not thanks to their JD.

MSU: 28.8% reporting, salary quartiles of 47.5k/65k/100k
vs
Wayne: 42.3% reporting, salary quartiles of 50k/100k/100k.
Both are terrible, but Wayne's are less so.

Compare to Michigan:
80.5% reporting, salary quartiles of 145k/160k/160k

You really need to do some more research on this.
You're totally disregarding the fact that you're about a billion times more attractive to even GET a PI job with a JD from a top school, AND Michigan now has one of the best LRAP programs. Michigan is TCR in this case.
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TheFactor
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby TheFactor » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:43 pm

msuz wrote:
But all of these threads were posted before MSU broke the top 100.

/facepalm

CanadianWolf
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:17 pm

Do you have a scholarship offer from either law school ? With a substantial scholarship offer, both are reasonable options in light of your goals.

msuz
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby msuz » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:21 pm

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Last edited by msuz on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

midwestls
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby midwestls » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:11 pm

msuz wrote:I'm taking the LSAT in October, so even though all of this is early, with how I am PTing Im assuming I have a good chance of scholarship money at Wayne/MSU, with a chance to get in at Michigan, but I doubt it will be high enough to get a scholly there. I figured I would just do the research now, so I know where to apply later.


Don't sweat it man. Nothing wrong with the questions.

cure
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby cure » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:26 pm

NNNNOOOOOO -- don't do it!!! Umich or nothing. Consider: http://www.SPAM.com .

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ndirish2010
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:32 am

If you can get into Michigan at sticker, and you have solid Michigan ties, go to Notre Dame/UIUC/WUSTL for half off or more, forget the Michigan schools (that is, if you REALLY don't want to pay sticker at U of M). If you decide you don't want PI, all the major Michigan firms come to NDLS and even if they don't come to the others you'd have a good shot coming from them...better than MSU or Wayne. I would imagine that we place better in PI as well.

JCUGuy0428
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby JCUGuy0428 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:31 am

Um, I don't think you necessarily have to go to a Michigan school, and if you can get into Michigan you can get into slightly worse Midwest schools and get more money. But be aware, contrary to what the above poster said, *all* the major Michigan firms/PI groups do not come to other Midwestern schools of ND/WUSTL quality. A few do, but many many do not. I am at one of those midwestern schools and looking in Michigan. I've had to do a lot of leg work myself. In the course of my research, WSU and MSU (and UM always come up) as places these firms and PI groups interview at.

The LRAP program at UM is really something to look at. That will give you the most mobility to find the PI job you want and will help you reduce your debt. If you can get into UM, you should be getting a lot of money from MSU or WSU, both of which, from my experience looking in Michigan, place better than their rank would suggest. That said, you'd have to kill it at those schools to have those opportunities you want.

Also be aware of "percentage of graduates with jobs" stats because those often include barely legally-related jobs and jobs provided by the schools to boost their stats.

So in looking at these options, obviously you want to keep in mind how much you have to pay, and how well you'd have to do in the class to get the kind of job you want (and at this point take into consideration you might change your mind and want a firm - you never know), but also consider if you're ready to do the leg work if you go out of state. Out of state options can be very good for you, if they place well in Michigan. It doesn't sound like you are considering that all too much, but it might be something to look at.

I wouldn't short change non-Michigan options - there are several excellent law schools elsewhere in the Midwest that place well enough in Michigan (esp. if you have ties to the area) that occupy ranks between MSU and Michigan. So if you get into MSU and not Michigan, you'd still have a shot at getting some money from those other schools. If you get into Michigan, there's a good chance you're qualified enough to get a lot of money.

I found myself in much the same place as you. And I ended up at a non-Michigan midwestern school (I didn't get into Michigan) that's providing me good options in Michigan. Just some things to consider.

I'm Sorry Dave
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby I'm Sorry Dave » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:42 am

JCUGuy0428 wrote:Um, I don't think you necessarily have to go to a Michigan school, and if you can get into Michigan you can get into slightly worse Midwest schools and get more money. But be aware, contrary to what the above poster said, *all* the major Michigan firms/PI groups do not come to other Midwestern schools of ND/WUSTL quality. A few do, but many many do not. I am at one of those midwestern schools and looking in Michigan. I've had to do a lot of leg work myself. In the course of my research, WSU and MSU (and UM always come up) as places these firms and PI groups interview at.

The LRAP program at UM is really something to look at. That will give you the most mobility to find the PI job you want and will help you reduce your debt. If you can get into UM, you should be getting a lot of money from MSU or WSU, both of which, from my experience looking in Michigan, place better than their rank would suggest. That said, you'd have to kill it at those schools to have those opportunities you want.

Also be aware of "percentage of graduates with jobs" stats because those often include barely legally-related jobs and jobs provided by the schools to boost their stats.

So in looking at these options, obviously you want to keep in mind how much you have to pay, and how well you'd have to do in the class to get the kind of job you want (and at this point take into consideration you might change your mind and want a firm - you never know), but also consider if you're ready to do the leg work if you go out of state. Out of state options can be very good for you, if they place well in Michigan. It doesn't sound like you are considering that all too much, but it might be something to look at.

I wouldn't short change non-Michigan options - there are several excellent law schools elsewhere in the Midwest that place well enough in Michigan (esp. if you have ties to the area) that occupy ranks between MSU and Michigan. So if you get into MSU and not Michigan, you'd still have a shot at getting some money from those other schools. If you get into Michigan, there's a good chance you're qualified enough to get a lot of money.

I found myself in much the same place as you. And I ended up at a non-Michigan midwestern school (I didn't get into Michigan) that's providing me good options in Michigan. Just some things to consider.


I back all of this in full, as another midwestern student.

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mrtoren
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby mrtoren » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:31 pm

Michigan State's entrance into the top 100 is nothing to take note of. Schools on border routinely move in and out of it. MSU is pumping a lot of money into their school, but they are showing little improvement. The numbers have remained relatively stagnate over the past couple of years. If they were going to make a dramatic boost, they would chop the class size and take only the higher number applicants. As it stands, its not going to climb the rankings any time soon.

Go to the best law school you can get into. You may go with every intention of public interest and then develop a burning passion for corporate law. If you go to a bad school, you would be SOL. Also, the better the law school, the better the LRAP in general. There is even a federal program that will keep your payments to a manageable percentage of your income and abolish the remaining debt after ten years.

JCUGuy0428
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby JCUGuy0428 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:47 pm

You may go with every intention of public interest and then develop a burning passion for corporate law. If you go to a bad school, you would be SOL. Also, the better the law school, the better the LRAP in general. There is even a federal program that will keep your payments to a manageable percentage of your income and abolish the remaining debt after ten years.



This too. This was one of the points I was trying to get across.

msuz
Posts: 184
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby msuz » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:06 pm

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Last edited by msuz on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

midwestls
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby midwestls » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:46 am

msuz wrote:I guess I should have included a "neither" option.

But if I came back to Michigan with a law degree from a Midwestern top-100 law school not named MSU, what would it look like coming back to Michigan to look for a job? Arent my chances better taking the cheaper in-state tuition+MSU alumni connection?


My firm (150 or so lawyers, Detroit based) recruits heavily from Wayne. There are probably more Wayne lawyers on our roster than any other individual school, although I haven't counted recently to be certain. After that it's probably Michigan (large group), followed by Notre Dame (considerably smaller group), Toledo and MSU. I don't know if MSU will increase because of its top 100 ranking, but it hasn't historically been close to Wayne and Michigan. Notre Dame is a very good option to work in Michigan IMO.

Top Law Schools posters tend to really emphasize rank and disregard debt. That's fine if you want to target a V50 career, but if you want to work in Michigan firm law, you're going to have more options being top 20 percent and law review at Wayne than top 50 percent at Texas or Georgetown.

And if you don't have strong state ties, it's extremely difficult to come here from out of state, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

msuz
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Re: Michigan Schools - Wayne vs. MSU

Postby msuz » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:20 am

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