PSA: You will not work in "international law"

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TatteredDignity
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:57 pm

FuManChusco wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
fl0w wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:We had a 1.5 hour lecture in orientation devoted to international law, and I don't think they would have done that if we can't get jobs in that field.


No. You wouldn't think so, would you. And yet...

I mean there are def. opportunities to do things abroad at wustl. But see comments above about the actual market being narrow, international law not being well defined and meaning something different to everyone.

That being said, I am taking "international law" this semester. so we'll see what's up.


I was being facetious, but then again, I've viewed everything at wustl this week with a cynical eye. TLS makes me paranoid.


I felt like the entire week of orientation was a little overboard. Did we really need a 1.5 hour lecture on Stat law? At least Davis was cool. Too bad we don't get to take classes with her.


+1 to all of this.

CynicusRex
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby CynicusRex » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:34 pm

ahduth wrote:Whatever, I came to school to study international law. You guys need to get a grip.


I'm curious, what kind of job do you envision getting in international law, best case scenario?

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TaipeiMort
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:47 pm

If you speak Chinese or Japanese and have real business experience, firms are super interested in you for M&A, capital markets, and inbound litigation work.

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lzyovrachievr
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby lzyovrachievr » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:48 pm

CynicusRex wrote:
ahduth wrote:Whatever, I came to school to study international law. You guys need to get a grip.


I'm curious, what kind of job do you envision getting in international law, best case scenario?

I believe this person is probably joking.

TooOld4This
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby TooOld4This » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:04 am

TaipeiMort wrote:If you speak Chinese or Japanese and have real business experience, firms are super interested in you for M&A, capital markets, and inbound litigation work.



That's not "international law." That's practicing US law on behalf of international clients. (Or learning relevant Chinese or Japanese law.)

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Veyron
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby Veyron » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:24 pm

TooOld4This wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:If you speak Chinese or Japanese and have real business experience, firms are super interested in you for M&A, capital markets, and inbound litigation work.



That's not "international law." That's practicing US law on behalf of international clients. (Or learning relevant Chinese or Japanese law.)


No shit. That IS "international law." In case you didn't realize, we don't have one world government. Hence no "international" law. Even when lawyers deal with things like the laws of war, what they are really dealing with is the laws that one country has made to govern its war fighting. Some of that shit is based on treaties but treaties are only law insofar as a country has adopted and chooses to enforce them.

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Naked Dude
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby Naked Dude » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:34 pm

Veyron wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:If you speak Chinese or Japanese and have real business experience, firms are super interested in you for M&A, capital markets, and inbound litigation work.



That's not "international law." That's practicing US law on behalf of international clients. (Or learning relevant Chinese or Japanese law.)


No shit. That IS "international law." In case you didn't realize, we don't have one world government. Hence no "international" law. Even when lawyers deal with things like the laws of war, what they are really dealing with is the laws that one country has made to govern its war fighting. Some of that shit is based on treaties but treaties are only law insofar as a country has adopted and chooses to enforce them.


descriptively, yes

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TaipeiMort
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby TaipeiMort » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:37 pm

Naked Dude wrote:
Veyron wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:If you speak Chinese or Japanese and have real business experience, firms are super interested in you for M&A, capital markets, and inbound litigation work.



That's not "international law." That's practicing US law on behalf of international clients. (Or learning relevant Chinese or Japanese law.)


No shit. That IS "international law." In case you didn't realize, we don't have one world government. Hence no "international" law. Even when lawyers deal with things like the laws of war, what they are really dealing with is the laws that one country has made to govern its war fighting. Some of that shit is based on treaties but treaties are only law insofar as a country has adopted and chooses to enforce them.


descriptively, yes


I don't know what else people will do that really qualifies as "international" law. If it is some type of human rights work, wont they be applying the codes of a particular country?

I guess if we are talking about working for some body that assists clients with compliance or navigation of a body of international codes, I guess that would be the other option.

However, if people come into law school thinking they will be doing this at graduation, they are crazy.

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johansantana21
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:39 pm

I don't know if these people actually "expect" to work in international law. A lot of them dream about it.

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quakeroats
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby quakeroats » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:44 am

Veyron wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:If you speak Chinese or Japanese and have real business experience, firms are super interested in you for M&A, capital markets, and inbound litigation work.



That's not "international law." That's practicing US law on behalf of international clients. (Or learning relevant Chinese or Japanese law.)


No shit. That IS "international law." In case you didn't realize, we don't have one world government. Hence no "international" law. Even when lawyers deal with things like the laws of war, what they are really dealing with is the laws that one country has made to govern its war fighting. Some of that shit is based on treaties but treaties are only law insofar as a country has adopted and chooses to enforce them.


If we had a one-world government, we wouldn't have international law.

TooOld4This
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby TooOld4This » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:19 am

Veyron wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:If you speak Chinese or Japanese and have real business experience, firms are super interested in you for M&A, capital markets, and inbound litigation work.



That's not "international law." That's practicing US law on behalf of international clients. (Or learning relevant Chinese or Japanese law.)


No shit. That IS "international law." In case you didn't realize, we don't have one world government. Hence no "international" law. Even when lawyers deal with things like the laws of war, what they are really dealing with is the laws that one country has made to govern its war fighting. Some of that shit is based on treaties but treaties are only law insofar as a country has adopted and chooses to enforce them.


No. "International Law" has a particular meaning. Just because you do work internationally does not mean you are practicing "international law." M&A attorneys or litigators who have international clients would not refer to themselves as practicing international law -- at least not within the field.

As a field of practice, international law refers to work with supranational organizations. This would include work with the WTO, certain human rights organizations, ICJ, etc. The dividing line is generally where the source of law comes from. If the primary source is domestic, it's not "international law."

Saying you practice international law when you are actually doing corporate or litigation work is akin to calling yourself a constitutional lawyer when you are a plaintiff's attorney that files a bunch of run of the mill Bivens or § 1983 actions as part of your practice. Descriptively accurate on some level, nonsensical within the field.

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vanwinkle
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:29 am

TooOld4This wrote:No. "International Law" has a particular meaning. Just because you do work internationally does not mean you are practicing "international law." M&A attorneys or litigators who have international clients would not refer to themselves as practicing international law -- at least not within the field.

As a field of practice, international law refers to work with supranational organizations. This would include work with the WTO, certain human rights organizations, ICJ, etc. The dividing line is generally where the source of law comes from. If the primary source is domestic, it's not "international law."

Saying you practice international law when you are actually doing corporate or litigation work is akin to calling yourself a constitutional lawyer when you are a plaintiff's attorney that files a bunch of run of the mill Bivens or § 1983 actions as part of your practice. Descriptively accurate on some level, nonsensical within the field.

This is pretty spot-on.

Even at the top, you could be an M&A lawyer helping a NY subsidiary of a European corporation acquire a DE subsidiary of a Chinese corporation, and be working for international clients, but you're still just practicing New York and Delaware law. Most international corporations with significant US operations use US subsidiaries for transactions here to make things legally simpler, which means you rarely have to apply the law of other countries when dealing with them.

Or you could be in China helping advise Chinese companies on how to legally invest or incorporate in the US. You're working abroad, but really practicing US federal and state law. (Even these jobs are fairly rare and competitive.)

Or you could be a litigator helping one of your domestic clients suing a Brazilian distributor for breach of contract, but the contact drafter was at all competent they likely put a NY choice-of-law clause in, so the closest you come to "international law" you practice is convincing a federal or NY judge that federal/NY precedent dictates applying NY law to contract interpretation and enforcement. That's not exactly a new argument, there's reams of precedent on it, and it doesn't actually rely much on the law of other nations at all. It's pretty much "you signed it, you consented to our law, so we'll expect you to follow it now".

So your international M&A deal is still pretty much a standard domestic M&A contract, and your international corporate litigation is still pretty much a standard domestic breach-of-contract suit. Your actual work will still be at least 98% NY/DE/other state/federal law, and that's when you even have a project that's international in nature.

International law is a type of law you can practice. Working with the occasional or even regular international client ≠ practicing international law.

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vanwinkle
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:35 am

Also, I wonder if I should start a thread titled "PSA: You will not work in constitutional law", probably something like this:

There are only three people who actually practice constitutional law, and they all graduated from Harvard in the 1970s. Can you get into Harvard? Do you have a time machine so you can go back and graduate with those guys?

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Bosque
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby Bosque » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:44 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Also, I wonder if I should start a thread titled "PSA: You will not work in constitutional law", probably something like this:

There are only three people who actually practice constitutional law, and they all graduated from Harvard in the 1970s. Can you get into Harvard? Do you have a time machine so you can go back and graduate with those guys?


Pretty true. Although I think most people who say Constitutional Law follow that usually with a "but I know it isn't going to happen so I will actually work in _________." International law 0Ls are less likely to acknowledge the problems with their plan.

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worldtraveler
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:29 pm

I think the problem is more that people use international law to describe a whole variety of things that don't fall within the specific domain of international law. A lot of them are actually more interested in other kinds of law, such as business, immigration, family, or human rights but want to do work either abroad or that has an actual dimension. Some of those things are actually fairly feasible.

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AreJay711
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:57 pm

Trying to do Navy JAG, bro. There is international work at higher ranks / more competitive assignments.

Edit: Also, didn't bother to read.

grimfan
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby grimfan » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:38 pm

worldtraveler wrote:I think the problem is more that people use international law to describe a whole variety of things that don't fall within the specific domain of international law. A lot of them are actually more interested in other kinds of law, such as business, immigration, family, or human rights but want to do work either abroad or that has an actual dimension. Some of those things are actually fairly feasible.


Yeah, I agree with this statement. Unfortunately, I think a lot of 0Lers at TLS with huge internuts love to act big by belittling these people.

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vanwinkle
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:41 pm

grimfan wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:I think the problem is more that people use international law to describe a whole variety of things that don't fall within the specific domain of international law. A lot of them are actually more interested in other kinds of law, such as business, immigration, family, or human rights but want to do work either abroad or that has an actual dimension. Some of those things are actually fairly feasible.

Yeah, I agree with this statement. Unfortunately, I think a lot of 0Lers at TLS with huge internuts love to act big by belittling these people.

:?:

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caputlupinum
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby caputlupinum » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:39 pm

What if you don't want to "work in international law" but you want to work with companies to understand and comply trade tariffs and embargoes? For instance there are over 2,000 regulations on the trade of cotton t shirts. I want to do what the trade attorney/lobbyist does in "The Travels of a T-Shirt in the Global Economy" mostly working in DC.

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fl0w
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby fl0w » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:24 pm

So I'm taking International Law at school now. I've confirmed that I will not be working in international law. But at least it's interesting.

The very first problem: I don't know French. Our prof straight up said, without actually using the word "required," that you've gotta know french to really cut it.

That being said I now view international law as being counsel for a nation represented at the ICJ or working for the ICJ in some aspect.

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quakeroats
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby quakeroats » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:58 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
TooOld4This wrote:No. "International Law" has a particular meaning. Just because you do work internationally does not mean you are practicing "international law." M&A attorneys or litigators who have international clients would not refer to themselves as practicing international law -- at least not within the field.

As a field of practice, international law refers to work with supranational organizations. This would include work with the WTO, certain human rights organizations, ICJ, etc. The dividing line is generally where the source of law comes from. If the primary source is domestic, it's not "international law."

Saying you practice international law when you are actually doing corporate or litigation work is akin to calling yourself a constitutional lawyer when you are a plaintiff's attorney that files a bunch of run of the mill Bivens or § 1983 actions as part of your practice. Descriptively accurate on some level, nonsensical within the field.

This is pretty spot-on.

Even at the top, you could be an M&A lawyer helping a NY subsidiary of a European corporation acquire a DE subsidiary of a Chinese corporation, and be working for international clients, but you're still just practicing New York and Delaware law. Most international corporations with significant US operations use US subsidiaries for transactions here to make things legally simpler, which means you rarely have to apply the law of other countries when dealing with them.

Or you could be in China helping advise Chinese companies on how to legally invest or incorporate in the US. You're working abroad, but really practicing US federal and state law. (Even these jobs are fairly rare and competitive.)

Or you could be a litigator helping one of your domestic clients suing a Brazilian distributor for breach of contract, but the contact drafter was at all competent they likely put a NY choice-of-law clause in, so the closest you come to "international law" you practice is convincing a federal or NY judge that federal/NY precedent dictates applying NY law to contract interpretation and enforcement. That's not exactly a new argument, there's reams of precedent on it, and it doesn't actually rely much on the law of other nations at all. It's pretty much "you signed it, you consented to our law, so we'll expect you to follow it now".

So your international M&A deal is still pretty much a standard domestic M&A contract, and your international corporate litigation is still pretty much a standard domestic breach-of-contract suit. Your actual work will still be at least 98% NY/DE/other state/federal law, and that's when you even have a project that's international in nature.

International law is a type of law you can practice. Working with the occasional or even regular international client ≠ practicing international law.


There's no need to define international law so strictly. While I agree that budding law students have an unrealistic take on international law, there's no reason to draw the line at the WTO or the ICC. Practitioners certainly don't: --LinkRemoved--

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bk1
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby bk1 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:15 pm

grimfan wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:I think the problem is more that people use international law to describe a whole variety of things that don't fall within the specific domain of international law. A lot of them are actually more interested in other kinds of law, such as business, immigration, family, or human rights but want to do work either abroad or that has an actual dimension. Some of those things are actually fairly feasible.

Yeah, I agree with this statement. Unfortunately, I think a lot of 0Lers at TLS with huge internuts love to act big by belittling these people.

--ImageRemoved--

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SehMeSerrious
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby SehMeSerrious » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:54 am

fl0w wrote:The very first problem: I don't know French. Our prof straight up said, without actually using the word "required," that you've gotta know french to really cut it.


This guy (ICC judge) doesn't know French (or at least, doesn't feel comfortable enough to say that he does):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Fulford

It actually came up in Lubanga's trial, they were only given a few minutes to look over some documents and they were in French with no translations or translator. French is the other working language of the ICC so it's possible to argue that it wasn't necessary, but Mr. Fulford complained about it (as I'm sure others did) by saying that there wasn't any provision for "those of us that do not speak French." The defense was obviously trying to minimize what they could take from the documents (it was thousands of pages and they got something like an hour or two to look through it all) but still.

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Mick Haller
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:03 pm

romothesavior wrote:
englawyer wrote:if people want to just live internationally and practice law, that seems pretty viable, at least at HLS. [/quote]
Ding ding ding.


But even large international firms are downsizing their overseas offices because they are not profitable. Even among people headed to big firms, the chances of working overseas are still fairly small.

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SehMeSerrious
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Re: PSA: You will not work in "international law"

Postby SehMeSerrious » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:20 pm

This looks pretty interesting:
http://www.bakermckenzie.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_%26_McKenzie

Annecdote:
http://www.bakermckenzie.com/FCMakingGl ... riageWork/

They're an international law firm that works with businesses and governments in issues of compliance, drafting regulation/laws that meet international standards, and help do risk analysis and advise companies/governments/other entities regarding compliance, corruption, etc.




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