Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:05 pm

sven wrote:
Grizz wrote:
sven wrote:
OK, so let's say that one is interested in international trade law. She has some (minimal but prestigious) experience studying/teaching abroad and can get into a CCN school. Is it naive to think that she would have actual options for a career in the field?

What do you want to do? What job do you want to have?


Haha the plan isn't very well-formed, but here's an ideal: In the near term, working on transactions at a big firm that would ideally enable some travel between the firm's international offices. In the far term, helping to negotiate trade agreements or maybe working for the WTO.

Cross-border transactional work is largely a corporate undertaking involving statutory interpretation in different jurisdictions. None of which you'll likely do in your first few years at a firm.

Negotiating transnational, multilateral, and bilateral trade agreements (WTO, FTAs, and BITs) is a much more government-regulatory endeavor. You'd want to be working for the USTR as it negotiates its trade agreement.

WTO litigation is nigh impossible to get involved with except for a few DC firms, since so much of it settles and very few cases are filed in any given year. These firms occasionally represent foreign governments (since I'm under the impression that the USTR doesn't send that work out) in WTO cases. There are also domestic international trade cases before the international court of trade, but many of those involve issues of the appropriate level of border tariffs on imported/exported goods. Quite honestly, you might have a better chance being an academic in the international trade field than an actual practitioner.

All-in-all, these careers are very rare, but not completely impossible from the right schools and with the right connections. They're just rather different and may not lead naturally to one another.

sven
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby sven » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:07 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
sven wrote:
Grizz wrote:
sven wrote:
OK, so let's say that one is interested in international trade law. She has some (minimal but prestigious) experience studying/teaching abroad and can get into a CCN school. Is it naive to think that she would have actual options for a career in the field?

What do you want to do? What job do you want to have?


Haha the plan isn't very well-formed, but here's an ideal: In the near term, working on transactions at a big firm that would ideally enable some travel between the firm's international offices. In the far term, helping to negotiate trade agreements or maybe working for the WTO.

Cross-border transactional work is largely a corporate undertaking involving statutory interpretation in different jurisdictions. None of which you'll likely do in your first few years at a firm.

Negotiating transnational, multilateral, and bilateral trade agreements (WTO, FTAs, and BITs) is a much more government-regulatory endeavor. You'd want to be working for the USTR as it negotiates its trade agreement.

WTO litigation is nigh impossible to get involved with except for a few DC firms, since so much of it settles and very few cases are filed in any given year. These firms occasionally represent foreign governments (since I'm under the impression that the USTR doesn't send that work out) in WTO cases. There are also domestic international trade cases before the international court of trade, but many of those involve issues of the appropriate level of border tariffs on imported/exported goods. Quite honestly, you might have a better chance being an academic in the international trade field than an actual practitioner.

All-in-all, these careers are very rare, but not completely impossible from the right schools and with the right connections. They're just rather different and may not lead naturally to one another.


Thank you.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:13 pm

sven wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:Hey man, if you go to Georgetown or Michigan you will have an uphill battle getting "international" law.

Also, if you are talking international corporate work, you are basically saying "London," "Hong Kong," or "Tokyo." Outside of these three there is a ton of work in Beijing and Shanghai, but you probably need fluency in Chinese to do it, or need to make partner and lateral first.

If you are talking human rights stuff, do you speak French? If not, it will be hard to find the work. I would learn it while in law school to have a good shot.


London's great; I would love to work there for a few years. And I'm thinking about Columbia/NYU. Does that make any of my goals more realistic? As I mentioned above, I have no interest in human rights (in the professional sense). Also, out of curiosity, are any litigators involved in international trade matters, or is it just a transactional attorney domain?


Litigators are involved in arbitration, but it is really hard to get. I don't think very many associates do it (I could be wrong, this might change based upon the firm). Some firms also have commercial litigation departments in London. I think Allen & Overy is one of these.

For London, you either need to find a firm with a satellite office, work at home base in the US, and transfer after 3 years, or work at a firm that hires directly into their satellite offices (few).

CCN is probably the lowest you should go in terms of having a shot at these offices. I know that we have 6 or so of these offices interviewing at Chicago for OCI.

The advantages of NYU and Columbia is that they have large LLM classes and professors who can teach of variety of interesting international law classes. Also, if you want to take the home office, then transfer model, NYU and Columbia will give you an awesome shot at almost all New York firms.

The advantage of Chicago is that the class size is small, and you really will have a shot at these firms right off the bat from the median. Because few actually want these jobs as a first choice, you can really gun for them and have a good shot from the top 60-70 percent or so, depending on the firm.

sven
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby sven » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:26 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:The advantages of NYU and Columbia is that they have large LLM classes and professors who can teach of variety of interesting international law classes. Also, if you want to take the home office, then transfer model, NYU and Columbia will give you an awesome shot at almost all New York firms.

The advantage of Chicago is that the class size is small, and you really will have a shot at these firms right off the bat from the median. Because few actually want these jobs as a first choice, you can really gun for them and have a good shot from the top 60-70 percent or so, depending on the firm.


Thanks! I hadn't really considered Chicago before, but this is a good perspective. There's no real difference between NYU and Columbia, though, right?

tronredo
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby tronredo » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:33 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:Hey man, if you go to Georgetown or Michigan you will have an uphill battle getting "international" law.

Also, if you are talking international corporate work, you are basically saying "London," "Hong Kong," or "Tokyo." Outside of these three there is a ton of work in Beijing and Shanghai, but you probably need fluency in Chinese to do it, or need to make partner and lateral first.

If you are talking human rights stuff, do you speak French? If not, it will be hard to find the work. I would learn it while in law school to have a good shot.


Je parle tres comfortablement le francais. Merci.

I really want to to international trade law. I want to set up an intergovernmental organization that will fight for better trade contracts between developed and underdeveloped countries. Chinese was my foreign language in college.

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Emma.
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby Emma. » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:03 pm

tronredo wrote:
I really want to to international trade law. I want to set up an intergovernmental organization that will fight for better trade contracts between developed and underdeveloped countries.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Go big or go home, I guess.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:08 pm

tronredo wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:Hey man, if you go to Georgetown or Michigan you will have an uphill battle getting "international" law.

Also, if you are talking international corporate work, you are basically saying "London," "Hong Kong," or "Tokyo." Outside of these three there is a ton of work in Beijing and Shanghai, but you probably need fluency in Chinese to do it, or need to make partner and lateral first.

If you are talking human rights stuff, do you speak French? If not, it will be hard to find the work. I would learn it while in law school to have a good shot.


Je parle tres comfortablement le francais. Merci.

I really want to to international trade law. I want to set up an intergovernmental organization that will fight for better trade contracts between developed and underdeveloped countries. Chinese was my foreign language in college.


wtf is this I dont even

This guy is either going to be famous in 20 years for saving the world, or he's going to die in his cardboard box after contracting multiple diseases from flipping tricks on the streets.

Or, you know, he'll get a normal biglaw job like the rest of us.

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dr123
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby dr123 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:21 pm

Emma. wrote:
tronredo wrote:
I really want to to international trade law. I want to set up an intergovernmental organization that will fight for better trade contracts between developed and underdeveloped countries.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Go big or go home, I guess.


I dont think you really even need a law degree to do that.

tronredo
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby tronredo » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:02 am

dr123 wrote:
Emma. wrote:
tronredo wrote:
I really want to to international trade law. I want to set up an intergovernmental organization that will fight for better trade contracts between developed and underdeveloped countries.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Go big or go home, I guess.


I dont think you really even need a law degree to do that.


A law degree will just add credibility to my ambition. People who matter are more likely to listen to someone who has JD credentials than just a Bachelors. I'm also going to law school for the connections.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:00 pm

tronredo wrote:
dr123 wrote:
Emma. wrote:
tronredo wrote:
I really want to to international trade law. I want to set up an intergovernmental organization that will fight for better trade contracts between developed and underdeveloped countries.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Go big or go home, I guess.


I dont think you really even need a law degree to do that.


A law degree will just add credibility to my ambition. People who matter are more likely to listen to someone who has JD credentials than just a Bachelors. I'm also going to law school for the connections.


LAWL

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Grizz
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby Grizz » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:10 pm

tronredo wrote:
dr123 wrote:
Emma. wrote:
tronredo wrote:
I really want to to international trade law. I want to set up an intergovernmental organization that will fight for better trade contracts between developed and underdeveloped countries.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Go big or go home, I guess.


I dont think you really even need a law degree to do that.


A law degree will just add credibility to my ambition. People who matter are more likely to listen to someone who has JD credentials than just a Bachelors. I'm also going to law school for the connections.


You're setting yourself up to be very displeased.

sven
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby sven » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:38 pm

sven wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:The advantages of NYU and Columbia is that they have large LLM classes and professors who can teach of variety of interesting international law classes. Also, if you want to take the home office, then transfer model, NYU and Columbia will give you an awesome shot at almost all New York firms.

The advantage of Chicago is that the class size is small, and you really will have a shot at these firms right off the bat from the median. Because few actually want these jobs as a first choice, you can really gun for them and have a good shot from the top 60-70 percent or so, depending on the firm.


Thanks! I hadn't really considered Chicago before, but this is a good perspective. There's no real difference between NYU and Columbia, though, right?


If it's OK, I just wanted to get back to the slightly-less-quixotic topic that I had inserted into this thread. Can anyone answer this last question of mine? I had made a thread about it before, but I didn't really get any informed opinions.

concurrent fork
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby concurrent fork » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:24 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Shooter wrote:Also, obviously go to Georgetown. It has way more lay prestige internationally.

--ImageRemoved--

criminally underrated. that is all.

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quiver
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby quiver » Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:53 pm

This thread was going places...then:
tronredo wrote:I really want to to international trade law. I want to set up an intergovernmental organization that will fight for better trade contracts between developed and underdeveloped countries.

FWIW, Allen & Overy seems to be the closest thing to international law. I interviewed there and everyone I interviewed with had spent time abroad; most of them frequently, and about half of them for extended periods (they have a program where you can spend six months in one of their foreign offices). They're a small NY office and still growing but probably present the best opportunity to practice internationally IMHO (at least in a firm).

CynicusRex
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby CynicusRex » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:16 am

sven wrote:Haha the plan isn't very well-formed, but here's an ideal: In the near term, working on transactions at a big firm that would ideally enable some travel between the firm's international offices. In the far term, helping to negotiate trade agreements or maybe working for the WTO.


You do realize either of those jobs are obtained at the end of a long career, not the beginning, right?

sfalloon
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby sfalloon » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:38 am

I considered the whole idea of speciality ranking v overall ranking for quiet sometime. I think overall rankings are more important in many cases, simply because of name recognition.

I may be wrong but I have found the education wtr the legal field is quite different from other areas, like the science for instance, where speciality may out weigh overall ranking. If you are thinking of entering a typical BigLaw firm or even the legal department of some major Corporations, overall rankings are the better way to go.
On the other hand if you are really committed this areas of law, purely from a scholastic stand point, then speciality rankings may be more suiting.

There are other things to consider however, at least for me there were/are. My interest in international law lies in its effect on trade and policy development (particularly policies affect human rights and soverignty). Ideally I would like to work in government (not necessarily in the US) in one of there ways or all three if possible: [list=](1)analysing treaties, conventions, accords etc. to develope papers/ policy for their adaptation to/implimentation;[/list][list=](2) Analyzing similar documents for ratification are also of interest; [/list] [list=](3) Assists in the development of trade policy within and external to the country/region in which I am employed [/list]

For me really understanding international law is more important, so experiencing diffrent legal systems is also important. I opted to look at schools that had a good international law programme and strong study abroad programmes for law students. I also looked for schools that were open to language study. I tried to find out their stance on the law and policy where possible.
At the same time, I had to take into account my financial reality: (1) the need to work while in school, which meant a part time programme
(2) the fact that shortly I would have dependent non-american resident parents (my family does not live here); which means the less expensive school the better.
(3) considering my parents I also had to find a programme or a method that would allow me to transition to their jurisdiction with realtive ease on completion.

In short, while the ranking issue is a ligitimate question, there are several other issues that you need to take into consideration. I do hope you have and will not base your decision entirely on rank issue.

Good luck.

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coldshoulder
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Re: Specialty ranking vs Overall ranking in International Law

Postby coldshoulder » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:43 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Shooter wrote:Also, obviously go to Georgetown. It has way more lay prestige internationally.

--ImageRemoved--


+10000000000000




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